-
ICMag with help from Landrace Warden and The Vault is running a NEW contest in November! You can check it here. Prizes are seeds & forum premium access. Come join in!
E-Cigarettes: A How-To With Canna
- Thread starter BadKittySmiles
- Start date
I don't see what the problem is if someone enjoys flavoring it. Not my thing but it raises possibilities.
how about mixing oil with oils from other herbs? For instance, a soporific hash oil mixed with mugwort oil or essence, so that you go to sleep and have crazy dreams?
Or mullein for lung issues, lavender to tone down a racy one, etc...
how about mixing oil with oils from other herbs? For instance, a soporific hash oil mixed with mugwort oil or essence, so that you go to sleep and have crazy dreams?
Or mullein for lung issues, lavender to tone down a racy one, etc...
P
pineolene
read thru, she already said no oils, that's why she uses artificial flavors. thanks for the neg rep! go take your crazy pills... you're much more fun when you are not being a moondick.
well she can do what she wants.
I'm wondering about the possibility of combing concentrates to create a naturally altered state that is slightly different. the addition of flavorings raises that possibility.
the mullein and mugwort are already smoked by some herbal medicine patients. mullein for cough and congestion, and mugwort is for going on a dream quest
I'm wondering about the possibility of combing concentrates to create a naturally altered state that is slightly different. the addition of flavorings raises that possibility.
the mullein and mugwort are already smoked by some herbal medicine patients. mullein for cough and congestion, and mugwort is for going on a dream quest
P
pineolene
Well, if we are talking ecigs, then I am led to believe that oils will not work. According to OP, I have not looked into this.
Good ? I've done the mullein thing many times .... maybe start a new thread on it.
KonradZuse
Active member
I guess edibles are for 12 year olds too, you're over your head chief.
P
pineolene
there is a huge difference between using spices to carry THC in medibles, and using artificial flavoring to flavor an ecig. nice try. fail.
KonradZuse
Active member
I didn't know there was a difference when making cannacandy and this? I know someone who makes suckers, and other candy, so where do you get the flavorings for such? DEEEERP.
WE all can tell you're some super snob about how to do his methods, especially with the BHO accusations that are laughable. It's sad that people cannot get along and need to think they are so high and mighty and can only have PURE CANNABIS GLANDS IN MY SHIT YO. Seriously grow the fuck up.
I'm also done wasting my time on the likes of you.
bugler
Member
I'd like to revisit a few erroneous points made in this thread for the casual reader, in both directions.
1. All the talk of temperatures in ecigs is completely irrelevant. They do not get hot enough to make acrolein, so that worry can be eliminated.
2. Again on temperature, So far as Sam's (I think, long thread you know?) comments about ecigs not being hot enough to vaporize THC, also irrelevant. Ecigs are PROVEN delivery vehicles of nicotine, and ecigs don't get hot enough to vaporize nicotine either (bp 247*C). It's a fairly complicated set of physics going on, but suffice it to say that ecigs are more than capable of delivering drugs at a temperature FAR below what it would take to vaporize them on their own. It works in a similar way to steam distillation where water vapor @ 100*C is used to "vaporize" essential oils which would normally vaporize at a much higher temp (say bp of 200+*C).
3. Concerns on safety of flavorings are perfectly valid as long as they aren't hysterical. It is true that most of these flavorings are food safe, and have been tested as such. Many have also been used, even approved as safe for smoking additives to tobaccos. But there have been few (none?) attempts at studying long term effects of vaporizing these flavorings habitually. Should the studies be done? Yup? Is it reasonable to wait for them to be? Well not in my case as it's either vape the flavors or go back to the poison sticks I smoked for years, and I KNOW they were killing me! I'd say if you have no qualms about smoking a joint, you should have no qualms about inhaling the flavorings, but note that you don't have to flavor the juice if you like the flavor of the tincture/juice.
4. Volumes of tincture needed for vaping, both "sides" have a point here. I've been vaping, and I went through roughly .5ml reading this thread, about 30 minutes, chain vaping hard on a pretty hard hitting kr808d-1. This is a whole heckuva lot longer than just smoking/vaping/sublingual would take, and that may be a valid complaint FOR SOME PEOPLE. Also note that it's 3x longer than the OP claims to be able to go through .5ml. I have to question anyone who can go through .5ml in 10 minutes as claimed in any cig size ecig on the market, and yes I have experience with the 510 model she was referring too and would say it's comparable to what I've been puffing on while reading this. Maybe your cart tastes "dry" after 10 minutes, but you've still got juice in that packing, you didn't actually vape off that much that fast. Try actually weighing the difference between a full cart and see how much weight it loses after you've vaped enough, and compare that to the weight of a ml of your tincture.
