Feds reply to Cali Prop 19

[mean mr.mustard]

Also, it is illegal to give your children sips of beer or wine but everyone does it. I even see people do it in restaurants.

This isn't true in many states. You can actually buy your child a beer under your supervision in some states.

I would like to see the comparison of grass to alcohol fade somewhat, but it seems that we will have to lump them in together simply because we are seeking legislation.

 

[Preacher]

I witnessed a prime example of this bullshit feeding last night.
On Bill O'Reilly he often posts up emails he gets from viewers, and last night one of them was from some leo. I am paraphrasing but it went like this:
"O'Reilly, I have been a beat cop for 27 years and have arrested dozens of hard drug abusers during that time. The vast majority of them started out using pot."

I am sure O'Reilly had no problem posting that up, as it is in line with his position. However, had I been the host of the show, I would not post up such bullshit. First off, did this leo interview each of his collars to find out this information? Surely we know that he was simply putting out his own take on things. His opinion and nothing more. I mean, anyone with any knowledge of leo and how things are done know that this dickhead did not know anything at all about what any of his arrests did when they started using drugs. He really knows no more than O'reilly does about any of them at all. How could he possibly?
See, he was just spouting off his opinion. And since he is a leo, the general public probably figures he is telling it straight. And surely O'Reilly wouldn't post up something that was challengeable without challenging it?
IMO O'Reilly was targeting the voting population of CA with that one. Just ten seconds of bullshit on his show could effect the vote.

That fallacy is never going away. What he said is probably true. The problem is it ignores the causal order, putting the effect before the cause, and making a nice post hoc fallacy for anyone who just has to believe weed is evil.

Heck, weed's not the real menace. I guarantee all those drug users had a problem with habitually using water in some form before even weed.

 

[bigbrokush]

Legalizing marijuana in California not the answer to drug war, federal official says

Legalizing marijuana in California not the answer to drug war, federal official says

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/lan...answer-to-drug-war-federal-official-says.html

Legalizing marijuana in California not the answer to drug war, federal official says
October 20, 2010 | 5:07 pm
The nation’s drug czar traveled to California to highlight his contention that legalizing marijuana is not the answer to a drug war he acknowledged has not succeeded.

Instead, Gil Kerlikowske stressed what he called a middle way: increased prevention and treatment.

Kerlikowske’s stated reason for the drop-in visit Wednesday was an invitation from the Pasadena Recovery Center to participate in a round-table with drug treatment specialists that lasted less than half an hour.

Before the event, he spoke to the media about his opposition to Proposition 19.

“The facts are that this proposition would not be helpful to the people of California,” he said, insisting that it would not solve the state’s budget crisis or reduce Mexican drug violence.

He also dismissed the argument made by proponents that children would have less access to marijuana if it were regulated, noting that children can still find alcohol and cigarettes.

“Why do we think that we can suddenly do it with marijuana, which can be grown in a backyard?” he asked. “I think it’s such a false promise.”

The Obama administration has cranked up its efforts to defeat the measure.

Last week, U.S. Atty. Gen. Eric Holder said he would “vigorously enforce” federal narcotics laws, even if voters approved the measure Nov. 2, and “is considering all available legal and policy options.”

Stephen Gutwillig, the state director for the Drug Policy Alliance, said he was not surprised the drug czar found his way to California. “They have to fly people in from D.C. with the news flash that the federal government opposes marijuana,” he said. “I’m shocked, shocked.”

Kerlikowske also released an analysis that showed 47% of Californians receiving treatment for marijuana are younger than 18, compared to 28% in the rest of the nation, and 65% began using marijuana at 14 or younger, compared to 55% for the rest of the nation.

Gutwillig said the analysis underscores that the drug war has failed.

 

[bigbrokush]

I don't know what happen to the first time I posted it

 

[♥Mo♥]

Does prop19 have a true amendment clause? If not, see Kelly. If so, I'm sure its pretty difficult to get that stuff amended since its directly voter approved.
Its not about blowing smoke in your kids face, its about freedom, the very principle this country was founded on.

