DJ Short's F13 X Ace Panama - Mutants & More Micro-Sized

[Seismic]

The lemon one sounds great 3d, I got a f13 that is starting to take on that exact smell. It will be nice to see how potent it is for ya Take care.

 

[3dDream]

La Buena Hierba - thanks buddy!

THE PABLOS - Thanks. The final product was definitely not what I had planned that's for sure. Happy hunting w/ your grows!

Seismic - Nice to see you. smoke report on the mutant:

The 1/70 long leaf cannot be cloned... I took the cuts too late. The mom is a pain, she normally takes 3-4 weeks to root. My only hope is a reveg and I don't have a great track record. I manually seeded her and other plants with a mostly mutant (now growing normally) f13 x pan male. She did not make any seeds, the rest did. I did only touch one shoot. I am worried this might be a rare treat. The jar is on lockdown.

She's been in the jar for a week or so and no longer smells (farewell starburst), she's got a light vic's vapo thing going on. In the vape shes very smooth and menthol-floral-lemon. She's really down the middle f13/panama in flavor. I would say that the panama mom (no relation) I have has a better flavor. The flowers are leaf, there's really no bud. It reminds me of a mutant sensi star I had, she was very short and very indica. The high is a bit more clear than the panama, and more racy than f13. The duration is nice at 1:30-2hrs. It's a two parter, the first hour is a bit electricly glazed and then give you a break and turns very comfortable. There is a visual choppy-cartoon color thing going on, the mom does that too. I've had better smokes, but they aren't done as fast as her.

I have two more from this cross to jar up and smoke.

(I wrote the above high on the aforementioned smoke... I hope it makes sense tomorrow)

Peace.

 

[dubi]

She's been in the jar for a week or so and no longer smells (farewell starburst), she's got a light vic's vapo thing going on. In the vape shes very smooth and menthol-floral-lemon. She's really down the middle f13/panama in flavor. I would say that the panama mom (no relation) I have has a better flavor. The flowers are leaf, there's really no bud. It reminds me of a mutant sensi star I had, she was very short and very indica. The high is a bit more clear than the panama, and more racy than f13. The duration is nice at 1:30-2hrs. It's a two parter, the first hour is a bit electricly glazed and then give you a break and turns very comfortable. There is a visual choppy-cartoon color thing going on, the mom does that too. I've had better smokes, but they aren't done as fast as her.

I have two more from this cross to jar up and smoke.

(I wrote the above high on the aforementioned smoke... I hope it makes sense tomorrow)

Peace.

Hello 3dDream,

Sounds like an interesting smoke report, thanks for share it, hope you enjoy it for summer time!

I honestly believe there's huge potential crossing our sativas with dj shorts blue indicas. Sorry to hear you lost the clones from the mutant mother, hopefully she will reveg correctly. Best wishes. dubi

 

[Highlighter]

I honestly believe there's huge potential crossing our sativas with dj shorts blue indicas.

Like 3dDream, using DJ's most sativa-expressed strain, F13, w/ various ACE stock, is a dream match-up for me!
Hope to do some combos this winter.

Great cross 3dDream! Bet w/ a proper cure, this will improve all the more!

Best, HL

 

[3dDream]

Hi dubi!! I am enjoying it for sure. I am growing my second panama cross now. I like what panama father adds: plants can grow very fast, but don't get too stretchy. As far as flavor there is lemon/floral part to the taste in each of the kids so far.

Highlighter- this was a fun thing to do. The mutant in a jar is getting nicer. The sweetness seems to be getting stronger. I can taste the panama more than f13. I will be on the lookout for your thread!!!!


The mutant started to reveg. She got really dark green (again). She lost lots of color during the 3 week flush. I did notice that the flowers got more plump. I will have to run her a bit longer next time around.

Ok, this prob looks like shit to some, but she is coming back!! See the crazy leaf out the top of a few buds? Now the question is, will she revert back to a normal plant (like the rest of the mutants did in flower) or will she stay mutant?

 

[Aerokush101]

3D, this a wonderful cross. I have never experienced the panama, she must be nice. I will try f13 for the first time in the next week or so (pulling a bud early). Congrats on your overall project, let me know if youstill need that verification smoke report...