5. The vast majority of vapor from ecigs is not delivered to the lungs where it coats them and is absorbed. MOST of it is absorbed through the surface of the mouth (just like sublingual dosing) and throat. A very small portion reaches the lungs at all, and even then it doesn't reach as deep as smoke particles do. This is because the inhaled "vapor" actually consists of small droplets which are a LOT heavier than the fine particles in smoke. This is readily apparent to a cig smoker who is used to getting their nic hit seconds after inhaling a cig vs. several minutes of puffing on an ecig, e vapor is absorbed a little more slowly although just as effectively. I can even get my nic fix by just holding the vapor in my mouth and "swishing" it around, never inhaling at all (which I only did to prove the mechanism to myself when I first started vaping, not sure why anyone would do that on the reg)
Having said all that, I'm way more versed with ecigs than I am tinctures, so I'll leave that talk to the pros. Just wanted to point out for other interested readers that the bickering has been a little off in both directions. IF you can make a clean vaping tincture with a .5 ml dose, AND you want to vape that dose in about 30 minutes, Ecigs CAN physically deliver it, with no thoughts about acrolein or temperatures achieved. I'm not trying to call anyone out, just throwing out what doesn't jive based on e-cig experience and an understanding of how they actually function.
So Misters and Mrs. smarty pants, try to play a little nicer, sometimes you might think you are so right when your supporting evidence is solid, it's just not applied solidly to the subject at hand. Forums are a great place to bounce ideas off of others, learning and teaching together. When that happens, all stoners get smarter, and the world needs smarter stoners!
1. All the talk of temperatures in ecigs is completely irrelevant. They do not get hot enough to make acrolein, so that worry can be eliminated.
2. Again on temperature, So far as Sam's (I think, long thread you know?) comments about ecigs not being hot enough to vaporize THC, also irrelevant. Ecigs are PROVEN delivery vehicles of nicotine, and ecigs don't get hot enough to vaporize nicotine either (bp 247*C). It's a fairly complicated set of physics going on, but suffice it to say that ecigs are more than capable of delivering drugs at a temperature FAR below what it would take to vaporize them on their own. It works in a similar way to steam distillation where water vapor @ 100*C is used to "vaporize" essential oils which would normally vaporize at a much higher temp (say bp of 200+*C).
3. Concerns on safety of flavorings are perfectly valid as long as they aren't hysterical. It is true that most of these flavorings are food safe, and have been tested as such. Many have also been used, even approved as safe for smoking additives to tobaccos. But there have been few (none?) attempts at studying long term effects of vaporizing these flavorings habitually. Should the studies be done? Yup? Is it reasonable to wait for them to be? Well not in my case as it's either vape the flavors or go back to the poison sticks I smoked for years, and I KNOW they were killing me! I'd say if you have no qualms about smoking a joint, you should have no qualms about inhaling the flavorings, but note that you don't have to flavor the juice if you like the flavor of the tincture/juice.
4. Volumes of tincture needed for vaping, both "sides" have a point here. I've been vaping, and I went through roughly .5ml reading this thread, about 30 minutes, chain vaping hard on a pretty hard hitting kr808d-1. This is a whole heckuva lot longer than just smoking/vaping/sublingual would take, and that may be a valid complaint FOR SOME PEOPLE. Also note that it's 3x longer than the OP claims to be able to go through .5ml. I have to question anyone who can go through .5ml in 10 minutes as claimed in any cig size ecig on the market, and yes I have experience with the 510 model she was referring too and would say it's comparable to what I've been puffing on while reading this. Maybe your cart tastes "dry" after 10 minutes, but you've still got juice in that packing, you didn't actually vape off that much that fast. Try actually weighing the difference between a full cart and see how much weight it loses after you've vaped enough, and compare that to the weight of a ml of your tincture.
5. The vast majority of vapor from ecigs is not delivered to the lungs where it coats them and is absorbed. MOST of it is absorbed through the surface of the mouth (just like sublingual dosing) and throat. A very small portion reaches the lungs at all, and even then it doesn't reach as deep as smoke particles do. This is because the inhaled "vapor" actually consists of small droplets which are a LOT heavier than the fine particles in smoke. This is readily apparent to a cig smoker who is used to getting their nic hit seconds after inhaling a cig vs. several minutes of puffing on an ecig, e vapor is absorbed a little more slowly although just as effectively. I can even get my nic fix by just holding the vapor in my mouth and "swishing" it around, never inhaling at all (which I only did to prove the mechanism to myself when I first started vaping, not sure why anyone would do that on the reg)
Having said all that, I'm way more versed with ecigs than I am tinctures, so I'll leave that talk to the pros. Just wanted to point out for other interested readers that the bickering has been a little off in both directions. IF you can make a clean vaping tincture with a .5 ml dose, AND you want to vape that dose in about 30 minutes, Ecigs CAN physically deliver it, with no thoughts about acrolein or temperatures achieved. I'm not trying to call anyone out, just throwing out what doesn't jive based on e-cig experience and an understanding of how they actually function.
So Misters and Mrs. smarty pants, try to play a little nicer, sometimes you might think you are so right when your supporting evidence is solid, it's just not applied solidly to the subject at hand. Forums are a great place to bounce ideas off of others, learning and teaching together. When that happens, all stoners get smarter, and the world needs smarter stoners!
Thanks, Bugler... I read this whole bullshit thread and was about to write a post of my own, and I got to the last page here and saw that you basically addressed the issues I was going to address.
