Dud Identification Collective Knowledge.

[Hammerhead]

Its hard to grasp what others are getting when we have not encountered these problems. I have had plants that under perform but no dud's..When was the last dud reported are there any pics of these duds. Do they look like the dud's from back when this 1st started. I would think all dud's should be hay from what people said they had back then.. I agree if Chitosan cures the dud's then this is a mute subject this needs to be confirmed. Everyone was 100% sure it was a virus when this 1st started. Now 100% sure it's Nematodes. I think we need to be careful with being so positive what it is and what it is not until proven.. Anyway I still what to see some pics

 

[Mikenite69]

I am with everything you just said PF I couldn't agree more. I will not post anymore on this matter until I get a dud or have a issue which I hope never. I will continue to sit back and read this thread when helpful info is posted.

 

[Hammerhead]

Hopefully this is but a distant bad memory for all. If someone does get a dud at least there is a plan now. I'm curious if the Chitosan will recover a duded plant or is it too late once its that far into flower.

 

[HL45]

I haven't been 100% on any of the causes. The only thing I'm 100% of is that nobody has a straighforward explanation of my nodeless witches broom growth on my gg4 and AFAIK I'm the only Indoor grower to see this growth... Even the co author od hemp pests and diseases has not seen growth like I have irl..

If you haven't looked at my pics please do they are in the start of the thread. Many people said growers error but in the same system with the same two part pH stable feed (jacks) in the next room which has air exchanging 2x a minute with my dudded gg4(same environment) I grew plants bigger than most peoples outdoors. Again the pics are there..filter posts by me if you can't find them.

I left the gg4$ in my windowsill for a month or more to quarantine and be sure there was no BMS or Ra's. In the same rooter cubes i boight them in from the cup...If there was either of these pests the plants would have been dead.. I have had both bms and ras and succesfully ridden myself of the . I know what they do and what it takes...Perhaps this allowed the possible stem nematpdes to take over the plant, perhaps and possible being the key words.

If you haves cured your duds or rectified your poorly performing plants share what cured them or what you did.
If you have or have had duds post pics of them.

If you have tested for anything on your duds post results.

Otherwise stay out of the thread..lots of people who don't know what a dud posting babble is distracting from the thread when they really have no horse in the race.

What the 215 posted a video of a stem.nematode and as of now thats all we really have to go off of.

Storm shadow posted lots of good cited information on potential causes.

Sam skunkman posted a report of witches broom growth in Chinese hemp.

Straight edge spent money and did legwork to have duds tested.

Other members contributed as well but the four above contirbutions are what I remember the most.

Growing with chitosan seems to be the best fix and preventative maintainance at this point.

If you havent seen my pics and don't have any constructive input don't post in the thread.

 

[RetroGrow]

That's funny coming from you retro when a couple of weeks ago I was saying not one test being done but your ass was screaming to the roof tops "the duds we are dealing here is dirty dick dispaci" it's been documented isn't that what the fuck you said? I you want I can dig in my plus ratings and dig them out?

I was the one saying I don't give a fuck what bro science says because of the fact u see a nematode it's automatically called dirty dick. I understand that they are the only ones that commonly get inside a plant but with as small as a nematode is I don't think it will be the first time in history that a different nematode could have wound up inside a plant that normally wouldn't be there.

Make up your mind what side your on. Are you no doubting yourself and what u been preaching? Like I said weeks ago until I see a test saying dirty dicks I am not believing what I am hearing.

It's not like I have a personal issue with you either retro but it seems now that storm called you out now you have switched sides about the testing. Now you see why I have been skeptical?

None of use are nematologist sure we can assume dirty dick all we want and you guys could possibly be right a 100% but until I see some test we will never know the true cause of dudding or even if it's dirty dicking dispaci.

