DIY Nutrients formulations, recipes, chemistry etc.

[Carboy]

Old school was that hydro was strictly inorganic mineral nutrition - new school theory based on research has shown that organics in combination with inorganics enhances growth in hydro systems.

Would you point me in the right direction, so I could educate myself on this?

 

[BasementBreeder]

Is that K as K20? That's a lot of extra K. What dilution rate is it. I'll work out the ppm of K you're adding with the DM. It sounds as if they have fulvic in the formula which btw I want you to use during both grow and bloom with the DIY stuff (fulvic chelates and greatly aids the uptake of Si) but not the shitty fulvics manufacturers use. High quality fulvic is yellow not brown. Humic acid is dark brown to black and is pointless in hydro as the molecule size is too large for uptake and doesn't chelate nearly as well as good fulvic. Humic is good for creating biomass. It's yet another laugh that DM have added a crappy fulvic/humic product directly to Si as Si is highly alkaline which means low pH which means that the fulvic has precipitated and floated and needs to be shaken into solution because the low pH of Si has messed with fulvic/humic (christ these boys don't understand the first thing about chemistry - guess thats what happens when uneducated bikies start playing with chemistry) I'd also advise that you find trichoderma harzianum SPP and bacillus subtillus (as dry spores - none of this liquid crap where microbes may or may not be present and they probably don't autoclave which means perhaps random nasty bios in the product). We'll create a bio tea formula for you so you can have an explosive and diodiverse microbe environment in the coco (no sterilizing agents) You can test fulvic content in a product by lowering the pH to 1 - 1.5 and see what floats to the top and/or precipitates (thats humic which is shite in hydro but great in soil - give it a go sometime with a fulvic hydro product and see what happens. You'll find its mostly humic). You basically want to use an 8% fulvic solution/liquid at 30ml/L then dilute this in solution at 2 - 2.5ml/L to achieve optimum ppm. Its cheap as hell to make a good fulvic product but extremely hard to find a good yellow to yellow brown fulvic powder.... Just remember the closer to yellow the fulvic acid powder the better the quality. Please don't use any DM crap with my stuff. I want to give you an optimized program without the randoms and as I formulate for you I will work out the ppm of every element to ensure that we know exactly what we are adding and I'll then formulate to the ppm with this in mind. BTW. Si is as cheap as hell to make also!

Next question. Do you run an optimized environment. What temp, what humidity, what pH, what EC etc? Keep a track record and tell me whats going on. Environment is king.

Can you elaborate on this? What is the ppm we're shooting for?

 

[funkymonkey]

I just happen to have a couple of Med Man (Whte Rhino) cuts sat here, just rooted and potted out, I'll use them for this trial I think, not sure of the pheno, I gave a pack of med man to a friend who was starting up, he grew some, kept two females, gave me cuts of one, I'll get the other one off him next visit.

 

[funkymonkey]

Well, on the back of the silica bottle that is labelled as 0-0-2 it says it's 2.0% soluble potash as k20 and 0.041% Manganese (0.005% chelated manganese), The instructions for application:

1. Add Silica at the rate of 10ml per 20 litres/5.3 gallons of nutrient solution
2. Check & adjuct PH if required (5.3 to 5.8)

On the back of the bottle labelled 0-0-10 it says this:

Silicon 6.6%, Potassium 10%, Carbon 0.002% and Manganese 0.041%.

Instructions:
First 2 weeks (all systems). Add Silica @0.5ml per 2 litres of nutrient solution. Check & adjust PH.
Run To Waste Systems. Add Silica @ 1ml per 2 litres of nutrient solution. Check & adjust PH.
Recirculation Systems. Add Silica @ 1ml per 3 litres of nutrient solution. Replenish every 2 weeks or at tank change. Check & adjust PH after each addition.

And on the bottle labelled 0-0-16 it says exactly the same as the 0-0-10 bottles. I have one bottle of 0-0-2, two of 0-0-10 and one of 0-0-16, confusing.

