Defoliation: Hi-Yield Technique?

[k33ftr33z]

so defoliation wont work on a plant thats in the middle of flowering?

It won't create the bush I have described but if you have any lower buds that are blanching it will help them toughen up. Maybe you already have a substantial bush like a previous poster. Then I would say yes, you can benefit from it.

The confusion arises with the timing. If you are SOGGING and just placed your 6" tall plants into flower and decided to run with this method suddenly, that would be ill-advised. Let them leaf out.

This is not something designed to "work" That assumes some sudden or conclusive change-around of the progress or process.

I must stress that Leafing Out is a process also. It is as important as the deleafing. It is during the Releafing or Leafing Out process that you get a dramatic increase in overall bud setting.

 

[OrganicMonkey]

Just gotta keep the EC under control when doing this, the pH also has to be zeroed. Trimming lowers the plants needs for high dissolved solids, a higher EC. I like to trim the inside of topped plants, open up the inside of the bush so all of those sites get developed. I think a lot has to do with hormone response by the light in varying areas of the plant.

The biggest risk is having an EC that is to high for a plant then trimming, the EC is just that much higher after a trim than the plants needs for a high EC.

 

[k33ftr33z]

Cool, I get 1.37 g / W (3lbs per 1000W) without defoliating, and only growing 4 plants per 1 kW light.

I use supercropping, LST and some limited defoliation well into flowering. I mainly tuck the fan leaves.

For me, the main advantage I can see is if it helps with the flush. I use soil at the rate of 50 gal per plant (I reuse it indefinitely), so I never flush water through the soil at all, just reduce nutes so they are at a low level before harvest. Near harvest, the plant takes in sugars from the fan leaves and they turn yellow and start dying. At that point if you start defoliating I can see how the flush would go faster.

Sounds dialed. Only thing I do without is the soil. Water only. Flows through hoses instead of needing to be lugged in a wheelbarrow. Keep up the good work. I'm using 2x600 + 1x 400 for 6 girls.

How much space are you allowing for those 4.

 

[Dorje113]

Sounds dialed. Only thing I do without is the soil. Water only. Flows through hoses instead of needing to be lugged in a wheelbarrow. Keep up the good work. I'm using 2x600 + 1x 400 for 6 girls.

How much space are you allowing for those 4.

Right now, 20-25 sq ft depending on the system... but I'm thinking 30 is going to be even better. We'll see in a couple months, but I think it'll exceed the 3 lb / light mark.

I also use a light mover, and I'm going to try the Sunlight Supply hot spot diffuser as well... I tried it in a small system in a xxxl 8" hood without a light mover and the results are impressive. Even with a light mover, the plant reacts differently under the hot spot area, with the diffuser I hope to eliminate that.

Soil is easy, I never replace it. It gets better over time if you treat it right...

Some pics of last time, 1st is blueberry, 2nd is ISS, which is a very unruly, fast growing plant!

 

[TexasToker]

That is a big ol' nug!

 

[k33ftr33z]

Right now, 20-25 sq ft depending on the system... but I'm thinking 30 is going to be even better. We'll see in a couple months, but I think it'll exceed the 3 lb / light mark.

I also use a light mover, and I'm going to try the Sunlight Supply hot spot diffuser as well... I tried it in a small system in a xxxl 8" hood without a light mover and the results are impressive. Even with a light mover, the plant reacts differently under the hot spot area, with the diffuser I hope to eliminate that.

Soil is easy, I never replace it. It gets better over time if you treat it right...

Some pics of last time, 1st is blueberry, 2nd is ISS, which is a very unruly, fast growing plant!

What's that reflective panel stuff you have there. Looks interesting. I like the unruly types. Seem to benefit most from this treatment. The Jack and Diesel I have right now are wild things too.

 

[Dorje113]

That is a big ol' nug!

Thanks, I hired a midget for the photo to make it look bigger.















j/k, no midget, she's 5'6" or so...

 

[Dorje113]

What's that reflective panel stuff you have there. Looks interesting. I like the unruly types. Seem to benefit most from this treatment. The Jack and Diesel I have right now are wild things too.

The reflective stuff is reflectix insulation, 2 layers of alum. foil with 2 layers of bubble wrap between the alum.

I used to coat the entire interior surface of grow rooms with the stuff to spread out heat absorption into the rest of the house and defeat IR monitors, but now I just use Mylar, since the scene in CO has become legal.

I have a diesel plant that is pretty awesome. Very hardy, and uses tons of nutrients. She's in a 20 gal pot with new ffof blend and sucked the nitrogen dry a few days after hitting 12/12. Can't wait to see the flowers. I don't know if she's a Rez or Soma Diesel....

 

[subgen1us]

First off I'm all for experimentation and would love to see side by side results.

That being said, plants keep a certain internal pressure regulated by transpiration.

When you remove the leaves it lowers the amount of water the plant can intake(because it no longer has as many pores to exhale from).