I'm NOT switching sides about testing. I have always been calling for testing. Go back and read the thread. I was the one who first posted the lab where they did testing in California for nematodes. I called them on the phone to confirm. Posted many times where to get the testing done. You came to the thread late, so you missed that part, I guess. There are known causes of duds: cyclamen and broad mites. This is proven, and has been observed by anyone who has had them, although storm shadow now denies that, even though he posted about it many times in the BM thread. Then there are the speculative "causes", one being DDs, which, if you go back and read, I was the first person to identify them by name in this thread. I've done a lot of research on them, and don't discount the possibility at all. The problem is, there is not a single test result confirming this. I find that odd, especially after THREE YEARS of so-called dudding. If you had "duds" of unknown origin, wouldn't you have them tested, knowing that there are labs that test for both them and the elusive phytoplasmas, which were the first guess as to the cause?
"Screaming to the rooftops"? C'mon man. You're confusing me with storm shadow. He's the one who has been doing the screaming, unless you don't consider giant print and multiple, repetitive posts designed to cover pages with his posts, in order to "shout down" or obliterate other's posts. Not my style to be screaming about anything.
When Chimera comes on the scene and gives his opinion on what the cause is of some of what people are calling duds, and says it's magnesium deficiency, I take his opinion seriously, because he knows a whole hell of a lot more about Cannabis than me or storm shadow. I respect his opinion greatly. On the other hand, storm shadow is full of bluster, and has been SHOUTING in multiple threads that DDs are the one and only cause of dudding, that is, after it was all phytoplasma, his original conclusion, even though he hasn't a single test confirming any of this. He made these claims in the Glue thread. You can check it if you have forgotten. The problem with this is, it's disinformation, ie, not true, as we know of other causes of dudding (BMs). No one else who has sent samples in for testing has gotten a positive test result for either phytoplasmas or Ditylenchus dipsaci.
I'm going to go with Chimera's knowledge, until a positive test result comes in from someone. I don't say it's impossible, only that not one single person has had any confirmation, even though the testing services are there and well known. Now the Sour Dubb "dudding" or issues if you prefer, is a real mystery. I would love to see some testing on that strain to see what's going on there. I never said that Ditylenchus dipsaci was the only subject of this thread, although it morphed into that after other topics were exhausted. I have already named other well known causes.

 

[Hammerhead]

I have seen many pics all many months ago. Since then have you got anymore ???. Those you got originally should have been destroyed was that done ??. I'm curious if there are any new reports.. most of your questions have been answered by SS.. if your reading this thread there are reports of Chitosan killing off the stem todes leaving ther garden free of duds. If your telling me to stay out of this thread thats not going to happen sorry... You can leave your anger at the door. .thats exactly what im talking about. the hate ,rudeness attacks on others, bickering needs to stop..Or maybe some just cant help themselves and enjoy that kind of stuff. If that's how you want to continue that's your deal I wont get sucked into it. I will continue to post my thoughts and ideas as I see fit.

 

[Allendawg]

Chimera is not a certified pest advisor licensed in the state of Cali! He's a breeder I've read a post or response (years ago) to a post regarding Powder Mildew he was dead wrong! If Chimera is saying Todes don't infect MJ I would question his background! I can definitely understand why Storm Shawdow is able to get rid of Todes vs. commercial farmers; his set up is completely different! If you suggest to a farmer he should use Chitosan he will laugh @ you but that doesn't mean it won't work for Storm Shawdow!

 

[Hammerhead]

I agree he is not all knowing. Same goes for Sam. They both have more knowledge about this stuff than I do. being wrong is not a bad thing that's how I learn by my mistakes.. If some one can test this out it will only help confirm. I sure as hell would use it as a preventative measure. I think adding it to anyone's feeding routine wont hurt. I'm still trying to find a cheap USA source of the stuff..

 

[HL45]

If you haves cured your duds or rectified your poorly performing plants share what cured them or what you did.
If you have or have had duds post pics of them.

If you have tested for anything on your duds post results.

Otherwise stay out of the thread..lots of people who don't know what a dud posting babble is distracting from the thread when they really have no horse in the race.

What the 215 posted a video of a stem.nematode and as of now thats all we really have to go off of.

Storm shadow posted lots of good cited information on potential causes.

Sam skunkman posted a report of witches broom growth in Chinese hemp.

Straight edge spent money and did legwork to have duds tested.

Other members contributed as well but the four above contirbutions are what I remember the most.

Growing with chitosan seems to be the best fix and preventative maintainance at this point.

If you havent seen my pics and don't have any constructive input please don't post in the thread.[/QUOTE]

I'm sorry you interpreted that in an angry tone pf, please don't add to the distractions. I agree the bickering needs to stop thats why i posted the outlines above. There was nothing constructive in your post no new thoughts or ideas. If you have some feel free but your just adding to the bs you and I don't want to see.

If I had known straight edge was testing at the time would have sent the duds to him for testing. That is truly what should have been done as I have had the most unique "dudding". Yes I did in fact destroy them. Yes I have a big ziploc bag of the red orange power aka chitosan.

