Ebb & Flow problems - plants seem small

[newbie2006]

Ok, thanks for the input!

The roots are almost all white, some brown here and there but 90% white, might be the kelp though, but looking and smelling good.

I will bring down flood times and calm down with the ferts, renewing reservoir water today (plus cleaning the tanks fully to get the kelp stuff off), any tips on the EC I should target to?

I have, as I said, GHE FloraBloom, FloraMicro and AN Big Bud, B-52 and Bud Candy. The kelp did no good, so I will skip it.. Cannot remember what of those AN products has it, but the moment I saw it I smelled trouble..

Should I aim for about 0,7EC (0,5 conversion) ???

It just seemed that last grow just exploded in flower too much, 15cm (almost 6 inch!) between internodes! Then I went with just Lucas formula and HESI Supervit and some fulvic acid, running EC's about high as these ones.. But then the light was fixed at 140cm from table, now it's hanging at about 70-80cm..

And I figured if I lower the EC/ppm then the internode spacing will be like 10 inch or something..

WTF I am doing wrong here..

 

[newbie2006]

Moldy mushroomy growth

Moldy mushroomy growth

Hello again..

After I made that last post, this weird mold looking thing started growing in the reservoirs, and this #3 reservoir was hit the most, the #1 and #2 only had very little amounts of this.

Any idea what it is?

I have already flushed all of those fluids out of the systems, cleaned them with water and scrubbed them 99,9% clean of the brown sludge-like film they had on them.. Put in new liquids without any Advanced Nutrients products, and only 500ppm.

And in case this thing comes back and starts to rot my roots or whatever, how should I prepare?

Heeeeeeeeeeeelp

Here are the pics;

And the closeup where you can see that it's partly mushroomy, partly moldy looking..

And is 500ppm too little nutrients for flowering plants (2 weeks into 12/12) ?????????

 

[guambomb813]

is your rez covered at all times?

anyways how big were your roots before transplanting ?! It's possible you've started your cycle with too little root system, then your shorter veg time couldn't make up for the growth?

How often are you flooding?

GL

 

[Rednick]

If you have surface fungi growing, then I would ask one question.
Stagnation???
You should only have enough flood time to fill the vessel.
Then drain, for best results.

Light leaks would produce Algae, green most likely.

The fungi isn't always bad, depends on what type.

Are your cubes touching water???
Should just use wicking action of Hydroton.

Next time, more roots, lots of them.

Personally I would just through the bitches in good soil, veg photoperiod for another week or two and do it that way.

 

[teemu shalanie]

tooo small to flip those lil bitchs
gotta veg longer/grow more roots
peaceTS

 

[Mr. Stinky]

could they be re-vegging a bit? kinda looks like that.

and mold only grows on organic material. probably dead algae in the res? 1tsp/gallon of 35% h202 will kill everything in there.

 

[Saran]

Dude that things disgusting and I'd dump it all save the plants best I could,, then break the system down clean out that room and bleach wash all the tools, containers, trays and reservoir and be sure to include the plumbing basically sterilize that room as is that thing has the potential to produce air borne problems for inhabitants . Reassemble and refit the poor plants . Start with a basic 50% strength of one of the popular formulas KISS or Lucas comes to mind first -- no additives or treatments,,,, as a precaution I'd replace nutes after three days of operation and a week after that working my way up to full strength . Check your room temps loose that plastic tarping over the roots so they breath something tells me it got pretty dank under there . Move the air in the room with a fan, maybe confirm what you know about Ebb & Flo and make sure your system is operating along the basic needs . Then let them be for a bit,, like three or four days . They'll boom with growth . I'm no plant doctor it just my gut reaction and what I think I'd try .

 

[newbie2006]

On the big questionnaire thing I did on the page 1 answers all of your questions.

And as I said, I have cleaned the systems and I hope that I will be alright from now on.

I am 100% positive that this thing was caused by the kelp algae used in one of those AN products.

I will update here how things go.