One more thing though, and I really gotta call the OP's detractors out on this: You guys took such a hard line position against the OP's methods solely on ASSUMPTIONS. Whether she was wrong or not is something that can only be proven by making a good faith effort to recreate her results using her methodology. I myself am not going to comment on the effectiveness of vaping in an e-cig simply because I haven't tried it. But all I saw in this thread were people making assumptions based on their own, mostly unrelated experiences. But just because you tried something similar (yet fundamentally different, like alcohol vs glycerin) doesn't give you license to make definitive claims against something you haven't tried.
That would be like me telling an outdoor grower that there's no way he yields pounds off of a plant, because I can't get the same results growing in soil indoors. I mean, dirt is dirt, right?
If the technique is bad, then that should prove itself out when people are unable to recreate the results. Allow that to happen. That's all I'm saying. Instead, what happened here was a huge pissing match that drove people away from the thread and the method itself. That's completely counter productive to what most people on this site are trying to accomplish.
One more thing though, and I really gotta call the OP's detractors out on this: You guys took such a hard line position against the OP's methods solely on ASSUMPTIONS. Whether she was wrong or not is something that can only be proven by making a good faith effort to recreate her results using her methodology. I myself am not going to comment on the effectiveness of vaping in an e-cig simply because I haven't tried it. But all I saw in this thread were people making assumptions based on their own, mostly unrelated experiences. But just because you tried something similar (yet fundamentally different, like alcohol vs glycerin) doesn't give you license to make definitive claims against something you haven't tried.
That would be like me telling an outdoor grower that there's no way he yields pounds off of a plant, because I can't get the same results growing in soil indoors. I mean, dirt is dirt, right?
If the technique is bad, then that should prove itself out when people are unable to recreate the results. Allow that to happen. That's all I'm saying. Instead, what happened here was a huge pissing match that drove people away from the thread and the method itself. That's completely counter productive to what most people on this site are trying to accomplish.
Nobody slammed this method based on assumptions. Those who stated it is not impressive, myself included, all made proper glycerin tinctures, not alcohol which doesn't even make sense in an ecig.
We have reports from at least 3 people, Grey Wolf, the Don of cannabis chemistry himself among them, that tried it and were not impressed.
As Bulger also noted, the OP is blatantly exaggerating the rate at which the tincture can be used in an ecig - this kind of manipulative bs is why the thread got heated. I stand by it - we don't need that kind of thing around here.
BadKittySmiles
Member
Thanks for your input Bugler and Flatcurve 
I was admittedly pretty heated earlier on in the thread, I was being sent some nasty messages even beyond the thread, and even here (considering the fact they had moderator support), it was starting to seem pointless to defend myself with any amount of tact or grace.
Needless to say, I'm gland things have turned around I've been vaping with tincture pretty heavily for a while, so my use may be a bit more rapid than others. Keep in mind, for many patients a .5ml dose at the strength I use may also be too strong. My sublingual spray bottles are only 3ml, I have a high tolerance, and they dose me several times
I start either using a concentrate made from grain alcohol using dry sift hash, or just with the hash. When using a concentrate and glycerin, you can concentrate the tincture to where 3ml will provide maybe two, out of every three patients of average consumption, a solid 10-12 doses.
To 'Mr Bongjangels' I got heated, because I was being publicly and privately attacked while a moderator not only stood by, but joined in with the attackers. This is precisely why some forums are more often than not, full of underage kids, negativity, harassment, attacks, prejudice, and loads of false information. And if your tincture is too weak, and you can't vape a cart in 10 - 15 minutes, you're simply not trying hard enough
Fact of the matter is, if you go to any e-cig forum rather than consulting with inexperienced cannabis users, that's not an uncommon rate of use when vaping for pleasure, and working with low-to-no nicotine. And regardless whether one batch requires .5 ml, and another requires 2ml depending on its intended purpose, for a patient of my tolerance (several grams per day, min) that's impressive.
I've been moderating and contributing at canna forums larger than this for over a decade, and to the medical community for even longer. And in all that time, this was the saddest interaction I've ever had, with people who claim to be passionate about cannabis.
One thing you mentioned is true, we really don't need this type of thing around the medical or the recreational community.
But feel free to drag this little argument of yours out for another year, it really helps show folks just what kind of people we're dealing with here
I was admittedly pretty heated earlier on in the thread, I was being sent some nasty messages even beyond the thread, and even here (considering the fact they had moderator support), it was starting to seem pointless to defend myself with any amount of tact or grace. Needless to say, I'm gland things have turned around
I've been vaping with tincture pretty heavily for a while, so my use may be a bit more rapid than others. Keep in mind, for many patients a .5ml dose at the strength I use may also be too strong. My sublingual spray bottles are only 3ml, I have a high tolerance, and they dose me several times I start either using a concentrate made from grain alcohol using dry sift hash, or just with the hash. When using a concentrate and glycerin, you can concentrate the tincture to where 3ml will provide maybe two, out of every three patients of average consumption, a solid 10-12 doses.
To 'Mr Bongjangels' I got heated, because I was being publicly and privately attacked while a moderator not only stood by, but joined in with the attackers. This is precisely why some forums are more often than not, full of underage kids, negativity, harassment, attacks, prejudice, and loads of false information.
