kushbanana
Member
its health\vigor\strain of the plant that determines its ability to handle leafing, in no way is it the medium. dirt, soiless, aero, any other hydro whatever doesn't matter, just health\vigor\ and what strain your working with.
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Defoliation: Hi-Yield Technique?
- Thread starter k33ftr33z
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Doesn't sound good
Doesn't sound good
I've seen this myself when using depleted soil. It sounds like you need to add Nitrogen. What medium are you working with? I would shoot it up with a nitrogen rich fert. For soil, I like fish emulsion or a grow formula. For coco, I like a coco compatible thing like Cana A B.
Make sure you let her get healthy for two weeks. I've learned my lesson on putting unhealthy plants into the 12x12 room. I'm finding that the veg stage is the best time to work out any health problems with the plants.
Doesn't sound good
I've seen this myself when using depleted soil. It sounds like you need to add Nitrogen. What medium are you working with? I would shoot it up with a nitrogen rich fert. For soil, I like fish emulsion or a grow formula. For coco, I like a coco compatible thing like Cana A B.
Make sure you let her get healthy for two weeks. I've learned my lesson on putting unhealthy plants into the 12x12 room. I'm finding that the veg stage is the best time to work out any health problems with the plants.
I've seen it when it's really growing fast in veg phase. I heard it was the lag in time it takes for the chlorophyll to form. Apparently, it takes a while for chlorophyll to fully form and turn green. When the plant grows "too fast", the chlorophyll is still forming and the tops looks yellow until it "catches up". It could be a bullshit story, but it didn't bother any of the plants that had it.
Is it hot in there with them? REALLY hot temps can cause lockout...iron is common.
I agree. I especially see it in my veg room after the 4 hour dark period. New shoots grow out in the dark...when the light comes on they look bleached as hell. Next day that growth is dark green.
kushbanana
Member
after 100's of grows I can say sir, you are incorrect. Done tons of side by sides, only reason taste is affected is if plant health is not optimum to begin with, then your adding unnecessary stress, grow healthier plants and try defoliation, you'll be pleasantly surprised how much more the lowers will produce quality nugget to their full potential from not being shaded.
BlueberryLovr
Member
Light exposure is the name of the game, blowin. Has nothing to do with taste.
Marquis de Sod
Member
i have all the same strain of indica. one at about four months had seven nice arms all going up after i topped it at about a month or two.
it wasn't making any buds! just layer upon layer of fan leaf. i stripped all them off, and one is dead now, the others look like crap. they were in bud for over a month for sure. but i read others stripped the fans two weeks before harvesting them.
if i had not stipped them, they would not have produced much of anything at all! i don't under stand why! just ten tons of popcorn buds, maybe due to all the sheilding of the many zillions of fans leafs. the leafs just got smaller and smaller as you trimmed away the larger ones over them.
then i have some, same indica, that i grew in "hempy buckets". just perlite and vermic on GH micro and bloom, 6/9.
they grew alot straighter, stretched alot during veg. didn't even look like the same plant. after about three weeks in bloom, i stripped four of eight. they came back strong. so strong that i did ALL of them! this way i can avoid whatever in the FUCK happened to my others. i had such high hopes for the first ones! they had more bud sites than any other plant i ever grew. i think they could have gotten into the 95F range. i dont know, but i know 100 killed some others i had before that. all my sativas kicked ass but now all i have is this strain of indica called shante devi. i switched over to this 100%, so now after reading the 'defoliation' thread, i have defoliated EVERY plant i have both in veg and bloom.
as i said, they are looking way better now in bloom after 2 months. my other older bigger plants look fucking pathetic.
it wasn't making any buds! just layer upon layer of fan leaf. i stripped all them off, and one is dead now, the others look like crap. they were in bud for over a month for sure. but i read others stripped the fans two weeks before harvesting them.
if i had not stipped them, they would not have produced much of anything at all! i don't under stand why! just ten tons of popcorn buds, maybe due to all the sheilding of the many zillions of fans leafs. the leafs just got smaller and smaller as you trimmed away the larger ones over them.
then i have some, same indica, that i grew in "hempy buckets". just perlite and vermic on GH micro and bloom, 6/9.
they grew alot straighter, stretched alot during veg. didn't even look like the same plant. after about three weeks in bloom, i stripped four of eight. they came back strong. so strong that i did ALL of them! this way i can avoid whatever in the FUCK happened to my others. i had such high hopes for the first ones! they had more bud sites than any other plant i ever grew. i think they could have gotten into the 95F range. i dont know, but i know 100 killed some others i had before that. all my sativas kicked ass but now all i have is this strain of indica called shante devi. i switched over to this 100%, so now after reading the 'defoliation' thread, i have defoliated EVERY plant i have both in veg and bloom.
as i said, they are looking way better now in bloom after 2 months. my other older bigger plants look fucking pathetic.