LoL.
Ak101

 

[3dDream]

Thanks Areokush101! In a perfect world you would have already smoked a sample w/ me.

Ok... I am putting the cart before the horse, but I don't know what to do w/ this mutant. Should I:

cross her with the male I saved from this run (her brother)? He did show some long leaf but now grows normal.

grow out some f2's from her sisters and find new male? Maybe I could find a long leaf?

grow out some more seeds of the intial cross and find a new long leaf male? This girl was 1/70 the numbers are gonna suck.

try to self her by stressing her?

Any guesses? Keep in mind this is a micro project so the numbers wont get very big (and neither will the plants).

 

[Aerokush101]

Thanks Areokush101! In a perfect world you would have already smoked a sample w/ me.

Ok... I am putting the cart before the horse, but I don't know what to do w/ this mutant. Should I:

cross her with the male I saved from this run (her brother)? He did show some long leaf but now grows normal.

grow out some f2's from her sisters and find new male? Maybe I could find a long leaf?

grow out some more seeds of the intial cross and find a new long leaf male? This girl was 1/70 the numbers are gonna suck.

try to self her by stressing her?

Any guesses? Keep in mind this is a micro project so the numbers wont get very big (and neither will the plants).

Is this multiple choice? I say (D). All Of The Above

I did some research on CS on here, it's fairly easy and materials are accessible. You might want to try that method, then continue further breeding projects...

 

[Highlighter]

Seeing running #'s is a pita, I'd just use the brother. The genes are there.

 

[dubi]

Thanks Areokush101! In a perfect world you would have already smoked a sample w/ me.

Ok... I am putting the cart before the horse, but I don't know what to do w/ this mutant. Should I:

cross her with the male I saved from this run (her brother)? He did show some long leaf but now grows normal.

grow out some f2's from her sisters and find new male? Maybe I could find a long leaf?

grow out some more seeds of the intial cross and find a new long leaf male? This girl was 1/70 the numbers are gonna suck.

try to self her by stressing her?

Any guesses? Keep in mind this is a micro project so the numbers wont get very big (and neither will the plants).

Hello 3dDream,

Im glad to see the mutant mother is revegging For a better revegging process, cut all the flowers and leave only a few branches showing best vegging reaction.

The mutant long leaf trait seems to be quite recessive, if stabilizing the mutant leaf trait is the main goal, then i'd try to self the mutant mother by STS. This would be best the way to produce a new generation with higher mutant rates.

Being so recessive trait, the f2 route would be difficult to achieve directly, at least playing with low numbers of plants. You would need to grow hundreds of F2 plants to find suitable females and males to work with.

Maybe selfing the original mutant mother, then look a firm mutant S1 female (at this point the mutant trait will be quite more fixed) and finally pollinate S1 selected offspring by a mutant F1 or F2 standard mutant male. Then you'll have a standard generation to select new males to inbred with the S1 mutant line.

 

[3dDream]

Thanks dubi! I looked into STS and can't seem to find a safe/reliable source, plus the chemicals sound a bit dangerous for what I consider an easy hobbie. STS is logically the best idea, but I am gonna have to try a bit of crossing. I do have one thing going for me: the trait can be found in seedlings. I can pan through them pretty quick. I think if the trait can show in better than 10/100 I'll keep going. Maybe some back to the mom and also try moving forward. I am still assuming lots, the mom still need to show that she can get knocked up. DJ says that mutants can be sterile. I mean EVERYTHING got seeded this grow but the mutant.

On the bright side of things the mutant appears to be growing mutant. I was worried about her reverting to a normal plant (like every other mutant I have seen). She is revegging sloooow. I think I will get her out of the cup.

 

[el gordo]

DJ says that mutants can be sterile. I mean EVERYTHING got seeded this grow but the mutant.

then if there's industrial or wild hemp near where you live, you have a very nice guerrilla individual that can grow seedless camouflated between the hemp...just what i'd do...

 

[dubi]

Thanks dubi! I looked into STS and can't seem to find a safe/reliable source, plus the chemicals sound a bit dangerous for what I consider an easy hobbie. STS is logically the best idea, but I am gonna have to try a bit of crossing. I do have one thing going for me: the trait can be found in seedlings. I can pan through them pretty quick. I think if the trait can show in better than 10/100 I'll keep going. Maybe some back to the mom and also try moving forward. I am still assuming lots, the mom still need to show that she can get knocked up. DJ says that mutants can be sterile. I mean EVERYTHING got seeded this grow but the mutant.