Since less water is being used, less nutrients are being taken in.

Overall, lowering the plants efficiency.

Light drives photosynthesis so at night it has to synthesize its energy.

This comes from its food reserves. Removing leaves removes chlorophyll which acts as food reserves as well as solar panels.

I also believe the leaves serve by causing a shadow to be cast over certain but sites.

They stretch to pass the leave then they are up in full light.

I'd rather remove lower buds to cause the upper, more light soaked budsites more light.

Like when you remove all the sites on a pumpkin vine to make a jumbo one.

I'm a firm believer in leaving all its food leaves intact until the plant sucks them dry and they fall off.

 

[GrnMtnGrwr]

ya'll are crazy. it's called tucking. tuck the leaves so they're out of the way of the nugs. very simple. plants use leaves to absorb the light for photosynthesis and move all of those nutrients throughout the plant. I am of the firm belief that leaves should stay on the plant until they are no longer useful to it.

it's like someone saying "hey take those solar panels off of the roof so we can have a skylight to heat this room up" well if you take the solar panels off you're losing a lot of energy from the rest of the house to create a bit of energy in one spot.

when was the last time you saw an outdoor grower or commercial grower plucking leaves to increase yield? afterall that is what those type of growers are after, you'd think a commercial grow would have a team of "defoliators" constantly stripping leaves so the nugs get light.

okay, so your lower nugs don't get light... solution.... strip the lower branches. problem solved. why sacrifice the engine of your colas to possibly beef up a few other nugs?

Except he is reporting consistent gains in yield with the technique... so it would seem the solar panel comparison is flawed.

First off I'm all for experimentation and would love to see side by side results.

That being said, plants keep a certain internal pressure regulated by transpiration.

When you remove the leaves it lowers the amount of water the plant can intake(because it no longer has as many pores to exhale from).

Since less water is being used, less nutrients are being taken in.

Overall, lowering the plants efficiency.

Light drives photosynthesis so at night it has to synthesize its energy.

This comes from its food reserves. Removing leaves removes chlorophyll which acts as food reserves as well as solar panels.

I also believe the leaves serve by causing a shadow to be cast over certain but sites.

They stretch to pass the leave then they are up in full light.

I'd rather remove lower buds to cause the upper, more light soaked budsites more light.

Like when you remove all the sites on a pumpkin vine to make a jumbo one.

I'm a firm believer in leaving all its food leaves intact until the plant sucks them dry and they fall off.

This is a case of beliefs vs experience. I prefer hard evidence over hearsay.

 

[TickleMyBalls]

i don't know I'm still not convinced. I've been watching friends use this method for years, and had long debates with them about it. all of my friends have seen an increase in yield after they stopped defoiliating and started trimming lower branches and adding bloom highly soluable bloom boosters.

pictures can be deceiving. of course it looks like the buds are bigger, theres no leaves on them. when I see people on here like krunchbubble or someone else that pulls ridiculous yields for a living, then maybe I'll believe the merits. but IF this method works, I can't see it being useful for anyone except closet growers with very little light.

 

[Dorje113]

i don't know I'm still not convinced. I've been watching friends use this method for years, and had long debates with them about it. all of my friends have seen an increase in yield after they stopped defoiliating and started trimming lower branches and adding bloom highly soluable bloom boosters.

pictures can be deceiving. of course it looks like the buds are bigger, theres no leaves on them. when I see people on here like krunchbubble or someone else that pulls ridiculous yields for a living, then maybe I'll believe the merits. but IF this method works, I can't see it being useful for anyone except closet growers with very little light.

That's what I thought, but 1g/W (2.2 lbs/1kW) is a respectable yield, and there may be other factors that could increase that number. Many growers struggle to get to 2 lbs/1kW.

The question is, would he get better yields using other training techniques? I'd guess so, but I'm biased because, of course, my way is the best way.

 

[GrnMtnGrwr]

i don't know I'm still not convinced. I've been watching friends use this method for years, and had long debates with them about it. all of my friends have seen an increase in yield after they stopped defoiliating and started trimming lower branches and adding bloom highly soluable bloom boosters.

pictures can be deceiving. of course it looks like the buds are bigger, theres no leaves on them. when I see people on here like krunchbubble or someone else that pulls ridiculous yields for a living, then maybe I'll believe the merits. but IF this method works, I can't see it being useful for anyone except closet growers with very little light.

So can trusting the information, no matter how it is presented, given by a stranger on the internet. If he had given you weight vs weight, would you be more likely to trust him? Pictures are a hell of a lot more valuable than words, and words are all that the anti-defoliation crowd has presented.

Any time any information about a technique that isn't generally accepted is presented, there are plenty of people to come in and say, "Well I've heard this doesn't work. I've read this isn't the way to do it. I don't do it like that and my results are fine." What the fuck is that? Unless you've got some evidence showing it doesn't work, why bother posting?