And if your tincture is too weak, and you can't vape a cart in 10 - 15 minutes, you're simply not trying hard enough Fact of the matter is, if you go to any e-cig forum rather than consulting with inexperienced cannabis users, that's not an uncommon rate of use when vaping for pleasure, and working with low-to-no nicotine. And regardless whether one batch requires .5 ml, and another requires 2ml depending on its intended purpose, for a patient of my tolerance (several grams per day, min) that's impressive.
I've been moderating and contributing at canna forums larger than this for over a decade, and to the medical community for even longer. And in all that time, this was the saddest interaction I've ever had, with people who claim to be passionate about cannabis.
One thing you mentioned is true, we really don't need this type of thing around the medical or the recreational community.
But feel free to drag this little argument of yours out for another year, it really helps show folks just what kind of people we're dealing with here
High ya'll! Thanks for the title MBJ!
I've been studiously avoiding this discussion, because of the passions involved, but may I offer the following?
First is that my tolerance from testing is so high that almost nothing impresses me. I haven't had a delightful euphoric high for several years, though I can distinguish body effects, mostly from being a Kundalini yoga student in my youth. My sad!
I have to use volunteer test panels to sort out the nuances, because I can only tell if it works, and where in my body the somatics are affected.
My own experience and those of the panels, support that cannabis glycerin mixtures in E-Cigs work, just not as fast and intensely as other methods available.
I can understand why folks used to the quicker, more intense effects of a joint or bowl are also not impressed, even if they aren't tuned off.
My post on E-Cigs involved using a cannabis acetate instead, because the average panel short term reaction to a glycerin E-Cig mixture was, "Yes it works, I can feel it coming on and to cannabis acetate was, "Wow!"
The wow was because cannabis acetate passes the blood brain barrier so quickly that it doesn't come on, it arrives with both feet. Exactly like the difference between salicylic acid and aspirin, or morphine and heroin, which are other examples of the same process.
What I personally noted using the E-Cig with both a glycerin tincture and with cannabis acetate, was how smooth and cough free it is. It also has the advantage of being discrete in public, regardless of the situation.
Clearly most of the devices use heat that is below vaporization temperatures of cannabis, and yet they work, so something is going on besides simple vaporization, or they wouldn't work at all.
We at the pharm discussed making a E-Cigar, to pack the battery power for a real vaporizer, but after testing acetate, dropped the priority of that project.
As a bottom line, though I own an E-Cig, I seldom use it, given my high tolerance, which makes even cannabis acetate's sudden arrival academic, but one of our local skunk pharmers with lower tolerance does, using cannabis acetate in an E-Cig for his primary source of medication.
Please do continue sorting out the details of developing E-Cig mixtures amongst yourselves, and I will continue to studiously avoid the arguments, but I personally see a place in the medical community for the E-Cig and hope ya'll continue your efforts to evolve it into the perfect solution.
BadKittySmiles
Member
Thank you for being diplomatic
Enough people have tried the e-cig with success, that Granny Storm Crow, has listed my tutorial in her medical list (along with recipes from my stickied edible threads, from a few other forums where I contribute more heavily)! If anyone has not seen the fruits of her work and dedication to the community, you are truly missing out on something wonderful Granny Storm Crow's List (You can always message her for this years most-updated version!)
Not to mention, since this little 'tiff' began, and I was told by a few members here that 'this doesn't/can't physically work', they've started carrying e-cig and glycerin hash tincture carts in the clinics
I've been doing this with various e-cigs over the years, since before they were widely available to the public for nicotine purposes
I would just mention to be cautious when suggesting to potentially young and inexperienced folks, that they should experiment using and inhaling acetate... without the proper purging, the fumes are incredibly harmful when inhaled.
It can cause irritation and eventually scar tissue in the lung tissue that is exposed, it causes dizziness, headaches, sedation etc, brain damage. It's ultimately not very good to put into your body via inhalation, but oral toxicity is considered to be lower, and eating it in small amounts is considered (outside of the medical community), to be 'safe'. If it's left in the tincture to be inhaled, you may think you're feeling cannabinoids.. but more likely, you're feeling the side-effects of acetate exposure. But once fully purged, you're just left with a concentrate, which also isn't ideal for use with e-cigs (it can be used, but pure concentrates burn out atomizers much more rapidly, are not as cost effective, and tend to provide lesser effects using the same amount of material, versus cannabinoids delivered in a bioavailable, activated glycerin vehicle). Processing with acetate also can drastically diminish medicinal terpene content, and our terpenes provide everything from sedative, to analgesic, to anti-mutagenic/cancer-fighting properties, and more... it's one of the reasons that many patients prefer to stick with the 'real deal', rather than Sativex, for instance (another preparation where terpene content is severely limited and diminished)...without those terpenes to both regulate and enhance the effect of cannabinoids, it's not the same experience, and doesn't provide the same array of medicinal benefits.
Here are a few links on how to use acetate safely;
http://www.osha.gov/SLTC/healthguidelines/aceticanhydride/recognition.html
"
* Formula
CH(3)CO)(2)O
* Structure
For Structure, see paper copy)
* Synonyms
Acetic acid anhydride, acetic oxide, acetyl oxide, ethanoic anhydride, acetyl ether.
* Identifiers
CAS 108-24-7.
RTECS AK1925000.
DOT UN: 1715 39.
DOT label: Corrosive, Flammable Liquid.