I want to hear your reasoning as to why a "free man" should have to buy his bud from a licensed distributor when he lives down the block from a clean, organic farmer. Call me picky, but I'd rather buy my products from the source. I'm sure the bud from the licsenced place is "fine" in most aspects. But I want the freedom to buy from whoever I want. But we dont have that freedom. Not because it will hurt somebody, but because the government wants their cut. I dont support moneyholic's greedy grubby hands in my pocket, and neither should you.
Its not the biggest example of an infringement of freedoms, but it is to a degree (however small one wants to deem it)

BTW: Sacramento doesn't have a revenue problem, it has a spending problem. Extra money NEVER fixes a spending problem, may just make it worse.

I fail to see your argument here if you truly understand prop.19's wording. You will be able to "purchase" bud from a licensed retailer, and you can "share" up to one ounce. Meet your so called clean, organic growing neighbor and share. How could that be any clearer and why is that so bad?

 

[zen_trikester]

I want to hear your reasoning as to why a "free man" should have to buy his bud from a licensed distributor when he lives down the block from a clean, organic farmer. Call me picky, but I'd rather buy my products from the source. I'm sure the bud from the licsenced place is "fine" in most aspects. But I want the freedom to buy from whoever I want. But we dont have that freedom. Not because it will hurt somebody, but because the government wants their cut. I dont support moneyholic's greedy grubby hands in my pocket, and neither should you.
Its not the biggest example of an infringement of freedoms, but it is to a degree (however small one wants to deem it)

Are you serious? Marijuana is drug my friend NOT a tomato plant. Why do you think it would be OK to by drugs from a farmstand? MJ is safe yes, but there is a certain level of responsibility that has to be accounted for within society.

This plant has more value per ounce than gold and goes up in smoke a few weeks later. Why should one of the most expensive items on the market NOT be part of the economy like every other product? Why should we not want it regulated to make sure we are getting safe product and to keep it out of the hands of kids? the kid issue is huge and if that isn't accounted for in any similar prop the prop simply wont pass the non-using voters and that is still the majority of the voters. Again, this prop is about compromise and it has to be that way or it will never get the votes.

A free man can grow his own organic love and that is written in stone in this prop. Every Californian will have that right if that passes but yet this isn't freedom? I don't follow you at all on that! If the organic farmer down the road has a permit for an outlet and a grow facility then you can go buy direct from him, and I bet there will be plenty of those situations as well.

Jed

 

[rick shaw]

Now that's a farmers market I am looking forward to.I'm sure the NCGA,the north coast growers association would support it.

 

[zenoonez]

Are you serious? Marijuana is drug my friend NOT a tomato plant. Why do you think it would be OK to by drugs from a farmstand? MJ is safe yes, but there is a certain level of responsibility that has to be accounted for within society.

This plant has more value per ounce than gold and goes up in smoke a few weeks later. Why should one of the most expensive items on the market NOT be part of the economy like every other product? Why should we not want it regulated to make sure we are getting safe product and to keep it out of the hands of kids? the kid issue is huge and if that isn't accounted for in any similar prop the prop simply wont pass the non-using voters and that is still the majority of the voters. Again, this prop is about compromise and it has to be that way or it will never get the votes.

A free man can grow his own organic love and that is written in stone in this prop. Every Californian will have that right if that passes but yet this isn't freedom? I don't follow you at all on that! If the organic farmer down the road has a permit for an outlet and a grow facility then you can go buy direct from him, and I bet there will be plenty of those situations as well.

Jed

The responsibility is all personal my friend. And either you don't keep up with the price of gold or you are trying to say things hoping people will not know you are bluffing. Gold closed at 1325.60 today per troy ounce. As far as I am concerned it should be able to be traded as an agricultural good just as beer should be perfectly legal to brew and liquors perfectly legal to distill as long as you are paying taxes on what you are selling.

 

[zen_trikester]

The responsibility is all personal my friend. And either you don't keep up with the price of gold or you are trying to say things hoping people will not know you are bluffing. Gold closed at 1325.60 today per troy ounce. As far as I am concerned it should be able to be traded as an agricultural good just as beer should be perfectly legal to brew and liquors perfectly legal to distill as long as you are paying taxes on what you are selling.

Ha ha! OK... so price of gold has gone up a bit since I last looked . Point is that is is far more valuable than any other agricultural product that you will see at a farmers market.