 

[funkymonkey]

Very good value for money at 4.25ukp a litre. I always used Barricade as it's concentration made it the cheapest, then it was withdrawn, I switched to the Dutchmaster only because the hydro store had it so cheap. I have been using it at a capful (approx 5ml) in 5 litres of water, not seen any issues from this usage rate, I stop using it 4-5 weeks before harvest as I think using silicon right up until flush can make buds harder to burn, I've seen a lot of commercial that had been fed so much silica it wouldn't stay lit.

I'm confused if the contents of my four bottles are the same, it looks like the 0-0-10 and 0-0-16 are the same and the 0-0-2 is less concentrated, but how much less is confusing. The 0-0-2 says 2% potash whereas the 0-0-10 says 6.6%, that suggests the former is a third the strength of the latter, however the app rates suggest otherwise, the 0-0-2 is 0.5ml per litre and the 0-0-10 is 0.25ml per litre first 2 weeks, 0.5ml per litre after that in rtw systems, that suggests the same concentration.

Any ideas to aid my confusion?

Also, you mentioned a DIY way of making liquid silica, care to share? While I have 4 litres of silica to use up, it would be good to know how to make it.

 

[funkymonkey]

I've never found any silicate products outside what's in the hydro store. I can get high concentration pot sil on ebay but it's not cheap, 12.99 a litre, I think it's about 40%. 70% sodium silicate is 12.99 a litre too.

It's so annoying how shady and scattergun the hydro nute companies are, makes it so much harder to actually work out a feeding regime with any accuracy. That is just as annoying as their rip-off prices.

I'm now totally unsire of how much of this DM Silica I should be using, perhaps I should stick with the 1ml per litre I have been using?

 

[funkymonkey]

The seed industry is about as reliable as the hydro industry. Espeically given that my Rhino originally was accessed about 9 years ago. They could be completely different to mine so if you're going to boost K then take it easy.

My Rhino came from one of the yellow Mr Nice packets so will be 5-6 years old stock. The Rhino parents have never changed so if yours is from Mr Nice (or GHS prior to 99) then we have the same strain, we hay not have the same pheno of course.

 

[BasementBreeder]

I believe genetics plays an important role in optimum ppm targets. I've pointed out before that White Rhino chews up the K while other strains I work with like less. What I'm saying re the K Si is that lets say its 16% K as K20 that makes it 13.28% K as elemental K = 132800ppm of K. Dilute this at - no response so I'll take a guess and say 2ml/L = 265.6ppm (132.8ppm at 1ml/L) of K in solution. So in early grow that's a lot of K - whereas in bloom it would likely prove beneficial (still a lot of K if not factored in). It just gets me how growers are throwing in so many randoms without even considering it nor in many cases even realising it. My own views at this point and plant physiology isn't my area of science (I just enjoy growing and have done a fair amount of research) is 3 - 1- 2 for grow (or thereabouts) and 3- 1.1- 4 to 5 in bloom. It's way more complex however as you really need about 5 different feed regimes during the entire crop cycle (as is done with far less price per kilo plants such as tomatoes) and again genetics determines some factors. I've found with White Rhino (my personal favourite along with NL5 x Haze and Sweet Skunk) that she sucks the K and you're hitting her hard with approx 3- 1- 6 during about 2 weeks of the cycle. What I'd like to see is other growers doing their own research into this and I'm sure we'd come up with a range of numbers differing for various genetics. For instance Sweet Skunk requires far less NPK than the Rhino and so on. MR

Thanks for the answer but I suppose I was a little ambiguous. I meant how much fulvic do we want to add?

 

[Carboy]

If you can find a concentrate from an Ag supplier that is listed accurately I can tell you how to dilute it accordingly.

0-0-32 Potassium Silicate powder.
How many grams/ gal. for 50ppm silicate? How much K does that add? I believe when someone says 3-1-4 (or whatever the ratio they have) that N is considered 100 ppm. With our addition, how would that ratio change?
Appreciate the help and explanation. CB

 

[YosemiteSam]

3-1-4 is just the ratio. I typically run N anywhere from 120-150 ppm depending on what I think the plants need at the time. The ratio stays the same, i.e. when I feed more N I also feed more P and K and Ca, Mg, etc.

Having said that I am considering upping the K the further I get into flower. On top of that I am considering feeding Ksulfate along with some Ca and Mg instead of doing a normal flush. My thinking being that will keep the sugar content of the plant from dropping off and combined with the minerals may give me a somewhat more complex taste in my finished product.