* Appearance and odor
Acetic anhydride is a colorless liquid with a strong, pungent odor.
CHEMICAL AND PHYSICAL PROPERTIES
* Physical data
Molecular weight: 102.1.
Boiling point (760 torr): 140 degrees C (284 degrees F).
Specific gravity (water = 1): 1.08 at 20 degrees C (68 degrees F).
Vapor density (air = 1 at boiling point of acetic anhydride): 3.5.
Melting point: -73 degrees C (-99.4 degrees F).
Vapor pressure at 20 degrees C (68.8 degrees F): 4 torr.
Solubility: Soluble in cold water; decomposes in hot water to form acetic acid; soluble in alcohol, chloroform, and ether.
Evaporation rate (butyl acetate = 1): 0.46.
* Reactivity
Contact of acetic anhydride vapors with water or air should be avoided.
Incompatibilities: Contact of acetic anhydride with water, alcohols, strong oxidizers, chromic acid, amines, or strong caustics may cause fires and explosions.
Hazardous decomposition products: Toxic gases and vapors (such as carbon dioxide, carbon monoxide, various hydrocarbons, and acid aerosols) may be released when acetic anhydride is heated or decomposes.
Special precautions: Acetic anhydride attacks some coatings and some forms of plastic and rubber.
* Flammability
The National Fire Protection Association has assigned a flammability rating of 2 (moderate fire hazard) to acetic anhydride.
Flash point: 49 degrees C (120 degrees F).
Auto-ignition temperature: 316 degrees C (600 degrees F).
Flammable limits in air (percent by volume): Lower, 2.7; upper, 10.3.
Extinguishant: Use carbon dioxide or dry chemical for small fires and alcohol for large fires. Water should be used with caution because acetic anhydride reacts with water.
Fires involving acetic anhydride should be fought upwind and from the maximum distance possible. Keep unnecessary people away; isolate hazard area and deny entry. Emergency personnel should stay out of low areas and ventilate closed spaces before entering. Vapor explosion and poison hazards may occur indoors, outdoors, or in sewers. Vapors may travel to a source of ignition and flash back.
Containers of acetic anhydride may explode in the heat of the fire and should be moved from the fire area if it is possible to do so safely. If this is not possible, cool containers from the sides with water until well after the fire is out. Avoid directing water into containers of acetic anhydride. Stay away from the ends of containers. Personnel should withdraw immediately if a rising sound from a venting safety device is heard or if there is discoloration of a container due to fire. Dikes should be used to contain fire-control water for later disposal. If a tank car or truck is involved in a fire, personnel should isolate an area of a half a mile in all directions. Firefighters should wear a full set of protective clothing, including a self-contained breathing apparatus, when fighting fires involving acetic anhydride. Chemical protective clothing that is specifically recommended for acetic anhydride may not provide thermal protection unless so stated by the clothing manufacturer. Firefighters' protective clothing is not effective against fires involving acetic anhydride.
* Warning properties
No quantitative data are available on the odor threshold for acetic anhydride. For the purpose of respirator selection, this substance is therefore considered to have inadequate odor warning properties.
* Eye irritation properties
No quantitative data are available on the eye irritation threshold for acetic anhydride; however, a vapor concentration of 5 parts per million (ppm) parts of air is known to cause immediate irritation of the eyes in humans.
EXPOSURE LIMITS
The current Occupational Safety and Health Administration (OSHA) permissible exposure limit (PEL) for acetic anhydride is 5 ppm (20 milligrams per cubic meter (mg/m(3)) as a ceiling limit [29 CFR Table Z-1-A]. The National Institute for Occupational Safety and Health (NIOSH) has not issued a recommended exposure limit (REL) for acetic anhydride; however, NIOSH concurs with the PEL established for this substance by OSHA [NIOSH 1988]. The American Conference of Governmental Industrial Hygienists (ACGIH) has assigned acetic anhydride a ceiling limit value of 5 ppm (21 mg/m(3)), which should not be exceeded during any part of the working exposure [ACGIH 1989, p. 11]. The OSHA and ACGIH limits are based on the risk of irritant effects associated with exposure to acetic anhydride."
"Breathing moderate- to-high levels of acetone for short periods of time, however, can cause nose, throat, lung, and eye irritation; headaches; light-headedness; confusion; increased pulse rate; effects on blood; nausea; vomiting; unconsciousness and possibly coma; and shortening of the menstrual cycle in women. "
"Safety
Acetic anhydride is an irritant and flammable. Because of its reactivity toward water, alcohol foam or carbon dioxide are preferred for fire suppression.[14] The vapour of acetic anhydride is harmful.[15]
When mixed with hydrogen peroxide, an excess of acetic anhydride reacts with one of the reaction products peracetic acid and forms highly shock sensitive and explosive diacetyl peroxide."
And back to me It's crucial that you are incredibly cautious during both the creation, and the use, of a cannabis acetate.
Gray Wolf very likely has the experience and the tools and ventilation to work with acetate properly; before you try, be sure you do, too!
It's why we stick with using glycerin to processing hash or concentrates for e-cig use, and for training patients to care for themselves; it's tried, tested and true, it preserves terpene content, and it's now distributed by the professional medical community. It's much safer for a wider range of patients, and it's very easy to work with. To each their own though! People can have differing opinions, and differing methods, without jumping down each others throats over it!
