I don't know , who are you referring to ?
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Dud Identification Collective Knowledge.
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Not you joesy, I was making a point I could see the sick plants in veg and was going around telling people they have duds
Hi Seaf0ur
Thanks for posting those great photos. What a beautiful plant!
Leaf variegation in plants is an interesting phenomenon. It usually involves changes in non-nuclear genetic material.
Folks tend to be familiar with DNA and genes, and know they have something to do with inheritance. I think most would know that an organism gets genes/DNA from both parents, 50/50. I think that the concept of gene dominance is familiar to most also.
There is another type of inheritance though, that has little to do with the genes and DNA that are usually talked about.
The stuff usually discussed has to do with genetic information that is contained in the nucleus of the cell, and is called "nuclear DNA". It is this nuclear DNA that people are talking about when they discuss plant breeding, or human phsysiology (eye color, disease predisposition etc), dog breeding and so forth.
To make a long story short, there are other structures in the cell that have their own genes and DNA/RNA, that are NOT inherited in the same way as the nuclear DNA. You may have heard of "mitochondrial DNA" in stories about tracing human lineages, this technique takes advantage of this other type of inheritance.
One of these structures that has it's own genes/DNA is the chloroplast in plants. This is the organelle that contains chlorophyll and carries out photosynthesis, they are what makes the leaf green in color.
So, the variagation in the plant you show is likely genetic in nature, but not the kind of "genetic" that is usually referred to.
I have to go now, but if you are interested in this here are some terms to look up:
cytoloplasmic inheritance
extranuclear DNA
chimera (the plant you show may be a chimeric variegant)
I have found this to be very interesting, and am in the process of studying pathological states in plants due to organelle dysfunction, strategies for breeding for traits that are determined by things other than the nuclear DNA (superior plastids/organelles, non-nuclear membranes and other structures), and some other stuff related to this concept.
you are not taking into account the fact that all major producers at this scale get all the diseases at some point. both the dud and the bm hit him at a time when it was still being discovered. he survived and doesnt have bms and im sure in a very short time youll be able to say the same about him and the duds. hardly something youy can say speaks to someones skills when they are at the beginning of it being a known issue. not to mention he may have also cracked it. so before we go shreading him and personally attacking him lets put things into perspective. you and him have put together some great info on these topics and everyone on this thread deserves to be respected as having or actively pursuing knowledge in a murky area of growing. its a daunting and easily critiqued pursuit because its defined and driven by wrong answers.
as for purchasing cuts from p.o.
he already stated he hasnt in quite sometime. he also went out of his way to personally contact a person in charge and break it down. what they did with that knowledge is not on him.
i think hes wrong about being able to say hes 1000% sure of this new idea. i dont need to go for the throat to point it out. even if he is being a little overly confident of him self and jabbing at folks.
doesnt need to turn into a debate with competitive escalation of insults.
you raise an interesting point. i think its speaks directly to the fact that this is not directly an inherrent aberration of genetics. i would say that this at the very least not in contrast to the idea that this is a specific pathogen that was picked up as it made its way to the cup.
ive come to respect your skills through all this and see you as a grower who is growing into quite a knowledgeable producer and you are taking on a grow impressive in scale and getting through some intense and confusing issues. youre still in it and winning it would seem.
however that doesnt mean that just because the clues have become so overwhelmingly biased toward your discovery being the answer that the clues are leading us in the right direction yet. this may be yet another wrong turn. i doubt it (again, i might point out last time i was wrong too.) i would tend to agree with you in your view. it doesnt mean youre are able to make such an absolute claim.
in short
yes, you found something you think is stem nematodes. id guess you are probably correct. While i think your evidence is much greater with this one lets not forget how elusive the problem becomes when we are so sure of an untested theory like phytoplasma. one which ill admit convinced me too.
it is possible that this may be a wrong diagnosis, and/or there may be another disease youre over looking because this one seems like its so correct.
what if it is in fact stem nematodes but not the reason for dudding. weve seen two confirmations, to small a data sample size to be seen as anything as more than anecdotal. as much as this sounds convincing its only been a week with two casual non professional lab analysis.
im not saying youre wrong about the nematodes being present or them being the cause if so. im only pointing out that youre not 10000% sure of anything until some tests come in.
tons of respect to retro, storm,samskunkman,hilif45, josey, greyskull,locdog, what the 215,papaduc and everyone on this thread risking being publicly ridiculed and speaking up with ideas and coming back to the table even after being dogged. we need your persistent and unrelenting shameless stabbing at this invisible beast to get there.
peace and mad respect lets be somewhat civil even when we need to slap someone down a little.
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http://www.clivias.com/Articles/Article016.htm
There are many exceptions to the rule in genetics. One of them is that not all inherited characters are determined by genes located in the nucleus. A small minority are controlled by genes located in cell organelles in the cytoplasm i.e. cytoplasmic genes, and these of course are exceptions to the chromosome theory of inheritance. Since they are extrachromosomal (i.e. outside the chromosomes), such genes are not subject to the normal rules of Mendelian heredity.