We don't need any more bickering. I started this thread and at a few points everyone was working together . its my intent to keep a clean from this point on. I quoted my post for the sake of this thread once more.

If you haves cured your duds or rectified your poorly performing plants share what cured them or what you did.
If you have or have had duds post pics of them.

If you have tested for anything on your duds post results.

Pests,diseases whether viral fungal or bacterial and environmental issues have all been mentioned as a cause of duds. If you have an idea or guess of what the cause maybe that has not been mentioned such as a different species of nematode just post the cause with a question mark?

Otherwise PLEASE stay out of the thread..

 

[Loc Dog]

A criteria for dud submission's should be made. With numerous questions answered, and photo's submitted. Just to start - Indoor/Outdoor, media grown in, how fed, was PH and PPM monitored, were the plants misted, or kept very damp, how far a long in growth did symptoms appear, strength of feed, lighting, was it tested, and numerous other things.

I am still wondering if the small amount of THC in stalks and stems, kills DD once in flower, and the damage is already done to the structure of the plant.

I do not have the problem. My problem is grower stupidity, with coir.

Would like to be able to put sticky at top of this post, with an area just for submissions, following an agreed upon reporting criteria, that covers as much as possible.

Again I do not have it. I fucked up overfeeding, then underfeeding.

 

[HL45]

Here is the thread on chitosan, only ornamental shares some great knowledge in that thread. Chitosan seems to be the only cure for duds ATM. Let's keep the chitosan talk in the chitosan thread please.
https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?threadid=251272

 

[Hammerhead]

Sorry I don't agree with anything you said. I have already received thanks for my input so I guess its just you that has a issue with my comments. If you want to turn this into he said she said crap I can just add you to ignore. You are not adding anything to the discussion but more crap.. I will continue to post what ever I fell helps weather you like it or not. Its people like you that keep the information from flowing . you don't like what you see so you attack others..You don't like what I post put me on ignore that my suggestion to you. you will just continue to attack me for what ever I post so whats the point I see no winners in a stupid internet argument especially when someone attacks another opinion. How much really got done her absolutely nothing.. what did you add by doing that. you think that helped anyone. If you did not know posting under different names in the same thread is a TOU violation. I think everything I posted was helpful in no way detracted from the topic but you surly did. If your going to play mother hen then ya this is not my kind of thread. I will move on you can deal with your dud issues. I will keep my info to those that appreciate it. Good luck with your duds


-PF

 

[Elmer Bud]

So how is it...that I was getting DUD's 24-7.... Magically Apply Chitosan.... and over 1,000lbs later Indoors and Out.... Not one Branch

G`day Stormie

Sorry bro I`m gonna call you out on that one .
Maybe over couple hundred elbows. Over 1000 elbows in the last 6 months . I find very hard to believe .


Thanks for sharin

EB .

 

[RetroGrow]

Here is the thread on chitosan, only ornamental shares some great knowledge in that thread. Chitosan seems to be the only cure for duds ATM. Let's keep the chitosan talk in the chitosan thread please.
https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?threadid=251272

You realize that there are different kinds of "duds", with different causes, right?

 

[HL45]

Retro, who was probably the first person to say that in this thread?

Props to wt215 for getting those pics up!!!



I dont know where the duds come from, and I havent been able to identify in any of the other photos if someone else has fan leafs growing out of fan leaves like my supposed "dud"

I think bugs, genetic material or fungal/bacterial are all logical candidates for a cause of duds. Thats right, It could come from anywhere. I just want to help other folks identify the growth that may be a telltale sign of a crappy harvest to be.

As of right now IMO "dud" is simply a terminology for an under performing cut. The under performance could be for a myriad of reasons.


I started this thread to educate and become educated about the issue as stated in the end of the thread title "Collective Knowledge"
.

Just trying to get to the bottom of this.

I have no personal issues with anyone including you pf..going back over my posts in this thread I can see you have continually misinterpreted my posts.. I tried to be a post whore to get pm priveledges to contact you but im still waiting for them.

The title of this thread is clear , but everyone putting in their 2¢ has turned this thread into a load of crap. I am personally in touch with a nematologist and have invited them here. They looked at all this childish banter and said no thanx...troll city were his words. I told him I will do my best to get this thread more adult. They hopefully are gonna explain a away to put a stem on somethng like a petri dish and get the nematodes to grpw and that can be sent in for testing for free. He has contracts with rec growers and said they will definitely foot the bill.. I am trying to share this with everyone.

