Does government have a social contract mandate?. Does it exist ? Arguments preferred over insults please.

[Captain Red Eye]

From time to time, the term "social contract" is used as a rationale or rebuttal for why government can or should do X.
Some people consider that a social contract is the instrument which gives Government authority, some do not think that.

What do you think? Why? What is the evidence behind your belief


To open the conversation, below is information sourced from Hogeye bills website "Magic Contracts".

 

[Captain Red Eye]

Statist claim: There is an implicit social contract.​

Fallacy:​

Statists assert that because you live somewhere (or have a birth certificate, or citizenship, or paid taxes at one point, have a driver's license, have driven on state-owned roads, etc.), you have agreed to an implicit, unwritten contract to follow the state's laws and pay whatever taxes they demand.

E.g., "Our government was here before you. You may not have signed up but your parents signed you up. It's called a birth certificate and it says you're a citizen of this country and with that title comes all the financial and legal obligations and responsibilities."

Response:​

A contract requires two parties; it is not a unilateral instrument. Furthermore, it requires a meeting of the minds (effectively, both parties understand what they're agreeing to), clear terms, actual agreement, and exchange of considerations (you don't need a contract to give a gift).

Old papers signed by the dead are not contracts binding on the living. You can't sign a contract for other people (without their explicit permission, e.g., power of attorney).

To the assertion that a birth certificate is such a contract (agreement), I point out that one person may not sign a contract for another. A parent may act as guardian, and act on a child's behalf, but that still does not entitle them to make promises and enter into obligations for that person. (DBR)

A constitution is nothing more than a piece of paper that people running government "agree" to abide by. It is not an agreement with the "citizens" (or should I say "subjects") of the government. It is a unilateral set of edicts. (DV)

An excellent illustration of this principle of the tyrant goes like this:

A Wolf, meeting with a Lamb astray from the fold, resolved not to lay violent hands on him, but to find some plea to justify to the Lamb the Wolf's right to eat him.
He thus addressed him: "Sirrah, last year you grossly insulted me."
"Indeed," bleated the Lamb in a mournful tone of voice, "I was not then born."
Then said the Wolf, "You feed in my pasture."
"No, good sir," replied the Lamb, "I have not yet tasted grass."
Again said the Wolf, "You drink of my well."
"No," exclaimed the Lamb, "I never yet drank water, for as yet my mother's milk is both food and drink to me."
Upon which the Wolf seized him and ate him up, saying, "Well! I won't remain supperless, even though you refute every one of my imputations."
The tyrant will always find a pretext for his tyranny.
- The Wolf and the Lamb, Aesop's Fables

 

[Captain Red Eye]

that sounds like a social contract to me

stop violating my consent to post

 

[Captain Red Eye]

@audiohi

Social cooperation in traffic situations does not provide proof there is a "social contract" that government has with all the people for nearly every aspect of their lives.

Social cooperation in traffic situations can occur on a voluntary basis, it can occur with or without an all encompassing "social contract".

Agreements made between the owners of a road and the users of a road can and should be made for clarity. and safety etc.

Any agreements made about how roads will be administered do not intend or imply other agreements beyond the scope of the road agreeements though.

For instance, you and I have a hypothetical agreement for me to plow your road, We both agree to the terms. neither was under duress to make the agreement. Our road agreement doesn't grant me any right to assume your consent in other things does it ?

 

[nepalnt21]

this is great in political discussions in philosophy class, but in practice?

so again: what does your utopia look like and how do we get there?

 

[armedoldhippy]

so again: what does your utopia look like and how do we get there?

the Heavens Gate folks had an idea about that...

 

[Captain Red Eye]

this is great in political discussions in philosophy class, but in practice?

so again: what does your utopia look like and how do we get there?

First, are you saying there is or is not an existing "social contract" as frequently used by people as a catchall term when making a point about why some government action or another is valid.

If you don't think there is a social contract , I'd be happy to discuss ideas and concerns about what you erroneously term "my utopia".

If you do think a "social contract" exists could you give me your reasons and some examples why ?

Thanks.

the Heavens Gate folks had an idea about that...

Please see my response above and feel free to answer the questions posed to nepalnt21.

I don't know what Heavens Gate People think, but I'd like to know what YOU think about a social contract.
Does it exist? IIf you believe it does, what is the evidence of it?

I'd be happy to discuss other related things further along in any conversations that arise in this thread, but first I'd like to see where you are on the existence or nonexistence of a social contract.

