Dud Identification Collective Knowledge.

[Grizz]

I agree with that, I know from experience I trigger it and it has to happen in the cloning process.

 

[Greyskull]

like if the clone gets too wet...
strange

tmv? i don't know...
but i remember when my grape romulan first went funky that was the first thing i thought of
maybe it really is tmv
maybe its not

cmon tests!

 

[DunHav`nFun]

Dank Frank touched on this in the other thread earlier , and it`s something I was taught back at the old sites dead and gone .....

Going from 4 plant 5 light grows to 70 plant setups with 35 in each flip room , that with increased plant number grows you HAVE to be on your rooted cut game to produce mega amounts of possible soldiers for the big light flower rooms....why ?.....

Because no 2 cuts root the same , grow the same , in the same time frame , REGARDLESS of coming from a parent plant OR multiple cuts taken from multiple donor plants already in the rotations...IOW...

With my vert rack rooms and 64 needed every 4-5 weeks @ 128 per all 4 locations , I HAD to take at least 200 cuts every 2 weeks to allow the best 64 time to root for 2 weeks , then harden off and pre-veg for another 2-3 weeks strain dependent , and I mean the VERY best "picks of the litter" so as to be able to best control canopy management with plants that did in fact root similarly and same growth structure able to be similarly pruned and shaped before goin in the bloom rooms......now...

Due to always culling the rest to the compost pile , I never experienced dud-like growth cuz of what I was taught way back in the day by all the old head Euro and left coast growers that`d been working longer inside than anyone else online.....and ....

I can tell all here that I got clone only Chem D back in the day all the ruckus about Tobacco Mosaic Virus with the dud-like symptoms and variegated leaves from hell all flavors striped and some even completely albino fanleaves , and when mine exhibited the variegation , I upped my Cal/Mag in the coco dtw setup and the symptoms all but disappeared with hella vigourous growth and flowering ensueing..... things are not always as they seem....not that I cured TMV with Cal/Mag , I`m just sayin.......

I`m not sure that this shit can be positively identified and nailed down to any one cause , shape , form , or fashion , so get ready for conflicting results from plant tissue to plant tissue from each and every specimen that gets submitted , but there IS 1 way I know around the dud syndrome as I`ve stated above....

ALWAYS take mega cuts , pick the best of the best after a long enough period of initial rooting and pre-vegging to be CERTAIN of a sound developing rootmass , and THEN throw em under the big lights , and here`s hoping no more dud-like symptoms occur after that....

If so , THEN IME , lab results will be in order if there`s disease or pest , or ANYTHING out of the norm wrong with your plants.....and no...

I`m not saying what everyone`s experiencing is grower error like some , I`m saying if your back pocket depends on rotations then hedge your bets with mega cuts so the best can be brought forth to be all they can be by end of cycle.....

Take it from someone that`s murdered 10`s of 1000`s in the quest for dialage.....anyways...Wake and bake over , so good luck guys and here`s hoping this shit gets resolved sooner than later....

Just tryin ta help from all those yrs....DHF.........

 

[papaduc]

I agree with that freds,

If the term dud is one given to a clone which doesn't perform as well as it's sisters, then it's easier to understand. Some clones take longer to establish before growing vigorously, by that time it's sisters have flown the nest and are well on track.

If a straggly clone is left to grow out as it is, it's not going to support the same kind of growth and it's sister which has built a solid foundation. It's not strange to think that the transportation of elements around a clone with a weaker framework might be less efficient than one with a good strong base, which might explain other aspects of the dud theory.

But in line with what DHF says above, when you get cuts which are under performing or get off to a bad start, it's important to cut them back to the lowest shoot once they've started growing to enable it to come back stronger - which it should - or cull it altogether.

Once there's a certain type of growth in any of my cuts, I cut them back. I'll never let them carry on vegetation from that growth. This is an important procedure which I think more people need to know the value of. Like re-invigorating an old mother plant rather than letting it grow out straggly clones, the exact same principle applies to the cuts themselves.

 

[milkyjoe]

I would be curious if anyone that grows organic with a lot of rock dust and kelp has seen the dud? Wondering if it isn't either an enzyme or cytokinin vs auxin thing.

 

[gaiusmarius]

wow i'm shocked at the turn this has taken. now people are claiming that the same clone from the same mother can become a dud, with all described visible symptoms and shit tasting bud, or it can turn into a shit hot yield of stash? how the fuck is that possible? i can see a clone producing less bud because it was flowered too early or it's neighbors out grew it, but what it does produce has allways in my whole grow life, been the same. it's one of the whole points about using clones. so yeah i can see it looking different, but the taste and quality should be there never the less. if not then something has fundamentally changed about the rules of plant biology it seems to me?

also i'm not talking about clones that go to different gardens where they are submited to different situations and possible pathogens etc. talking about multiple clones off the same mum grown in the same setup.