He says there are other nematodes that could be responsible...so if anyone has interest in getting to the bottoms of this please pipe down unless you have pics or info like I posted in the guidelines that this nematode guy basically gave me.. There's a reason I am getting back in this thread after not participating and it's because of this guy.

I showed him.my nodeless pics and it sparked his interest immediately. He's got labrat buddies up and down the west coast and his method of propagating or isolating them will be free of cannabis so it will be completely legal to turn in..

Again if you care then share if you have experience. Otherwise keep it quiet please.

If you don't care carry on and muddle the thread.

 

[xxxstr8edgexxx]

Retro, who was probably the first person to say that in this thread?



I have no personal issues with anyone including you pf..going back over my posts in this thread I can see you have continually misinterpreted my posts.. I tried to be a post whore to get pm priveledges to contact you but im still waiting for them.

The title of this thread is clear , but everyone putting in their 2¢ has turned this thread into a load of crap. I am personally in touch with a nematologist and have invited them here. They looked at all this childish banter and said no thanx...troll city were his words. I told him I will do my best to get this thread more adult. They hopefully are gonna explain a away to put a stem on somethng like a petri dish and get the nematodes to grpw and that can be sent in for testing for free. He has contracts with rec growers and said they will definitely foot the bill.. I am trying to share this with everyone.

He says there are other nematodes that could be responsible...so if anyone has interest in getting to the bottoms of this please pipe down unless you have pics or info like I posted in the guidelines that this nematode guy basically gave me.. There's a reason I am getting back in this thread after not participating and it's because of this guy.

I showed him.my nodeless pics and it sparked his interest immediately. He's got labrat buddies up and down the west coast and his method of propagating or isolating them will be free of cannabis so it will be completely legal to turn in..

Again if you care then share if you have experience. Otherwise keep it quiet please.

If you don't care carry on and muddle the thread.

there we go. thats what im talkin bout right here. someone get this man a dud! nice networking for all us mouth breathing knuckle draggers, nice one!!

 

[VenturaHwy]

You realize that there are different kinds of "duds", with different causes, right?

OK then I will define my dudd as a plant that is sick and it is not grower error. I don't know if there is a pathogen or what. It appears like there is something toxic in the system but I use Pro Earth potting soil made locally and my Star Dawg is perfect.

Three plants that I got from Cloneville Seattle had this. The Sour Diesel, the White Fire, and the GSC. Chopped all three a week or two into flowering. I suspect a chemical was sprayed on the plant and permanently altered the genetics but I really am just guessing. Whatever it is it didn't spread to my Star Dawg :big grin:

Sour Diesel on left, skywalker from seed RP on right

chemical mutation -
Colchicine is a mutagenic agent and as such helps in doubling the chromosome numbers by preventing the development of cell wall. However in some instances it will create mutations and distortions in distribution of chromosomes or genes in recombinant events.

 

[RetroGrow]

Retro, who was probably the first person to say that in this thread?



I have no personal issues with anyone including you pf..going back over my posts in this thread I can see you have continually misinterpreted my posts.. I tried to be a post whore to get pm priveledges to contact you but im still waiting for them.

The title of this thread is clear , but everyone putting in their 2¢ has turned this thread into a load of crap. I am personally in touch with a nematologist and have invited them here. They looked at all this childish banter and said no thanx...troll city were his words. I told him I will do my best to get this thread more adult. They hopefully are gonna explain a away to put a stem on somethng like a petri dish and get the nematodes to grpw and that can be sent in for testing for free. He has contracts with rec growers and said they will definitely foot the bill.. I am trying to share this with everyone.

He says there are other nematodes that could be responsible...so if anyone has interest in getting to the bottoms of this please pipe down unless you have pics or info like I posted in the guidelines that this nematode guy basically gave me.. There's a reason I am getting back in this thread after not participating and it's because of this guy.

I showed him.my nodeless pics and it sparked his interest immediately. He's got labrat buddies up and down the west coast and his method of propagating or isolating them will be free of cannabis so it will be completely legal to turn in..

Again if you care then share if you have experience. Otherwise keep it quiet please.

If you don't care carry on and muddle the thread.