Thanks.

 

[mean mr.mustard]

See if you can get him to say "driving" instead of "traveling" and it's all over.

 

[armedoldhippy]

I don't know what Heavens Gate People think

they DON'T think, as they all died waiting for the spaceship following the comet to pick them up to be delivered to THEIR "utopia".

I'd like to know what YOU think about a social contract.

living in a society implies consent to their social contract. you don't have to sign up for it. if you do not want to be a member of that society, you fucking move to one you might prefer. (assuming such a place even exists on this plane of reality, LOL!) they are not going to change the rules because a minority don't like everything that their taxes go towards. they don't now, they never have, and they aren't going to...

 

[armedoldhippy]

See if you can get him to say "driving" instead of "traveling" and it's all over.

 

[nepalnt21]

If you do think a "social contract" exists could you

ok well it's been probably almost 20 years since i was taking that type of class in college, but i guess i look at it like how money is treated... currencies with practical value like gold aside, we simply agree money is not toilet paper. but there's no going "i am using my money today and i declare it has value", we just live our lives and use money (iffin we have it).

the idea of a stateless society is so foreign to me, i was hoping you would expound on the ideal setup and maybe elaborate on some ideas for you know... feasible peaceful transitions to such a place.

i said "utopia" to simply mean your ideal society +/-

 

[shiva82]

ok well it's been probably almost 20 years since i was taking that type of class in college, but i guess i look at it like how money is treated... currencies with practical value like gold aside, we simply agree money is not toilet paper. but there's no going "i am using my money today and i declare it has value", we just live our lives and use money (iffin we have it).

the idea of a stateless society is so foreign to me, i was hoping you would expound on the ideal setup and maybe elaborate on some ideas for you know... feasible peaceful transitions to such a place.

i said "utopia" to simply mean your ideal society +/-

paper debt notes is not money . that is fiat currency

 

[nepalnt21]

ok get pedantic and semantic and all that, but also thanks for illuminating my point. as pointless as my point is.

 

[Captain Red Eye]

See if you can get him to say "driving" instead of "traveling" and it's all over.

I'd like to hear if you think there is a social contract ? Yes? No?

 

[Captain Red Eye]

we simply agree money is not toilet paper. but there's no going "i am using my money today and i declare it has value", we just live our lives and use money (iffin we have it).

Were you referring to Federal Reserve debt notes when you referenced money?

 

[Captain Red Eye]

they DON'T think, as they all died waiting for the spaceship following the comet to pick them up to be delivered to THEIR "utopia".

I DO think. I'm not waiting for a spaceship, although seeing one might be cool. Hopefully any spaceship has better cooling system parts than your truck.

Don't have a utopia either, just have ideas to maximize peaceful self-ownership and minimize unwanted intrusion in each peaceful individuals respective lives.

living in a society implies consent to their social contract. you don't have to sign up for it. if you do not want to be a member of that society, you fucking move to one you might prefer

Do you consider churches and religions historically to be part of American society?

If a person is Catholic and his neighbor is Baptist, should one of those people leave the neighborhood or region?

If there are more Baptists in the area should they assume the Catholic by his mere presence consents to forego his chosen religion and by his mere presence in a heavy Baptist area it should be assumed that person is going to have to abide by Baptists rules and stop being a Catholic ?

 

[Captain Red Eye]

ok get pedantic and semantic and all that, but also thanks for illuminating my point. as pointless as my point is.

I'm unclear.

You do or do not think there is such a thing as a social contract as I described in the opening post?

 

[armedoldhippy]

minimize unwanted intrusion in each peaceful individuals respective lives.

LOL, good luck with THAT shit...

If a person is Catholic and his neighbor is Baptist, should one of those people leave the neighborhood or region?

you just don't go to their church. a church has ZERO control over what the people living in that area do (or even those that attend that church). have you lost what little common sense you once had? good lord...

 

[nepalnt21]

I'm unclear.

You do or do not think there is such a thing as a social contract as I described in the opening post?

does money exist?

does math exist?

do the words "time travel" exist?

seems social contract only "exists" as long as we agree it does, like money (fiat currency, for the pedantic, yes 'fed' dollas)

 

[buzzmobile]

A contract requires two parties; it is not a unilateral instrument. Furthermore, it requires a meeting of the minds (effectively, both parties understand what they're agreeing to), clear terms, actual agreement, and exchange of considerations (you don't need a contract to give a gift).