Leaf variegation in plants
One of the earliest and best known examples of cytoplasmic inheritance is that discovered by Correns in a variegated variety of the four-o'clock plant Mirabilis jalapa. Variegated plants have some branches which carry normal green leaves, some branches with variegated leaves (mosaic of green and white patches) and some branches which have all white leaves (Fig. 9.11).
Correns discovered that seed produced by flowers carried on the green branches gave progeny which were all normal green. It made no difference whether the phenotype of the branch which carried the flower used for pollen was green, white or variegated. Seed taken from white branches likewise gave all white progeny, regardless of the pollen donor phenotype. These of course died in the seedling stage. Seeds from flowers on variegated branches gave three kinds of progeny, green, white and variegated, in varying proportions; again regardless of the pollen donor phenotype. In other words, the phenotype of the progeny always resembled the female parent and the male made no contribution at all to the character. The effect is seen quite clearly in the difference which Correns found between reciprocal crosses:
The explanation for this unusual pattern of inheritance is that the genes concerned are located in the chloroplasts within the cytoplasm, not in the nucleus, and are therefore transmitted only through the female parent. In eukaryote organisms the zygote normally receives the bulk of its cytoplasm from the egg cell and the male gamete contributes little more than a nucleus. Any genes contained in the cell organelles of the cytoplasm will therefore show maternal inheritance. The leaf variegation is due to two kinds of chloroplasts: normal green ones and defective ones lacking in chlorophyll pigment. Chloroplasts are genetically autonomous (i.e. self-determining) and have their own system of heredity in the form of chloroplast ‘chromosomes’. These are small circular naked DNA molecules which carry genes controlling some aspects of chloroplast structure and function. A mutation in one of these genes, which affects the synthesis of chlorophyll as in Mirabilis, will therefore follow the chloroplast in its transmission and will not be inherited in the same way as a nuclear gene – Fig. 9.12 and Box 9.2.
http://www.nature.com/scitable/topicpage/non-nuclear-genes-and-their-inheritance-589
http://davesgarden.com/guides/articles/view/3423/
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12655133
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http://www.novacropcontrol.nl
Please check them out, I believe you'll find their database and services very interesting
Thank you for that post str8edge!!!!
I do not want any arguing. We need to work together.
That being said, I lean towards retro, thinking this is not one problem for all. Could also be something transmitted by stem nematodes. That is why I encourage pictures of dud's, especially damage to stalks and stems.
I cut and boiled everything questionable, a day before SS posted about stem nematodes. Have been boiling everything, since then.
This is a rough quote from Bruce Lee -
In the mind of the expert there is only one way. In the mind of the novice, the possibilities are endless. Be a novice!!!
Another thing, is "Dud" needs to be defined for our purposes. It is very subjective term.
I do not want any arguing. We need to work together.
That being said, I lean towards retro, thinking this is not one problem for all. Could also be something transmitted by stem nematodes. That is why I encourage pictures of dud's, especially damage to stalks and stems.
I cut and boiled everything questionable, a day before SS posted about stem nematodes. Have been boiling everything, since then.
This is a rough quote from Bruce Lee -
In the mind of the expert there is only one way. In the mind of the novice, the possibilities are endless. Be a novice!!!
Another thing, is "Dud" needs to be defined for our purposes. It is very subjective term.
Try posting a direct link to their database or services, I could not find either. I looked at every page they had.
-SamS
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Not attacking him personally, just the falsehoods he posted, ie., that "his" duds are the only type of dudd, which we know is not the case. Check out the broad mite thread and you will see him talking about duds being caused by BMs MANY times, but now he denies it. He is also dismissive of anyone else's opinions at this point, bragging about his growing skills, which if you had been following his posts for years, you would realize is something he often does, while at the same time demeaning others lack of skills and how "small time" they are. If he were so skillful, he would have scoped his duds/sent them to a lab long ago. That would have been the first thing I would have done. But you haven't been here long enough to know about those things. Read the second half of the broad mite thread, and see how he attacks anyone who suggests different approach than dousing plants with highly toxic miticides, see how he attacks and belittles them, and you might understand where I'm coming from. Without knowing the history, you are kind of flying blind. So I am glad he found out it was nematodes attacking his plants, and not phytoplasmas, which he was sure of at the time. The jury is still out here, and we still have lots to learn, including how to kill the nematodes if you've got them, what other secondary infections are caused by the nematodes, and if they contribute to "dudding" also, and what other causes of duds are still unknown, as Joesy and others have said that their experience with duds is different, and not caused by nematodes. None of us should be arrogant enough to think we have all the answers, or that we're 100,000% certain, nor should we be dismissive of others observations/experiences with this dudding issue.
Thanks for all you do!!!!