And if in your environment, you have the proper tools, the proper ventilation, and you can be safe, and purge correctly and entirely, then experiment with the solvents and carriers of your choice. Just know what you plan on doing with it in the end (eating or inhalation) be aware of their purposes, and their limitations!
Thanks for your time and your input, Gray Wolf!
Enough people have tried the e-cig with success, that Granny Storm Crow, has listed my tutorial in her medical list (along with recipes from my stickied edible threads, from a few other forums where I contribute more heavily)! If anyone has not seen the fruits of her work and dedication to the community, you are truly missing out on something wonderful
Granny Storm Crow's List (You can always message her for this years most-updated version!)Not to mention, since this little 'tiff' began, and I was told by a few members here that 'this doesn't/can't physically work', they've started carrying e-cig and glycerin hash tincture carts in the clinics
I've been doing this with various e-cigs over the years, since before they were widely available to the public for nicotine purposes
I would just mention to be cautious when suggesting to potentially young and inexperienced folks, that they should experiment using and inhaling acetate... without the proper purging, the fumes are incredibly harmful when inhaled.
It can cause irritation and eventually scar tissue in the lung tissue that is exposed, it causes dizziness, headaches, sedation etc, brain damage. It's ultimately not very good to put into your body via inhalation, but oral toxicity is considered to be lower, and eating it in small amounts is considered (outside of the medical community), to be 'safe'. If it's left in the tincture to be inhaled, you may think you're feeling cannabinoids.. but more likely, you're feeling the side-effects of acetate exposure. But once fully purged, you're just left with a concentrate, which also isn't ideal for use with e-cigs (it can be used, but pure concentrates burn out atomizers much more rapidly, are not as cost effective, and tend to provide lesser effects using the same amount of material, versus cannabinoids delivered in a bioavailable, activated glycerin vehicle). Processing with acetate also can drastically diminish medicinal terpene content, and our terpenes provide everything from sedative, to analgesic, to anti-mutagenic/cancer-fighting properties, and more... it's one of the reasons that many patients prefer to stick with the 'real deal', rather than Sativex, for instance (another preparation where terpene content is severely limited and diminished)...without those terpenes to both regulate and enhance the effect of cannabinoids, it's not the same experience, and doesn't provide the same array of medicinal benefits.
Here are a few links on how to use acetate safely;
http://www.osha.gov/SLTC/healthguidelines/aceticanhydride/recognition.html
"
* Formula
CH(3)CO)(2)O
* Structure
For Structure, see paper copy)
* Synonyms
Acetic acid anhydride, acetic oxide, acetyl oxide, ethanoic anhydride, acetyl ether.
* Identifiers
CAS 108-24-7.
RTECS AK1925000.
DOT UN: 1715 39.
DOT label: Corrosive, Flammable Liquid.
* Appearance and odor
Acetic anhydride is a colorless liquid with a strong, pungent odor.
CHEMICAL AND PHYSICAL PROPERTIES
* Physical data
Molecular weight: 102.1.
Boiling point (760 torr): 140 degrees C (284 degrees F).
Specific gravity (water = 1): 1.08 at 20 degrees C (68 degrees F).
Vapor density (air = 1 at boiling point of acetic anhydride): 3.5.
Melting point: -73 degrees C (-99.4 degrees F).
Vapor pressure at 20 degrees C (68.8 degrees F): 4 torr.
Solubility: Soluble in cold water; decomposes in hot water to form acetic acid; soluble in alcohol, chloroform, and ether.
Evaporation rate (butyl acetate = 1): 0.46.
* Reactivity
Contact of acetic anhydride vapors with water or air should be avoided.
Incompatibilities: Contact of acetic anhydride with water, alcohols, strong oxidizers, chromic acid, amines, or strong caustics may cause fires and explosions.
Hazardous decomposition products: Toxic gases and vapors (such as carbon dioxide, carbon monoxide, various hydrocarbons, and acid aerosols) may be released when acetic anhydride is heated or decomposes.
Special precautions: Acetic anhydride attacks some coatings and some forms of plastic and rubber.
* Flammability
The National Fire Protection Association has assigned a flammability rating of 2 (moderate fire hazard) to acetic anhydride.
Flash point: 49 degrees C (120 degrees F).
Auto-ignition temperature: 316 degrees C (600 degrees F).
Flammable limits in air (percent by volume): Lower, 2.7; upper, 10.3.
Extinguishant: Use carbon dioxide or dry chemical for small fires and alcohol for large fires. Water should be used with caution because acetic anhydride reacts with water.
Fires involving acetic anhydride should be fought upwind and from the maximum distance possible. Keep unnecessary people away; isolate hazard area and deny entry. Emergency personnel should stay out of low areas and ventilate closed spaces before entering. Vapor explosion and poison hazards may occur indoors, outdoors, or in sewers. Vapors may travel to a source of ignition and flash back.