 

[Greyskull]

but IF this method works, I can't see it being useful for anyone except closet growers with very little light.

it works. dude, IT WORKS. try it on one of your plants... just one. Try it.... instead of bineg a skeptic be experienced!!! then cast your stones...

about 'very little light' thought - its the EXACT opposite of what you are thinking... in order for this technique to be effective you need to have powerful lights... you need all the lumens you can reaching/slamming the bud/leaf sights you have kept... especially since all the other solar panels are gone....

 

[k33ftr33z]

I like to think of the fan leaves being responsible for structural growth and buds just need exposure. This is evidenced by the fact that leaf removal stunts structural growth but in no way affect bud growth except to expose more bud to more light.

Fan leaves serve a crucial role in natural surroundings in that they provide the stretch power to outpace all other annuals in the field. In the controlled grow the needs are different.

As for the poster who referred to commercial growers, does he know all commercial growers? I didn't think so. Commercial growers may likely be working outdoors with no space limitations or indoors also with a hydro tap and no incentive to increase efficiency. The unfortunate thing about the black market nature of the business is that the big growers use whatever method pays. The good profits allow a sometimes wasteful and overkill workstyle.

 

[k33ftr33z]

Consistency

Consistency

One point that needs to made regarding this method is that it assures consistency. I have found in the past that allowing plants to do their own thing makes for a very inconsistent yield. As soon as plants get leafy some inevitably dominate and things get very untidy. If you look at the pics, there is not a bit of wasted space. Nugs everywhere. Apparently comparable yields can be attained just letting things go as evidenced by the earlier poster from CO. Defoliating allows me to manage the plants so that they all enter the bud unit on equal footing and are managed equally throughout their cycle. That assures me a very consistent yield cycle after cycle. Something I cannot replicate with letting plants go their own way in such tight quarters. Apparently many of the naysayers have never experience overcrowding and the crappy snarf from light starved bud sites. How many times have you seen posted where someone vegged a bit too long. Well this is a way for them to manage the mess. How many times have you read a rookie asking if they should remove this leaf or that and the fearful falling over themselves to tell them to never remove leaves. Well I am here to tell them to calm down and remove any leaves they like at will. No harm and these pictures prove it. At the very least these pictures should lay to rest the alarmists who warn to never remove any leaves. It is a valid method and good for managing crowding, disease, pests, airflow, light penetration and maybe get a little more yield, What's not to like about any of that.

 

[TickleMyBalls]

So can trusting the information, no matter how it is presented, given by a stranger on the internet. If he had given you weight vs weight, would you be more likely to trust him? Pictures are a hell of a lot more valuable than words, and words are all that the anti-defoliation crowd has presented.

Any time any information about a technique that isn't generally accepted is presented, there are plenty of people to come in and say, "Well I've heard this doesn't work. I've read this isn't the way to do it. I don't do it like that and my results are fine." What the fuck is that? Unless you've got some evidence showing it doesn't work, why bother posting?

I'm not trusting information on the internet. you neglected to take into account my statement that I've physically seen my friend's grows while they used this technique, then debated it's merits with them, and watched them yield more by just tucking the leaves so the buds get light instead of removing them.

 

[k33ftr33z]

The reflective stuff is reflectix insulation, 2 layers of alum. foil with 2 layers of bubble wrap between the alum.

I used to coat the entire interior surface of grow rooms with the stuff to spread out heat absorption into the rest of the house and defeat IR monitors, but now I just use Mylar, since the scene in CO has become legal.

I have a diesel plant that is pretty awesome. Very hardy, and uses tons of nutrients. She's in a 20 gal pot with new ffof blend and sucked the nitrogen dry a few days after hitting 12/12. Can't wait to see the flowers. I don't know if she's a Rez or Soma Diesel....

I'm surprised you have not had a bout with fungus gnats yet. Did you run your soil through the oven. Those buggers made the thought of ever using soil again impossible. I'm grateful for them only that they drove me to perfect the hydro system I now have which is a clean machine. Never been simpler and negligible material input.

 

[k33ftr33z]

I'm not trusting information on the internet. you neglected to take into account my statement that I've physically seen my friend's grows while they used this technique, then debated it's merits with them, and watched them yield more by just tucking the leaves so the buds get light instead of removing them.

Tucking is legit in some circumstances but if you saw this setup first hand you would see the futility of tucking. My plants are far branchier than most and I'm not removing any of them. As the debate rages, I plucked a shopping bag full this morning, bent and twisted a hundred branches, and packed those fat hangers previously posted for curing.

 

[Dorje113]

I'm surprised you have not had a bout with fungus gnats yet. Did you run your soil through the oven. Those buggers made the thought of ever using soil again impossible. I'm grateful for them only that they drove me to perfect the hydro system I now have which is a clean machine. Never been simpler and negligible material input.

Fungus gnats can be eliminated using nematodes:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nematode

$10 worth covers 2-3000 square feet. They come in a little sponge you squeeze out in water. The nematodes eat the gnat eggs.