On the bright side of things the mutant appears to be growing mutant. I was worried about her reverting to a normal plant (like every other mutant I have seen). She is revegging sloooow. I think I will get her out of the cup.

Good morning,

Mutants usually grow slower than healthy 'normal' plants. Im glad to see she's revegging correctly keeping the mutant traits. As 'el gordo' said, i'd use her for guerrrila growing in the forest, should be an easy one to hide between the green.

STS is a toxic substance and sometimes is not easy to find it, it must be a fresh product because it losts properties in a few weeks. Hope you find the way produce a high % of mutant in seedform, will try to help in all we can.
Best wishes.

 

[3dDream]

el gordo - I am gonna try to run her outside.

dubi - It is always a pleasure to hear from you.

Ok... a short update: The mom is still revegging and I am also happy to see the mutant texture return. She lost it on some of the early reveg leaves. I also noticed the male is sharing some traits. I cut a top on the male and shot a side by side with his sister. Remember this plant grew mutant and changed "normal" in flower. He is similar, but he is missing the dark and splotchy coloration and the long thin leaves. So what does this mean? Are the long finger and dark color traits tied together? It also appears that the serrate and scattered veins can be on a "normal" leaf shape. I wish I knew more about genetics.

 

[3dDream]

Oh and a bit of science. (btw I am just a cartoon scientist) I just learned about how the serrate can show the type of environment a leaf is from.

Since plants are stationary they must respond developmentally, and ultimately evolutionarily,
to their environment. As a result, it's not surprising that leaf morphology (shape) has been shown
to be related to climate. For example, some the following correlations have been reported
(Wiemann et al, 1998): (a) leaf length is directly related to the mean annual temperature (MAT),
(b) leaf area is directly correlated to both MAT and mean annual precipitation (MAP); and (c)
leaf width is directly correlated with MAP. Thus, leaves are longer and larger in climates with
warmer temperatures and higher rainfall.
Another interesting observation that was first reported more than 100 year ago is that woody
deciduous plants having leaves with toothed margins (termed serrate) predominate in
temperate climates while species with smooth (termed entire) leaf margins predominate in frigid
(arctic) and tropical climates. This relationship has been used to derive a mathematical model
for predicting climate from leaf margins. This has been particularly useful in determining MAT in
the geological past by analyzing the leaf margins of fossil plants.
It is not clear why there should be such a strong correlation between leaf margin and
temperature. It is suggested that teeth may help to increase sap flow in plants which may be a
benefit in temperate environments.

And an excellent bit from pbs:

ROBERT SPICER: When I find a fossil leaf, it tells me something, it's like a messenger from the past.

NARRATOR: He made his first trip to the Colville River in 1976.

ROBERT SPICER: It was known that there was a rich flora there, but what I didn't realize was just quite how abundant it was. So we'd land and run over to the outcrop and start hammering away, and there were the leaves.

NARRATOR: Since then, Spicer has amassed one of the world's most impressive collections of arctic botanical fossils from the Late Cretaceous.

ROBERT SPICER: This collection here is fairly typical of the kind of fossils we find throughout the Late Cretaceous of the North Slope. Now, what we have here is a 90-million-year-old cycad.

NARRATOR: Cycads are tropical and indicate warm conditions.

ROBERT SPICER: This one here, this is a conifer.

NARRATOR: Conifer trees are found in a variety of climates. Measuring up to 30 feet tall, they were common on the North Slope.

ROBERT SPICER: This is a fern. These are the sorts of things that your knees would brush past as you walked through the Cretaceous forest. This, here, is quite unusual. It's a leaf which has got a smooth edge to it, it hasn't got any teeth. And this is typical of the kinds of leaves that we tend to find in warm environments today.

NARRATOR: As his collection grew, Spicer had a hunch that he could use these leaves to deduce the temperature of the arctic, 70 million years ago.

It was an idea based on a simple observation that allowed him to decode the secret language of leaves. In hot tropical climates, the edges of leaves are smooth, but in colder climates, they tend to have serrated edges.