Vegging is a waste of time. Its fucking 12/12 all the time in India where cannabis originates from. No veg time, so why should I force the plants to something they don't want to do?

I mean, sure, 2 weeks a bit too little maybe but I have ran NFT for years before this and 2 weeks in an NFT was like 12 weeks in this E&F system - I am probably doing it all wrong, flooding too often cubes too deep etc, but even when done by E&F professionals, it seems that the growthrate is just way below NFT.

 

[est1977]

you need water movement throw an air stone in the rez

 

[est1977]

On the big questionnaire thing I did on the page 1 answers all of your questions.

And as I said, I have cleaned the systems and I hope that I will be alright from now on.

I am 100% positive that this thing was caused by the kelp algae used in one of those AN products.

I will update here how things go.

Vegging is a waste of time. Its fucking 12/12 all the time in India where cannabis originates from. No veg time, so why should I force the plants to something they don't want to do?

I mean, sure, 2 weeks a bit too little maybe but I have ran NFT for years before this and 2 weeks in an NFT was like 12 weeks in this E&F system - I am probably doing it all wrong, flooding too often cubes too deep etc, but even when done by E&F professionals, it seems that the growth rate is just way below NFT.

Vegging isn't a waste of time that's how you establish your growth for flower ,How often are you flooding ,for how long ? or is that a continuous water bath ? If your roots aren't getting enough oxygen that also could be stunting your plant growth. put an air stone in your res.But your Plant strain might be an issue also, because if you run something that doesn't stretch a lot transitioning into flower ,you might have needed a longer veg time

 

[newbie2006]

Hehehe..

I was exaggerating a bit there, yes..

But I know I have to get my shit dialed in on this E&F thing before I can really say whats better NFT or E&F..

This system #3's sativa is probably best suited for a fast veg - no veg SOG style growing.

I took a chance, and I blew it partly, going with Super Skunk and L.S.D (barneys) instead of good old Skunk #1 and Jack Herer/SSH/g13haze type combination (which have worked for me in a 1 veg week type of growing VERY NICELY)

We will see how this one goes, I planned to run them in low ppm's for a few weeks now before giving them some P & K heavy fresh juices..

Of course we're always looking for the sativa growth power packed with indica buds in the same package... I think I got one like that in the LSD's but gotta know your cuts before you can start really reaping it, right?

 

[newbie2006]

PHOTO UPDATE

Side #1 - LSD phenos #1 & #2

Side #2 - Super Skunk phenos #2 and #3

Side #3 - Zamal or White Himalayan Haze and Super Skunk pheno #3 cut + two LSD pheno #1 fuckedupcuttings

Comments and advices are welcome, as these are going straight towards motherfucking overdose ph disease pest everything all the time so basically I am dead any second now

 

[teemu shalanie]

Vegging waste of time
?, I say growing small lilttle plants with no branches tyo produce buds is a waste of time ,but thats just imo.....
are you using h2o2, every 2 days? that should help control growth of slim in res?
good luck.
peace TS

 

[newbie2006]

I have had VERY good results with no veg time, that's all.

No H2O2 in my system, hell no.

At least as long as I feel that I have it under control.

I don't want to destroy the good bacteria too.

Should I just add P-K feed, no N?

 

[newbie2006]

The plants are about 6-8 weeks away from chop. I took the pics yesterday.

Looks like shit, I know! But I am sure I will get something out of these..

System #1

LSD pheno #1 -

System #2

Super Skunk pheno 3 -

Super Skunk pheno 3 lil cutting, showing the whole plant, its going to be a armsize bud -

System #3

Super Skunk pheno 3 -

Sativa -

Same spot, closeup on the middle bud -

And I even took a shot of the mothers -

..

And then onto problems.. I wonder what is causing this?

Both affected are Super Skunks from System #2

Symptoms -

&

&

...

Tips, comments, fuck-off shouts, everything is welcome!