Beer is perfectly legal to brew, though liqueur distilling is a bit a of a different beast since stills blow up pretty commonly. It just wouldn't be safe for most Americans to run a still!

as for paying taxes on what you sell that is exactly what this prop is trying to do! I don't know what you mean about the responsibility being all personal. It would be great if the people of Cali just wanted pot to be like a tomato plant but who is going to vote for that? You and a few other smokers and growers. I'm a (personal use) grower and a daily smoker and although that seems like a novel concept I certainly don't want that. I want regulation because of the societal problems it will fix, the product quality and safety issues, and the kid usage issues. I think most reasonable adults see these things as a bare minimum for any change in MJ legislation. I am stunned when I hear these opinions and all I can think is that it is a few old hippies, a lot of kids, and some growers who want to grow and sell outside of the normal economic system. Again a novel concept but that ship sailed 40 or 50 years ago! If you ever think that MJ will just be treated like any other plant you are a complete fool. It never will be treated so simply because it is an intoxicating substance and worth money.

Jed

 

[wantaknow]

janet reno and all supream court judges need to be removed by any means nessary after the removal of abama

 

[Chronic Future]

Ha ha! OK... so price of gold has gone up a bit since I last looked .

where have you been at man gold has not been that low since 03 lol.

 

[Chronic Future]

Are you serious? Marijuana is drug my friend NOT a tomato plant.

marijuana is not a drug my friend god dont make no drugs, drugs are man made and dont grow out the ground. later

 

[IncredibowlBoss]

I'ma just throw this out there - I know there were a couple people arguing as to whether or not the sheriff is supposed to defend the people from the feds - I don't know about that.

What I know for certain is that the 2nd Amendment (to the US constitution) begins with the phrase "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State..." In 1902, the Dick Act was passed, also known as the Efficiency of Militia Bill - this act (HR 11654) created the 'Organized Militia' - known as the State National Guard.

What this all boils down to is that, in a technical, idealistic sense, Arnie should spark up a fatty and fulfill his responsibility to his citizens by deploying the California National Guard to fight off the feds. If Civil War 2 is over weed instead of slavery, I'd say our nation has come along nicely.

 

[igrowone]

I'ma just throw this out there - I know there were a couple people arguing as to whether or not the sheriff is supposed to defend the people from the feds - I don't know about that.

What I know for certain is that the 2nd Amendment (to the US constitution) begins with the phrase "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State..." In 1902, the Dick Act was passed, also known as the Efficiency of Militia Bill - this act (HR 11654) created the 'Organized Militia' - known as the State National Guard.

What this all boils down to is that, in a technical, idealistic sense, Arnie should spark up a fatty and fulfill his responsibility to his citizens by deploying the California National Guard to fight off the feds. If Civil War 2 is over weed instead of slavery, I'd say our nation has come along nicely.

wouldn't that be quite the CNN lead show?
i doubt things will play out that way, too much for the federal side to lose in bad publicity
that could be the beginning of the end of this failed prohibition
if prop 19 passes, i'm sure there is going to be one hell of a sit down session with state and federals
there will probably be some kind of uneasy compromise
but there is of course the potential for some more confrontational situations, thinking Oakland might be willing to push it a bit

 

[IncredibowlBoss]

wouldn't that be quite the CNN lead show?
i doubt things will play out that way, too much for the federal side to lose in bad publicity
that could be the beginning of the end of this failed prohibition
if prop 19 passes, i'm sure there is going to be one hell of a sit down session with state and federals
there will probably be some kind of uneasy compromise
but there is of course the potential for some more confrontational situations, thinking Oakland might be willing to push it a bit

The actual situation will probably be dull and slow with a good bit of grandstanding, some trophy busts, and eventual gradual progress towards increased liberty... but I think I'm gonna write a short story about Arnold hiring gang members to be the militia that fights off the DEA - because I'd really like it to happen that way :yay:

 

[zenoonez]

Ha ha! OK... so price of gold has gone up a bit since I last looked . Point is that is is far more valuable than any other agricultural product that you will see at a farmers market.