Or it may be a total fuckup It is good to keep some mystery in life.

 

[funkymonkey]

I've been having similar thoughts about giving K and sulphur during the flush but I was thinking of using molasses for K and sulphur with some seaweed for more K, my theory being the K would give more resin and the sulpur would enhance taste.

I'm going to do a side-by-side experiment with flushing soon, one plant plain water the other molasses and seaweed.

 

[tester]

0-0-32 Potassium Silicate powder.
How many grams/ gal. for 50ppm silicate? How much K does that add? I believe when someone says 3-1-4 (or whatever the ratio they have) that N is considered 100 ppm. With our addition, how would that ratio change?
Appreciate the help and explanation. CB

It depends on :
- the product - even with the same K content the amount of Si can differ. Have you got a link?
- what do you mean by "silicate"? - Si (=silicon), SiO2, SiO3 or K2SiO3 ...

This is a similar product :Agsil16h

• 32.4% K2O (= 26,89% K )
• 52.8% SiO2 (= 24,68% Si )

For 50ppm Si
0,77g/gal that also gives 54,7 K

For 50ppm SiO2 (= 23,5 Si)
0,36g/gal that also gives 25,6 K

 

[Carboy]

- the product -

Agsil16h

• 32.4% K2O (= 26,89% K )
• 52.8% SiO2 (= 24,68% Si )

For 50ppm Si
0,77g/gal that also gives 54,7 K

For 50ppm SiO2 (= 23,5 Si)
0,36g/gal that also gives 25,6 K

That's the one. thanks -- CB

 

[YosemiteSam]

Never fed over 40 ppm

Never fed over 40 ppm



Just for fun here is an Arcata cut Trainwreck 1.5 weeks into flower. It has never been fed more than 40 ppm P. It is a notoriously stretchy plant. I am very happy with how it is shaping up on this low P feed...looks like it might just stack some buds nicely this time

 

[funkymonkey]

Interesting, that looks pretty compact for how TW grows, looks like you might have stumbled on something there. Wonder if you'll need to up the ppms of P as she gets going with the floral production?

 

[YosemiteSam]

I prefer to think I did not stumble onto anything, I have spent a whole lot of hours doing research.

I can tell you from experience that plants will do quite well never going over 40 ppm P. The question worth asking is will it do better on a little higher amount once I get past stretch. I plan to up the P to 50 ppm this grow and see what I see.

I have friends that I respect quite a bit who have found 60 ppm to be the number for them. At any rate I like 40 for veg and I am pretty sure no one needs to ever go above 60.

K, on the other hand, well...once I find the P level I like then it will be pushing the K levels a little a grow to find out where that ceiling really is.

I will say this. I find 3-1-4 to be a better veg formula than 3-1-2. Run plants side by side on these formulas and measure brix levels with a refractometer....the 3-1-4 will kick ass. And that was in Sunshine Just Coir straight out the bag...no washing or preloading done by me.

Also, to be totally honest, I have a Sour D next to the TW, fed the same...and stretched out like a motherfucker...so maybe I have not quite stumbled onto the perfect solution just yet

 

[funkymonkey]

I meant no offense by the use of 'stumbled upon' just a phrase of speech, good to hear you have arrived at this experiment via a path of research and prior experimentation.

I've never managed to stop SD stretching like a mofo to be honest, lots of stem pinching helps but she will always reach for the skies in my experience.

Please keep us updated on how this goes, you're gathering some useful info. I'm keen to see how far you can push the K and if the K levels really do change bud size a lot.

 

[YosemiteSam]

I was just fuckin with you funky...i knew you didn't mean anything bad.

 

[funkymonkey]

No problem man, TW is a personal fave of mine but I hate the way it grows with the weak floppy stems and mad stretch so I'm doubly interested in your experiment.

 

[tester]

YosemiteSam: Do you take the P content of pH Down into account ? (if you used any pH Down Bloom or phosphoric acid)
Just asking because growers usually forget about it even though it can be significant.

40 ppm P sounds right to me too, 50 is the max I've seen in other cultures (but it also depends on the growing method)