 

[JohnnyHopkins]

How long has this problem been going on? For the whole duration of grow

Are you growing in a PVC grow tent? No

What system are you running? Ebb&Flow

What STRAIN are you growing? LSD, Super Skunk and Zamal x White Widow

What was the establishing technique? (Were the seed or clone?) Clones

What is the age of your plants? 27 days

How long have they been in there mixture they are in now?(coco,soiless etc..) Whole time

How tall are the plants? around 30cm

What PHASE are the plants in? 12/12 been on about 8 days.

What Technique are you using? Ebb&flood, RW cubes on top of 2,5cm (1 inch) hydroton layer

What substrate/medium are you using? RW and hydroton

What is the Water temperature? 18-20C

What color are your roots? White? Brown? Are your roots slimy? White 99,5%, some brown somewhere but the enzymes are hacking those parts up pretty quickly.

What Nutrient's are you using? Lucas Formula, fed it week into flower then added AN Big Bud, Bud Candy and B-52 plus Grotek Pro-Silicate and HESI Supervit and Bio Nova BN-Zym enzymes. Plus in veg I foliar fed Very High Output from Advanced Nutrients, according to dose almost but in the last 3 days of veg I gave them already the 1200ppm full dose sprayings..

How much of each nutrient are you using with how much water? According to directions

How often are you feeding? The pump is on once an hour 7-10mins

How often are you giving nutrients? Every feeding

If flowering, when did you switch over to using Bloom nutrients? About 36 hours ago

What order are you mixing your nutrients? First the lucas, then the rest, last pH down adjustments.

What is the TDS/EC/PPM you are using? 1.4-1.6 in veg now 1.0 EC.

What is the pH of the "Tank"? 5.4-6.5 adding pH down every now and then when it gets too high over a period of a few days.

How often are you testing your pH/PPM/EC/TDS? Every few days.

Are you sure your calibration is correct on your equipment? Yes.

When was your last watering? An hour ago I think

What is your water temps? 18-20C

When was your last feeding change? Roughly 2 days ago

How often do you clean your system: example: Flush out water replace with clean water and nutrients? Plan to flush in 2 weeks time, haven't flushed yet.

What size bulb are you using? 730w sulphur plasma, LG, 4500K

How old is the bulbs you are using? Few months

What is the distance to the canopy? about 100cm or 3 feet, but got some chain to hang the light about 50cm or just under 2 feet from the plants.

What is your RH Factor(Relative Humidity)? 30-50%

What is the canopy temperature? 22-24C

What is the Day/Night Temp? 20-25C

What is the current Air Flow? Free flowing ventilation, door open to growspace

Tell us about your ventilation, intake exhaust and when its running and not running ? No mechanical ventilation

Is the fan blowing directly at plants? Occasionally

Is your water HARD or SOFT? Soft

What water are you using? Tap

If using tap water, what is the ppm/EC/TDS of the water right out of the tap? 0.2 EC

Are you using water from a water softener? No

Has plant been recently pruned, cloned off of or pinched? No

Have any pest chemicals been used? If so, What and When? No

Are plant's infected with pest's? No



.......


There ya go, that was an awful lot of questions.

Hopefully now you get a better picture!

That question thing def helps alot. First i would say that 18-20 celsius is a bit on the cold side. While the plants should still grow, they will grow faster and also be able to uptake more nutrients, light, and co2 at a warmer temperature like 21-24 degrees celsius. Secondly, a 5.5-6.5 is TOO much of a confusion for the plants and i wouldnt doubt if they are starting to lock out. try to keep it 5.6-5.9. Third, 1.4-1.6 seems too high for veg. I wont go above .7 in veg. I've always tried to keep my ppms on a steady rise from the beginning of veg to the end of flower if that makes sense. hopefully this helps!

 

[Rednick]

Vegging is a waste of time. Its fucking 12/12 all the time in India where cannabis originates from. No veg time, so why should I force the plants to something they don't want to do?

I would like to know what part of India you are talking about, haven't been there yet?