Beer is perfectly legal to brew, though liqueur distilling is a bit a of a different beast since stills blow up pretty commonly. It just wouldn't be safe for most Americans to run a still!

as for paying taxes on what you sell that is exactly what this prop is trying to do! I don't know what you mean about the responsibility being all personal. It would be great if the people of Cali just wanted pot to be like a tomato plant but who is going to vote for that? You and a few other smokers and growers. I'm a (personal use) grower and a daily smoker and although that seems like a novel concept I certainly don't want that. I want regulation because of the societal problems it will fix, the product quality and safety issues, and the kid usage issues. I think most reasonable adults see these things as a bare minimum for any change in MJ legislation. I am stunned when I hear these opinions and all I can think is that it is a few old hippies, a lot of kids, and some growers who want to grow and sell outside of the normal economic system. Again a novel concept but that ship sailed 40 or 50 years ago! If you ever think that MJ will just be treated like any other plant you are a complete fool. It never will be treated so simply because it is an intoxicating substance and worth money.

Jed

As to it being the most expensive item... it depends, I have bought purebred dogs at farmers markets, I have also bought wines, truffles, caviar around the world. As to it being unsafe to operate a still, sure if you don't know anything about a still, how it works, the dangers, you are an idiot it is dangerous. But the same can be said of a number of tools that are available freely for us to use today. That ship sailed long ago when American began selling her soul(freedom) for safety. I am none of the things you have listed, I am a libertarian minded person who thinks that the government has their hands in everything we let them have their hands in and we have let them have their hands in far too much already. As to your ad hominem, lets keep this civil, I am no fool and neither are you. I simply operate on the idea that the government needs to keep its hands to itself unless there is a compelling public safety reason for them not to.

 

[zen_trikester]

As to it being the most expensive item... it depends, I have bought purebred dogs at farmers markets, I have also bought wines, truffles, caviar around the world. As to it being unsafe to operate a still, sure if you don't know anything about a still, how it works, the dangers, you are an idiot it is dangerous. But the same can be said of a number of tools that are available freely for us to use today. That ship sailed long ago when American began selling her soul(freedom) for safety. I am none of the things you have listed, I am a libertarian minded person who thinks that the government has their hands in everything we let them have their hands in and we have let them have their hands in far too much already. As to your ad hominem, lets keep this civil, I am no fool and neither are you. I simply operate on the idea that the government needs to keep its hands to itself unless there is a compelling public safety reason for them not to.

Fair enough zeno... We obviously won't ever see eye to eye on that issue and we are obviously very different. When I said "a fool" I wasn't saying a fool wants that. I am saying that a fool would believe it will ever happen. Certainloy you must know that your views are not shared by the masses. We all would like to see a little less control by the feds in most facets of our lives. Legalizing Marijuana is a big step in that direction regardless of the fact that it will be regulated.

Jed

 

[zen_trikester]

marijuana is not a drug my friend god dont make no drugs, drugs are man made and dont grow out the ground. later

I love that beautiful plant as much as you do my friend but it is a drug. Many drugs are plant based, obviously. I understand what you guys are saying you want and people have been wanting that for years! MJ has been bastardized for 80 years guys. there is too much damage! It has only been very recently that pot was even mildly excepted by non-users. I guess if some people still want to hold onto that they can, but there is no way it will ever happen regardless of prop 19.

Jed

 

[zenoonez]

Fair enough zeno... We obviously won't ever see eye to eye on that issue and we are obviously very different. When I said "a fool" I wasn't saying a fool wants that. I am saying that a fool would believe it will ever happen. Certainloy you must know that your views are not shared by the masses. We all would like to see a little less control by the feds in most facets of our lives. Legalizing Marijuana is a big step in that direction regardless of the fact that it will be regulated.

Jed

Rep for being able to agree to disagree. Remember though that the only way we will ever achieve the ideals we hope for is through the consequence of standing against that which fails to meet our standards. I hope more than anything for legalization but without borders, without regulations, without the government's consideration into what role it plays in our lives. In short I dream of our freedom, true freedom. Cheers for a good discussion.

 

[zen_trikester]

Rep for being able to agree to disagree. Remember though that the only way we will ever achieve the ideals we hope for is through the consequence of standing against that which fails to meet our standards. I hope more than anything for legalization but without borders, without regulations, without the government's consideration into what role it plays in our lives. In short I dream of our freedom, true freedom. Cheers for a good discussion.

I would have said "standing together against", but as I said we are different people. +R

Jed