Well, I didn't know if you knew or what. You are a smart guy with a scientific mind, so you can understand that there are different types of duds. I have tons of pictures of duds from cyclamen mites, but you seem to be implying something else. The testing sites were posted long ago by me, but nobody claiming to have phytoplasmas or nematodes has had any testing done. I have also done a lot of research on the subject, and have been on the phone with several agricultural universities about the toxins injected by broad and cyclamen mites, and yes, nematodes also. All three inject a toxin, or growth inhibitor, but no one knows what that is. You can Google it all day long and you will come up with the same thing. "Generic, nameless, toxin", but I think it is relevant that in all three cases, toxins are involved. Now I have prevented duds in cylamen infected plants, before I knew it was cyclamens, simply by using aspirin, a powerful immune system booster. In fact, as you may know, the plants immune system IS salicylic acid. So it's no surprise that any immune system booster, including salicylic acid or chitinase will possibly help whatever problem is afflicting your plants. It's also possible that it's not a pathogen at all, but rather a magnesium deficiency, as Chimera suggested. Different duds, different causes? What about the Sour Dubb line, which seems to have a genetic disposition to at times dud out, or at least have irregular growth anomolies? That's, presumably another type of "dud". As far as nematodes, in all my reading, there is only one type that gets up into the stem: alfalfa Stem Nematodes. The rest live in the root zone. If your nematologist buddy knows different, please correct me, but that is my understanding from reading and from calling some of these testing sites and talking nematodes with the specialists. And, so, it's been said a thousand times in this thread: get some testing done if you have a theory. But the peep(s) who claim(s) nematodes has refused to do that, which leads me to believe he's full of it. Meanwhile, I will try to find pictures of duds that I had, and will post them here if I do. Basically, plants smell like hay after about the 5th or 6th week of smelling normal. Trichomes disappear, pistils gone/discolored. In short: garbage, that went downhill suddenly and rapidly, late in flower.

 

[iTarzan]

G`day Stormie

Sorry bro I`m gonna call you out on that one .
Maybe over couple hundred elbows. Over 1000 elbows in the last 6 months . I find very hard to believe .


Thanks for sharin

EB .

You would be way wrong calling BS. There are people growing huge amounts of weed and SS is most likely one of them.

I posted some stuff and nobody cared or commented. I was going to post about how to take that red colored powderized crab and lobster shell which is not water soluble and turn it into a useable chitosan solution but because the group as a whole tolerates Retro Grow and Retro Grow ruins every thread he joins you people can go figure it out yourselves.

Making some seeds like Chimera and growing a huge 200 light warehouse of salable buds like some members on here are 2 way different accomplishments.

 

[Skunkbeard]

Here's a copy/paste from my email correspondences with the plant pathologist I submitted my samples to. I gave them 3 different varieties to include: cured flowers, whole stem/ branches (6"-10"), leaves, root balls, and soil samples @1inch and 3inches deep.

"I just wanted to give you an update. I saw what appeared to be some possible broad mite eggs on some of the leaves, so I am letting it incubate to see if they will hatch and I can positively ID them. I checked the stems and root tissue and did not see anything obvious, but am culturing those to see if anything shows up."

"I checked out your plants, and what I thought were broad mite eggs were actually resin droplet production from the stem. The stem and roots that you gave me were clean. The roots look fabulous, white and healthy. The stem did not have any indication of a plant pathogen, and the crown of the stem was clean. There were no root aphids in or around the roots, so that is ruled out. The leaves looked healthy. I saw a couple of spots that might be a foliar fungi, but when I chopped them up under the microscope, there were no spores. "

"Based on your suggestion, I retested some of the plant material for the usual cocktail of viruses (Tomato Spotted Wilt, Tobacco Mosaic, Cucumber Mosaic, Impatiens Necrotic Spot) and samples labeled A1 Diesel leaf, A2 Orange leaf, C2 bud, B2 bud and A2 bud were negative for all the viruses. I did not test A1, B1, and C1 buds since you were not having problems with those."

"I am attaching an invoice to the email. The ELISA tests are a bit expensive, but for peace of mind, I think they are worth it."

I N V O I C E

5 ELISA comb tests (TSWV, TMV, INSV, CMV); $25.00 each……………………………………..$125.00

Diagnostic Examination (microscopy, culture)..……………………………………………………….$ 75.00

Total $200.00

Payment can be remitted to:


*Again, I'm simply posting my observations in my own garden.... pictures to follow.