Oh yeah, fuck AN, overpriced shit!
Bro, just by reading your posts and looking at WHAT you are trying to accomplish, I think you should reconsider a more forgiving medium, like soil.
A lot of work going on with the Blumats, check out Lazyman. Automated soil...

In an E&F you NEED a good root system to start with, and that comes with VEG time. I have root-locked 4 gal buckets of Hydroton before because I vegged too long.

If you have organics in your res, which you do, evidenced by mold, you need AERATION. i.e. throw a stone in there on a pump or go dead res.

I feel that you should copy EXACTLY someone elses grow should you wish to continue E&F.
Or at least read some more and query some more as to why E&F works and stop arguing with us.


P.S. That kind of Chlorosis is definately a nute lockout/def (probably cal/mag), unless you have RA which you don't see bugs flying around so not likely. Most likely cause would be that large of a pH swing. Hydro doesn't take well to pH spikes, you are feeding the plant too directly, no buffers like soil, pH must be spot on everytime. I never swing more than a half point per 3 days on EF, one point on a week tops. e.g. when I go from 5.5 to 6.5 it is a gradual rise over AT LEAST one week.

"What Nutrient's are you using? Lucas Formula, fed it week into flower then added AN Big Bud, Bud Candy and B-52 plus Grotek Pro-Silicate and HESI Supervit and Bio Nova BN-Zym enzymes. Plus in veg I foliar fed Very High Output from Advanced Nutrients, according to dose almost but in the last 3 days of veg I gave them already the 1200ppm full dose sprayings.."

K.I.S.S...keep it simple stoner
Advanced will tell you you need all this shit cause it makes them $$$$.
'Zymes are normally associated with DWC and UC. In an EF your medium 'drys out' between watering to an extent, that is a central concept of E&F.

 

[newbie2006]

First i would say that 18-20 celsius is a bit on the cold side.

You do realize its the reservoir temperature? See, there's a different question for that - Or so I am assuming that you just looked at the wrong numbers while way too toked

Secondly, a 5.5-6.5 is TOO much of a confusion for the plants and i wouldnt doubt if they are starting to lock out. try to keep it 5.6-5.9.

Well, that 5.5 to 6.5 goes up and down way less that you might think. Usually it climbs up maybe 0.5 in a week (5 days or so).

Third, 1.4-1.6 seems too high for veg. I wont go above .7 in veg.

I know that these are high numbers BUT you have to consider that while going .7 on last grow with these same plants, they stretched to about 2 meters in height, so there's a reason why I kept them on high EC's.

I would like to know what part of India you are talking about, haven't been there yet?

To my knowledge, cannabis originated from valley of Hindu Kush, and according to hindu folklore some goddess went there and planted the first seeds, saying something like "This is to be your food, your medicine and your clothes."

I might be wrong though, so please correct me but this is what I have read from various locations.

Oh yeah, fuck AN, overpriced shit!

Yeah, the only products that I have to say that I believe that work are Very High Output and Overdrive (though VHO is something you can almost INSTANTLY see working while Overdrive doesn't do much, but still, something), and I won't be buying any of the other stuff later on anymore..

Bro, just by reading your posts and looking at WHAT you are trying to accomplish, I think you should reconsider a more forgiving medium, like soil.

I have been with hydro setups for about 7 years now (I know, its pathetic - according to the pictures I am the shittiest grower on earth), so I am not going to start over with all the learning. So sticking with the hydro. Although E&F might have been a bad choice - I mean, 6 of those years I did NFT. Which, I have to say, gives way better results with my style - as I don't like to veg long, NFT just worked wonders with my SOG's.

If you have organics in your res, which you do, evidenced by mold, you need AERATION. i.e. throw a stone in there on a pump or go dead res.

I know, it was that kelp stuff that made it go weird. Situation is under control however after cleaning, and I have not used the product containing the kelp anymore.