Containers of acetic anhydride may explode in the heat of the fire and should be moved from the fire area if it is possible to do so safely. If this is not possible, cool containers from the sides with water until well after the fire is out. Avoid directing water into containers of acetic anhydride. Stay away from the ends of containers. Personnel should withdraw immediately if a rising sound from a venting safety device is heard or if there is discoloration of a container due to fire. Dikes should be used to contain fire-control water for later disposal. If a tank car or truck is involved in a fire, personnel should isolate an area of a half a mile in all directions. Firefighters should wear a full set of protective clothing, including a self-contained breathing apparatus, when fighting fires involving acetic anhydride. Chemical protective clothing that is specifically recommended for acetic anhydride may not provide thermal protection unless so stated by the clothing manufacturer. Firefighters' protective clothing is not effective against fires involving acetic anhydride.
* Warning properties
No quantitative data are available on the odor threshold for acetic anhydride. For the purpose of respirator selection, this substance is therefore considered to have inadequate odor warning properties.
* Eye irritation properties
No quantitative data are available on the eye irritation threshold for acetic anhydride; however, a vapor concentration of 5 parts per million (ppm) parts of air is known to cause immediate irritation of the eyes in humans.
EXPOSURE LIMITS
The current Occupational Safety and Health Administration (OSHA) permissible exposure limit (PEL) for acetic anhydride is 5 ppm (20 milligrams per cubic meter (mg/m(3)) as a ceiling limit [29 CFR Table Z-1-A]. The National Institute for Occupational Safety and Health (NIOSH) has not issued a recommended exposure limit (REL) for acetic anhydride; however, NIOSH concurs with the PEL established for this substance by OSHA [NIOSH 1988]. The American Conference of Governmental Industrial Hygienists (ACGIH) has assigned acetic anhydride a ceiling limit value of 5 ppm (21 mg/m(3)), which should not be exceeded during any part of the working exposure [ACGIH 1989, p. 11]. The OSHA and ACGIH limits are based on the risk of irritant effects associated with exposure to acetic anhydride."
"Breathing moderate- to-high levels of acetone for short periods of time, however, can cause nose, throat, lung, and eye irritation; headaches; light-headedness; confusion; increased pulse rate; effects on blood; nausea; vomiting; unconsciousness and possibly coma; and shortening of the menstrual cycle in women. "
"Safety
Acetic anhydride is an irritant and flammable. Because of its reactivity toward water, alcohol foam or carbon dioxide are preferred for fire suppression.[14] The vapour of acetic anhydride is harmful.[15]
When mixed with hydrogen peroxide, an excess of acetic anhydride reacts with one of the reaction products peracetic acid and forms highly shock sensitive and explosive diacetyl peroxide."
And back to me
It's crucial that you are incredibly cautious during both the creation, and the use, of a cannabis acetate. Gray Wolf very likely has the experience and the tools and ventilation to work with acetate properly; before you try, be sure you do, too!
It's why we stick with using glycerin to processing hash or concentrates for e-cig use, and for training patients to care for themselves; it's tried, tested and true, it preserves terpene content, and it's now distributed by the professional medical community. It's much safer for a wider range of patients, and it's very easy to work with. To each their own though! People can have differing opinions, and differing methods, without jumping down each others throats over it!
And if in your environment, you have the proper tools, the proper ventilation, and you can be safe, and purge correctly and entirely, then experiment with the solvents and carriers of your choice.
Just know what you plan on doing with it in the end (eating or inhalation) be aware of their purposes, and their limitations! Thanks for your time and your input, Gray Wolf!
Thank you for being diplomatic
I would just mention to be cautious when suggesting to potentially young and inexperienced folks, that they should experiment using and inhaling acetate... without the proper purging, the fumes are incredibly harmful when inhaled.
It can cause irritation and eventually scar tissue in the lung tissue that is exposed, it causes dizziness, headaches, sedation etc, brain damage. It's ultimately not very good to put into your body via inhalation, but oral toxicity is considered to be lower, and eating it in small amounts is considered (outside of the medical community), to be 'safe'. If it's left in the tincture to be inhaled, you may think you're feeling cannabinoids.. but more likely, you're feeling the side-effects of acetate exposure. But once fully purged, you're just left with a concentrate, which also isn't ideal for use with e-cigs (it can be used, but pure concentrates burn out atomizers much more rapidly, are not as cost effective, and tend to provide lesser effects using the same amount of material, versus cannabinoids delivered in a bioavailable, activated glycerin vehicle). Processing with acetate also can drastically diminish medicinal terpene content, and our terpenes provide everything from sedative, to analgesic, to anti-mutagenic/cancer-fighting properties, and more... it's one of the reasons that many patients prefer to stick with the 'real deal', rather than Sativex, for instance (another preparation where terpene content is severely limited and diminished)...without those terpenes to both regulate and enhance the effect of cannabinoids, it's not the same experience, and doesn't provide the same array of medicinal benefits.
Here are a few links on how to use acetate safely;
http://www.osha.gov/SLTC/healthguidelines/aceticanhydride/recognition.html
And back to me
Gray Wolf very likely has the experience and the tools and ventilation to work with acetate properly; before you try, be sure you do, too!
It's why we stick with using glycerin to processing hash or concentrates for e-cig use, and for training patients to care for themselves; it's tried, tested and true, it preserves terpene content, and it's now distributed by the professional medical community. It's much safer for a wider range of patients, and it's very easy to work with. To each their own though! People can have differing opinions, and differing methods, without jumping down each others throats over it!