Not attacking him personally, just the falsehoods he posted, ie., that "his" duds are the only type of dudd, which we know is not the case. Check out the broad mite thread and you will see him talking about duds being caused by BMs MANY times, but now he denies it. He is also dismissive of anyone else's opinions at this point, bragging about his growing skills, which if you had been following his posts for years, you would realize is something he often does, while at the same time demeaning others lack of skills and how "small time" they are. If he were so skillful, he would have scoped his duds/sent them to a lab long ago. That would have been the first thing I would have done. But you haven't been here long enough to know about those things. Read the second half of the broad mite thread, and see how he attacks anyone who suggests different approach than dousing plants with highly toxic miticides, see how he attacks and belittles them, and you might understand where I'm coming from. Without knowing the history, you are kind of flying blind. So I am glad he found out it was nematodes attacking his plants, and not phytoplasmas, which he was sure of at the time. The jury is still out here, and we still have lots to learn, including how to kill the nematodes if you've got them, what other secondary infections are caused by the nematodes, and if they contribute to "dudding" also, and what other causes of duds are still unknown, as Joesy and others have said that their experience with duds is different, and not caused by nematodes. None of us should be arrogant enough to think we have all the answers, or that we're 100,000% certain, nor should we be dismissive of others observations/experiences with this dudding issue.
Don't Mistaken CONFIDENCE for arrogance
Not everyone can be Michael Jordan or Kobe Bryant
You play a decent role off the bench of the RetroGrow.... I'll give you that...adequate Bench warmer
So storm shadow. is Ditylenchus dipsaci the species you are looking at for sure or is there others? im on the email line with the lab dont have time to scour backwards. if you see this soon let me know.
im seeing retros research skills as pro level. especially for someone putting in time thats never had the problem. it would seem to me an altruistic endeavor on his part.
id really like to see us all work at this without the thread devolving into infighting. noone cares to read you two spar. i know yall have history. noone reading this needs to read any more of you guys' opinions of each other. lets be chill and respond respectfully if in disagreement as to not get each other started in more of the back and forth. you are both smart dudes and there is a common goal here.
chill the fuck out guys.
ant no bench warmers or liars here. storm changed his tune. being wrong and having new theory is not tantamount to lying. retro is doing really solid information gathering. you dont have to like each other to allow the other to work next to you on this with out throwing elbows. lets appreciate each others strengths and get on this. the michael jordans of the game arent present here. ive seen jackmayoffer asked point blank about this issue and no response, the rest of us here are working toward that status but noone on here is there yet from what ive seen. no need to make comparrisons but if youre throwing elbows lets get real. aint no jmo's on this thread. hes the Michael Jordan of the online canna grow journal scene. a single warehouse full of awesome unique strains that are struggling with duds and less than a year in production isnt what id call michael jordon. impressive pro-level none the less but michael jordon? cmon. im sure youll get there but lets be where we are at. growers struggling to figure out a problem. embrace it. heads up, your shoes are untied bro. throw retro the ball or youre going to get sacked. these bugs have crossed the scrimmage line.
its cool.
sorry if this is annoying to read but if we have to read you two bicker you can read what we think of it. its old and embarrassing. knock it the fuck off. eyes on the finish line. focus discipline and maturity will prevail.
im seeing retros research skills as pro level. especially for someone putting in time thats never had the problem. it would seem to me an altruistic endeavor on his part.
id really like to see us all work at this without the thread devolving into infighting. noone cares to read you two spar. i know yall have history. noone reading this needs to read any more of you guys' opinions of each other. lets be chill and respond respectfully if in disagreement as to not get each other started in more of the back and forth. you are both smart dudes and there is a common goal here.
chill the fuck out guys.
ant no bench warmers or liars here. storm changed his tune. being wrong and having new theory is not tantamount to lying. retro is doing really solid information gathering. you dont have to like each other to allow the other to work next to you on this with out throwing elbows. lets appreciate each others strengths and get on this. the michael jordans of the game arent present here. ive seen jackmayoffer asked point blank about this issue and no response, the rest of us here are working toward that status but noone on here is there yet from what ive seen. no need to make comparrisons but if youre throwing elbows lets get real. aint no jmo's on this thread. hes the Michael Jordan of the online canna grow journal scene. a single warehouse full of awesome unique strains that are struggling with duds and less than a year in production isnt what id call michael jordon. impressive pro-level none the less but michael jordon? cmon. im sure youll get there but lets be where we are at. growers struggling to figure out a problem. embrace it. heads up, your shoes are untied bro. throw retro the ball or youre going to get sacked. these bugs have crossed the scrimmage line.
its cool.
sorry if this is annoying to read but if we have to read you two bicker you can read what we think of it. its old and embarrassing. knock it the fuck off. eyes on the finish line. focus discipline and maturity will prevail.
agreed, who gives a shit who solves this deal, this get it done, disagreement isent bad, this just keep our heads togather.
Don't Mistaken CONFIDENCE for arrogance
Not everyone can be Michael Jordan or Kobe Bryant
You play a decent role off the bench of the RetroGrow.... I'll give you that...adequate Bench warmer
You thinking you are Kobe or MJ is the definition of arrogance. Legend in your own tiny mind.
Don't ever compare me to scrub 3rd stringers like jackmeoff and company....
Too many Haters on this thread... so these pics are for you guys
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