 

[xxxstr8edgexxx]

All these suggestions seem really off the mark. I think it's something microbial. Not exactly sure what but I've talked to a few folks now and it fits all the patterns of a pest vectored pathogen. It also seems too new a phenomenon to be a clone selection or nutrient issue. People have been growing poorly and taking crappy cuttings for decades. This is less than 8 years old. It spreads to other cuts. People have reported that once this arrives they see other cuts start dudding. Seems really obvious to me based on the pattern that it's a
Plant disease spread by a pest. All these ideas about cloning practices and soul ammendments wouldn't fit the new plant problem category. If it were any of the these other cultural based things people have mentioned it would have been going on since the seventies. It's interesting that it has emerged during the time frame of two fairly new pests to pop up in the indoor cannabis scene. Bms and root aphids are about as new to the scene as this. So yes tmv or phytoplAsma would fit the bill. If it's phytoplAsma I'm guessing tmv will be commonly present as well because they vector in the same way. It seems unlikely to me to be tmv only because it's been around and hasnt been known to always show this trait. But I'm thinking tmv is the most logical hypothesis outside of phytoplAsma I've seen discussed. I'm leaning towards one of these two with a bias toward phytoplasma. I wish that I had a better sample to submit for the tmv on that dud. It was suitable for phytoplAsma but they said it was a questionable sample size for tmv. The second plant I tested was for tmv but it wasn't a dud. It was just a test based on the swirly pattern. They did say they would try to test the amount they had but it would be inconclusive if negative.

 

[xxxstr8edgexxx]

Bingo. You and I are in agreement here. The genetic drift argument has no biology based reasoning. Viruses and other pathogens make way more sense. Not convinced genetic drift exists to be honest. .

I agree with that freds,

If the term dud is one given to a clone which doesn't perform as well as it's sisters, then it's easier to understand. Some clones take longer to establish before growing vigorously, by that time it's sisters have flown the nest and are well on track.

If a straggly clone is left to grow out as it is, it's not going to support the same kind of growth and it's sister which has built a solid foundation. It's not strange to think that the transportation of elements around a clone with a weaker framework might be less efficient than one with a good strong base, which might explain other aspects of the dud theory.

But in line with what DHF says above, when you get cuts which are under performing or get off to a bad start, it's important to cut them back to the lowest shoot once they've started growing to enable it to come back stronger - which it should - or cull it altogether.

Once there's a certain type of growth in any of my cuts, I cut them back. I'll never let them carry on vegetation from that growth. This is an important procedure which I think more people need to know the value of. Like re-invigorating an old mother plant rather than letting it grow out straggly clones, the exact same principle applies to the cuts themselves.

 

[Sam_Skunkman]

I agree 25 year old clones no drift.
-SamS

 

[redlaser]

I was wondering this myself. It seems like most that have had dudding issues run coco and synthetic nutes. (not actually sure on the nute part) Any organic growers with dud like symptoms? It seems to be a cultural thing to me. I am slowly switching to organic soil with some dudded plants I picked up in March and they are looking healthier but still no smell. Strains are Sour dub, animal cookies, wifi, BW, LVPk and gg4.

I would be curious if anyone that grows organic with a lot of rock dust and kelp has seen the dud? Wondering if it isn't either an enzyme or cytokinin vs auxin thing.

 

[cyat]

a mother can produce dudded and healthy cuts... it happens to different strains and growers... out of ten plat blue dream cuts I got from a buddy 3 were duds... this is type of dud is not from broadmites.. but the kind that exhibits small leaves and no stretch in flower, buds will be tiny too...

I have started bleaching my pots and bamboo stakes just in case its being transmitted that way

are duds just stragglers? I dont think so, duds of this kind cannot turn back into healthy plants.. I have saved plants from broadmite dudding and pulled a quality harvest though

 

[amannamedtruth]

i grow mostly organic and have been getting duds. Whats everybody's silica use like? Ima see if that improves the look of the leaves...I run azomite but maybe not enough?

 

[whadeezlrg]

silica is a cornerstone of my recipe, it hasn't seemed to de-dudd anything for me...in fact nothing has really reverted a dudd back to a healthy plant in my experience, hence why I'm leaning towards something going on during the rooting process thats causing this.

 

[whatthe215]

biological fungicides are helping the most. Regalia, Actinovate, Mycostop and OGBiowar.

i don't know if it's fighting a fungus, or perhaps just keeping roots healthy enough that they can fight the dud pathogen.

fungus gnats seem to make it much worse.