And if in your environment, you have the proper tools, the proper ventilation, and you can be safe, and purge correctly and entirely, then experiment with the solvents and carriers of your choice.
Thanks for your time and your input, Gray Wolf!
You're welcome for the diplomacy! I think it is often highly under rated during scientific exchange, as it opens communication, rather than circumscribing it.
I am reminded that when one has only a hammer in their toolbox, everything begins to look like a nail.
In the industry that I retired from, that observation evolved into a "Dumb hammer" epithet that we applied to certain fellow workers, who insisted on using their hammer in most applications, instead of attempting to convince their audience diplomatically.
Lets us review the acetate part a little further though, to make sure everyone who read it understands that acetate, cannabis acetate, and acetic anhydride are all different animals and the words aren't interchangeable.
Acetate appears to be used in your post to mean acetic anhydride, and if so, your post regarding its hazardous and toxic nature are points well made. It should only be used with proper training and equipment.
Acetic anhydride is vinegar with no water, and as such is a highly corrosive acid, and is flammable. Mixing it with water turns it into vinegar, and the bi-product is not flammable, nor is it anymore toxic than dill pickles. Vinegar is ~5% acetic anhydride, with the balance water.
The cannabis acetate produced is also no more toxic than the cannabis oil it started with, though it will still burn, just like any turpenoid will, given that it is a hydrocarbon. Any un-reacted acetic anhydride was turned to vinegar, even before the final wash, and after the final wash, un-reacted acetic anhydride isn't possible.
Good point that converting cannabis oil to a cannabis acetate, does in fact reduce the levels of aromatic turpenoids, thereby reducing some of the medical benefits. Aromatic turpenoids are readily giving off molecules at room temperature, so any heating or washing increases the rate at which they are lost. That doesn't mean that they are no longer there, or no longer in sufficient concentrations to do the job, just that there are less after the procedure than before.
E-Cigs, glycerin tinctures, and cannabis acetate are all useful tools for their application, though they may not be the best for all applications.
For instance, I use a sublingual made from cannabis oil for pain relief, and no other method that I have tried to date is as effective for me in that application.
It isn't as fast as vaporizing, nor does it produce the head effects of inhaling the vapors, so when I am looking for those attributes in a med, I use another method. It is not so much that one form is better than another, but may be better suited for a specific application. I believe that the more tools in our toolbox, the better!
Trichgnomes
Member
I have a question for you folks. Anyone have any experience with the omicron or the new model, the persei?
I think I used one with this chick that worked at a dispensary, but I was pretty drunk at the time (3am, at a wedding). It was the best tasting e-cig that I had toked on for concentrates by far. Thing was huge, too, more like an E-Spliff!
They say you can vape primary extracts (as in not acetate, just first wash bho), without any additional constituents.
I am quite versed in the realm of extraction, but e-cigs are not something I have really explored or researched. A way to vape my own pure oils on the go without turning them to acetate would be something I would love to do.
Until then, it's capsules and tincture on the road and Ti at home and when circumstance allows.
I think I used one with this chick that worked at a dispensary, but I was pretty drunk at the time (3am, at a wedding). It was the best tasting e-cig that I had toked on for concentrates by far. Thing was huge, too, more like an E-Spliff!
They say you can vape primary extracts (as in not acetate, just first wash bho), without any additional constituents.
I am quite versed in the realm of extraction, but e-cigs are not something I have really explored or researched. A way to vape my own pure oils on the go without turning them to acetate would be something I would love to do.
Until then, it's capsules and tincture on the road and Ti at home and when circumstance allows.
G
Guest 88950
could kief extracted using dry ice / bubble bags be used in the e-cigs?
im very new to extracts and dont smoke cigs so i would really like to move away from smoking my meds. im planning on making my own capsules very soon but am also interested in using one of the e-cigs for a more immediate relief of spasms.
thx
im very new to extracts and dont smoke cigs so i would really like to move away from smoking my meds. im planning on making my own capsules very soon but am also interested in using one of the e-cigs for a more immediate relief of spasms.
thx
Hash Man
Member
Hey there everyone. I recently switched over to the EGO because my lungs hurt from years of smoking blunts. I was disgusted by the flavor of one cartidge i got from a dispensary and was ripped off by some cartridges from another dispensary( bought 4 cartridges for 40 each... one was a blank... i got 20 hits from 2... and 40 hits from the last one). So i decided to make my own glycerine tincture as outlined here and elsewhere... Because I was in a hurry, i used Wild Wills method using hash so I could get some ecig hash fluid fast as possible... I am doing a non cooked tincture as well but it needs to sit for a few months... Anyway, my question is this- Can a glycerine tinture ever go bad? Is there any reason I shouldnt make up gallons of this, even if I will be sitting on it for a few years? Thanks a bunch BKS, this method really works... My cooked tincture hits smooth, and I am getting something like 100 hits+ from every cartridge that I fill myself, saving me tons of cash, and making my medicating clean, easy, and efficient.
Glycerin is a sugar alcohol and doesn't go bad, though it will absorb water if left uncapped. I've had some glycerin tinctures that are still potent over four years old, that I keep in the refrigerator in dark bottles.