ROBERT SPICER: Well, when we look at leaves such as these, you can see that the edges of the leaf have got teeth on them, and it's very jagged. And, in fact, if you look at any of the tree species around here, in this relatively cool climate in the U.K., you'd be very hard-pressed to find a significant number of leaves that have got smooth edges to the leaves.

NARRATOR: Spicer believes that these serrations evolved to help plants circulate water and nutrients. In hot climates, moisture evaporates from leaves, causing water to rise up through the roots. But if the temperature drops, evaporation and circulation ceases.

ROBERT SPICER: Now, in those situations, the plant can't evaporate water from the leaf, so it can't suck water out from the ground. And, of course, the plant needs the fluid going through the plant body to move nutrients.

NARRATOR: But the serrations in leaves growing in cool climates solve that problem because at the tip of each tooth is a small gland that aids circulation.

ROBERT SPICER: So in a cool environment, the plant actually pumps water out through the teeth.

NARRATOR: The real breakthrough came when Spicer realized that he might be able to pinpoint the temperature of the Late Cretaceous using his fossils.

ROBERT SPICER: It's the proportion of tooth leaves and non-tooth leaves that we see in a particular place, living today or in a fossil assemblage, that gives us an idea of the relative warmth, the average annual temperature during the year.

NARRATOR: He and his team spent years comparing leaf shapes to climate data in more than 170 locations around the world. It was a massive undertaking. But in the end, he was able to create a statistical model that ties leaf-tooth patterns to temperature.

ROBERT SPICER: We can tell what the average annual temperature was, at a given place, to within plus or minus one or two degrees Celsius, which is, when you actually look at it in detail...is about as precise as many modern day meteorological observations are.

NARRATOR: When Spicer examined his fossil collection, he discovered a match between those ancient arctic leaves and leaves found today in Southern Alaska, a temperate climate, very different from the barren tundra today. The model indicated that the average annual temperature on the North Slope was about 42-degrees Fahrenheit, 30 degrees warmer than it is there today. But that number is deceptive because at high latitude, the yearly highs and lows are far apart.

So, while the dinosaurs would have enjoyed summer temperatures in the 70s, winters were likely cold enough to produce snow and even ice.

On the Colville, summer temperatures are now nearly 100 degrees above the frigid lows of late March. The dinosaur mine has been sealed for five months. Now it's time to find out if there's anything inside.

 

[3dDream]

I am still trying to figure out of the above applies to the mutant. One more copy paste:

Toothed leaves appear to be advantageous to woody plants in wetlands regardless of plant form. The exact physiology explaining the advantage to toothed leaves in wet or cool environments is unknown, and explanations for the presence of teeth range from promotion of water conductance and reduction of leaf temperature (32) to rapid expansion of the leaf as it unfurls (33). Most studies agree that teeth draw water through a leaf more quickly than do leaves with entire margins (e.g., refs. 32 and 34). This may be of benefit in extremely wet environments, where the leaf's compromise of higher water loss for more rapid early growth is ameliorated by abundant water supplies.

 

[3dDream]

While I am waiting for a re-veg I popped some seeds. I plopped 42 f13 x panama and 14 f13 x (f13 x panama). Maybe I'll see another long leaf? I am hoping the 14 backcross plants show something since the male had the long leaf trait (even though it didn't stick).

 

[four seasons]

Great thread
My f13 male from last fall was totally sterial. The damndest thing
He sure was resinated on the stamens but to my disapointment not a drop of pollen.

 

[3dDream]

four seasons - Beautiful plant. Great color. It is too bad about about him being a dud. Yeah f13 is a little lacking in the male fertility dept. There are many reports of this in the DJ forum. I too had a male that would not drop. I was able to crush the flowers and get pollen, but there was very little. Although I grow little. Panama seems to have fixed the fertility problem. I had zero issues making seeds with the f1 plants and I used a partial mutant.

 

[charlie garcia]

Sometimes they drop pollen but so little, or so small and weak as well. Other times flowers dont open well but contain and retain some pollen inside. As you did 3Dream such trick maybe can help, cutting off some flower buds and drying them, then crush and blow around over female flowers to capture any possible pollen left inside male flowers. Who knows you need just a very few viable grains.
best luck