P.S. That kind of Chlorosis is definately a nute lockout/def (probably cal/mag)

Another member of ICmag community was saying the same thing to me on the Finnish forum - but he suspected more of Mg def than Cal.

I have sprayed the plants with cal+mag liquid I have made every now and then (not so often maybe every 2 weeks), but today I will just spray with magnesium.


Thanks for the replies guys, I really do appreciate this conversation. I know sometimes when I am way way too toked for any activity, some of my statements might appear a bit blunt, but try to bear with me!

 

[JohnnyHopkins]

You do realize its the reservoir temperature? See, there's a different question for that - Or so I am assuming that you just looked at the wrong numbers while way too toked



Well, that 5.5 to 6.5 goes up and down way less that you might think. Usually it climbs up maybe 0.5 in a week (5 days or so).



I know that these are high numbers BUT you have to consider that while going .7 on last grow with these same plants, they stretched to about 2 meters in height, so there's a reason why I kept them on high EC's.



To my knowledge, cannabis originated from valley of Hindu Kush, and according to hindu folklore some goddess went there and planted the first seeds, saying something like "This is to be your food, your medicine and your clothes."

I might be wrong though, so please correct me but this is what I have read from various locations.



Yeah, the only products that I have to say that I believe that work are Very High Output and Overdrive (though VHO is something you can almost INSTANTLY see working while Overdrive doesn't do much, but still, something), and I won't be buying any of the other stuff later on anymore..



I have been with hydro setups for about 7 years now (I know, its pathetic - according to the pictures I am the shittiest grower on earth), so I am not going to start over with all the learning. So sticking with the hydro. Although E&F might have been a bad choice - I mean, 6 of those years I did NFT. Which, I have to say, gives way better results with my style - as I don't like to veg long, NFT just worked wonders with my SOG's.



I know, it was that kelp stuff that made it go weird. Situation is under control however after cleaning, and I have not used the product containing the kelp anymore.



Another member of ICmag community was saying the same thing to me on the Finnish forum - but he suspected more of Mg def than Cal.

I have sprayed the plants with cal+mag liquid I have made every now and then (not so often maybe every 2 weeks), but today I will just spray with magnesium.


Thanks for the replies guys, I really do appreciate this conversation. I know sometimes when I am way way too toked for any activity, some of my statements might appear a bit blunt, but try to bear with me!

yes i do realize those are your rez temps. roots will grow quicker in temperatures they favor. for example, i tried to take clones in rapid rooters recently and didnt use a heat pad. it took them almost 4 weeks to root. put a heat pad under the dome and 6-7 days they were rooted. and the ph thing that i brought up.... again i would do what it takes to keep it between 5.6-5.9. I understand your plants may have stretched last time but i dont think that means you need to feed them so heavy.

anyways your new growth looks good i wouldnt try do spray it with this and that..... the more shit you add the more fucked up shit will get. make sure that water is aerated and all the enviromental conditions are good and that you dont feed to much and leave it alone

 

[guambomb813]

And then onto problems.. I wonder what is causing this?

Both affected are Super Skunks from System #2

Symptoms -

&

&

...

Tips, comments, fuck-off shouts, everything is welcome! [/quote]

When your looking to diagnose your issues with your girls you need to look at the effected areas of the leaf. Thats where all your signs come into play.

Start with the physical action the leaf is taking...I can see your leaf TIPS are curling down... that narrows it down a bit.

Next you look to see where your damage is occurring on the leaf...I can see that your leaf margins (the area between the veins) are the focus of your damage... that narrows down even more.

If I were to come to a diagnosis I would say you have a potassium deficiency due to both the curling down and yellowing of the margins. But normally you would see all/majority of your leaf tips curling downward as a major sign of potassium. If your damaged leaves have tips that dont show signs of tip curl then you could just have another non-related issue causing the tip curling.

With how spotted your margin damage is on one of those pics it could also be MG deficient.

Good luck! post more pics of damaged leaves would love to further help if i can.

Guam