Does anyone with dud issues NOT have any fungus gnats at all? I mean zero gnats, not low population just controlled.

 

[Loc Dog]

Do anyone's dud's resemble these pictures -

https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=177527

Here is a general link about TMV -

http://www.ipm.iastate.edu/ipm/hortnews/2014/04-11/tmv.html

http://www.buydutchseeds.com/blog/the-effect-of-tobacco-mosaic-virus-on-cannabis-plants.html

Here is a home test for TMV -

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zD4z3PHCqIc

I am not claiming that this is the problem, but the only thing that makes sense for my problems, since TMV can be transmitted, by seeds, or just touching an infected plant, then touching a healthy plant, without washing hands with 10% bleach or milk. Mine came from seeds.

Will have my test strips early this week.

Do not want to post too much, till I am sure. Have plenty of links to TMV info, so PM me if wanted.

They have made TMV resistant Tomatoes, by transposing the "N" gene from tobacco plant with target in DNA, which would require a molecular biologist. Those plants will develop a hole at the infection, and will not spread throughout entire plant.

Some have said it was insects, which is one of many ways it can be transmitted.

It could also be a mutation, that might not be picked up by TMV test -

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sunn-hemp_mosaic_virus

http://www.savecannabis.org/2013/04/hemp-mosaic-virus-2/

I have no idea if RNA pro is a hoax.

Here is another thread from 3 years ago, with someone identifying TMV with the Agdia test. Here is link to thread. It is post #67 -

https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=202824

For people that get TMV, they say rip it and dispose of properly. If that is not an option, the things I have read that can mitigate. Have no idea if they work -

Temps under 80F - to slow spreading.
Heat seeds to 122F for 45 minutes - to prevent seeds from having it. - someone said they sterilize to 450F trimming tools, so this may be BS.
Harpin Protein - to boost immune response.
Salicylic Acid - To boost immune response.
If genetics must be sustained, clone only the very newest top growth, and isolate, just in case.

Posted by Floweryfield -
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]you will get problems with a TMV infection in the following cases:
# pest infestation
# fungal diseases
# poorly selected genetics
# f1-hybrids[/FONT]

 

[RetroGrow]

All these suggestions seem really off the mark. I think it's something microbial. Not exactly sure what but I've talked to a few folks now and it fits all the patterns of a pest vectored pathogen. It also seems too new a phenomenon to be a clone selection or nutrient issue. People have been growing poorly and taking crappy cuttings for decades. This is less than 8 years old. It spreads to other cuts. People have reported that once this arrives they see other cuts start dudding. Seems really obvious to me based on the pattern that it's a
Plant disease spread by a pest. All these ideas about cloning practices and soul ammendments wouldn't fit the new plant problem category. If it were any of the these other cultural based things people have mentioned it would have been going on since the seventies. It's interesting that it has emerged during the time frame of two fairly new pests to pop up in the indoor cannabis scene. Bms and root aphids are about as new to the scene as this. So yes tmv or phytoplAsma would fit the bill. If it's phytoplAsma I'm guessing tmv will be commonly present as well because they vector in the same way. It seems unlikely to me to be tmv only because it's been around and hasnt been known to always show this trait. But I'm thinking tmv is the most logical hypothesis outside of phytoplAsma I've seen discussed. I'm leaning towards one of these two with a bias toward phytoplasma. I wish that I had a better sample to submit for the tmv on that dud. It was suitable for phytoplAsma but they said it was a questionable sample size for tmv. The second plant I tested was for tmv but it wasn't a dud. It was just a test based on the swirly pattern. They did say they would try to test the amount they had but it would be inconclusive if negative.

Agree that it's a pathogen. Definitely not nitrogen toxicity or anything to do with nutrients/grower error. It seems logical that it's either a virus or phytoplasma or both, with the possibility of "weaponized" fusarium not discounted for some of the cases reported earlier in this thread. However, remember that TMV does not vector in the same way, as it does not need a pest to vector it. It can be passed through seeds and just by contact with another infected plant, tools, hands, etc. Also, phytoplasmas are known to be vectored by leaf hoppers, not fungus gnats, BMs or root aphids. This is not to say they could not jump to a different pest, but there is no confirmation of this. It's only speculation.
OTOH, TMV can be dormant and not cause any problems, and it also can be "awakened", presumably by stress, or susceptibility of certain strains. This would explain why certain plants grow out of it, particularly after being placed in the sun. If TMV is in a line, it's not going away. It will be passed by seeds or cuts to succeeding generations, usually not causing harm. This MIGHT explain why some strains have problems which endure, ie, SourDubb, and are passed on to crosses as well.
This is just a theory as to one possible cause. It might be multiple issues combined. When enough test results come in, we will eventually know.

 

[Loc Dog]

All these suggestions seem really off the mark. I think it's something microbial. Not exactly sure what but I've talked to a few folks now and it fits all the patterns of a pest vectored pathogen. It also seems too new a phenomenon to be a clone selection or nutrient issue. People have been growing poorly and taking crappy cuttings for decades. This is less than 8 years old. It spreads to other cuts. People have reported that once this arrives they see other cuts start dudding. Seems really obvious to me based on the pattern that it's a
Plant disease spread by a pest. All these ideas about cloning practices and soul ammendments wouldn't fit the new plant problem category. If it were any of the these other cultural based things people have mentioned it would have been going on since the seventies. It's interesting that it has emerged during the time frame of two fairly new pests to pop up in the indoor cannabis scene. Bms and root aphids are about as new to the scene as this. So yes tmv or phytoplAsma would fit the bill. If it's phytoplAsma I'm guessing tmv will be commonly present as well because they vector in the same way. It seems unlikely to me to be tmv only because it's been around and hasnt been known to always show this trait. But I'm thinking tmv is the most logical hypothesis outside of phytoplAsma I've seen discussed. I'm leaning towards one of these two with a bias toward phytoplasma. I wish that I had a better sample to submit for the tmv on that dud. It was suitable for phytoplAsma but they said it was a questionable sample size for tmv. The second plant I tested was for tmv but it wasn't a dud. It was just a test based on the swirly pattern. They did say they would try to test the amount they had but it would be inconclusive if negative.

Exactly!!! I have grown Autoflowers and had beautiful results, indoors hydro. Have other outdoor plants from 2 weeks before, which are cranking, and beautiful.

These seeds, who came from GG4 grower, are F-ed. 4 of ten grew, 1 started earlier is average, other 3 are dwarfs.

Genetically, they are a Sourdubb hybrid, I think.

Will have test Monday or Tuesday.

 

[morningdewd]

so what about all the inbreeding and sex reversal going on in breeding .if an evil professor took humans and reversed their sex and had a girl screw herself and have children they would have all kinds of health issues.dad impregnants daughter she has a kid he impregnates the granddaughter.brother bangs mom.after a while these kids are gonna look like Alfred E. Newman or some kid on the front porch in Deliverance. and have all kinds of health issues .I would think resistance to viruses and bacteria would be fucked up.the Royal family in England actually had to start out crossing as they started to get fuck ed up from trying to stay Blue Bloods by inbreeding.

 

[xxxstr8edgexxx]

so what about all the inbreeding and sex reversal going on in breeding .if an evil professor took humans and reversed their sex and had a girl screw herself and have children they would have all kinds of health issues.dad impregnants daughter she has a kid he impregnates the granddaughter.brother bangs mom.after a while these kids are gonna look like Alfred E. Newman or some kid on the front porch in Deliverance. and have all kinds of health issues .I would think resistance to viruses and bacteria would be fucked up.the Royal family in England actually had to start out crossing as they started to get fuck ed up from trying to stay Blue Bloods by inbreeding.

Except that these aren't people and plant genetics aren't necessarily even close to similar in genetic vulnerability due to inbreeding as much as we are. Not saying it doesn't cause some problems but I would doubt it in the relatively short span of genets we are talking about here. Some organisms ONLY inbreed while others evolved over time to exclusively self impregnate. While they do make reasonable sounding analogies the rules for human genetics aren't the same as those for plants.

 

[Elmer Bud]

so what about all the inbreeding and sex reversal going on in breeding .if an evil professor took humans and reversed their sex and had a girl screw herself and have children they would have all kinds of health issues.dad impregnants daughter she has a kid he impregnates the granddaughter.brother bangs mom.after a while these kids are gonna look like Alfred E. Newman or some kid on the front porch in Deliverance. and have all kinds of health issues .I would think resistance to viruses and bacteria would be fucked up.the Royal family in England actually had to start out crossing as they started to get fuck ed up from trying to stay Blue Bloods by inbreeding.

G`day MD

The Habsburgs are a better example of inbreeding . When it comes to Royalty .

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/House_of_Habsburg

Cousin marriage is the marriage between people who share at least one grandparent. The attitude towards such marriages varies considerably across cultures and legal jurisdictions. It may be considered ideal and actively encouraged, or uncommon but still legal, or considered incest and legally prohibited.

Marriages between first and second cousins account for over 20% of marriages worldwide.

Now try comparing Apples with apples . Plants are not humans .

The Deliverance ref is amusing . So if you see it in a Hollywood Movie it must be true ?

Thanks for sharin

EB .