BlueberryLovr is correct, light exposure matters. If you don't feel like taking leaves off completely, at least cut them in half to allow more light to penetrate the canopy. I do this a lot and it doesn't stress the plant anywhere near full defoliation so I do it to plants in late flower that have not been defoliated in the past:
(notice the flat ends of fan leaves, before that you couldn't see past the first layer of buds)
(notice the flat ends of fan leaves, before that you couldn't see past the first layer of buds)
epicseeds
Member
I have been using fox farm ocean forest. plant has been in 5 gallon smart pot for little over a month. do you think all the nutrients are already depleted? I am starting to think it is.
I just put mixed some earth worm castings in the top few inches of the pots. Tomorrow I plan on putting some mixed spent coffee grounds on the top too.
S
SCROG McDuck
Here is my contribution.... Barnys Farm LSD, from seed < I know, better from clone..
Pic #1 BF-LSD, Day54/Bloom=day6.. 400w CMH from 3rd week of veg...
100w cfl 1st 3 weeks.. will switch to HPS this weekend..
Pic #2 BF-LSD, Day 55/Boom day 7... After...
LSDR (on the right) was DEFed heavy 7 days ago LSDL (LEFT) wasn't...
I do not see any difference in height or structure in either plant....
60 more days and I'll let you know how it produces..
Pic #1 BF-LSD, Day54/Bloom=day6.. 400w CMH from 3rd week of veg...
100w cfl 1st 3 weeks.. will switch to HPS this weekend..
Pic #2 BF-LSD, Day 55/Boom day 7... After...
LSDR (on the right) was DEFed heavy 7 days ago LSDL (LEFT) wasn't...
I do not see any difference in height or structure in either plant....
60 more days and I'll let you know how it produces..
Attachments
Had a few issues with the sattori (very light feeder) so have unplugged it from the dripper,and will hand water from now on.
As for the rest, there doing fine upped the E C to 1.8 and added a little attami bloombastic.
I havent removed any leaf for about 10 days, and im going to leave them for another 7 days at least, as the growth at the moment is quite impressive, i may adopt delta,s stance and leave them till around day 45 and then do a complete strip, as most of the lower buds have now made it to the top of the canopy.
Day 28 of 12/12
Bob
As for the rest, there doing fine upped the E C to 1.8 and added a little attami bloombastic.
I havent removed any leaf for about 10 days, and im going to leave them for another 7 days at least, as the growth at the moment is quite impressive, i may adopt delta,s stance and leave them till around day 45 and then do a complete strip, as most of the lower buds have now made it to the top of the canopy.
Day 28 of 12/12
Bob
this technique kicks ass. i flowered some plants with no veg and romoved leaves all the way through flowering. my pump died on 1 table 6 weeks in, and i had to harvest them early. and i still managed to yeild more than i thought i would. the rest is coming down tomorrow, and it will be with out a doubt my best yeild to date. i'd highly recommend this technique to everyone. thanks for posting it up. i will be using this all the time from now. big up mate.
johnny butt
Member
Works pretty well. Might wanna throw a v-scrog screen in there too to keep the plants from growing into the lights.
I find if I defoliate too much at any one time, the plants noticably slow down for a few days. When I only clip a few here or there throughout the grow as they cover bud sites, they love it and the new growth explodes! Moderation...
Current...
This one is from 5 days or so ago, and I've continued to clip fan leaves, little at a time, each day. It also helps me keep a complete wall of vegetation around the lights to maximize that wonderful photosynthesis all our ladies use for energy...
Previous.... Here's a shot of one side, a little less defoliation this round, and the buds behind the screen definitely showed it! Tiny little wimpy, whispy nugs... The ones up front were primo.
JB
A side note to those following some of my other work, here is a remote nute monitoring setup you may like
https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=189769
https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=189769
k33ftr33z, thank you for the link. i'm very interested in automating and remote controlling/monitoring.
also, i wanted you to know that i have been DF'ing in veg. so far i'm happy with the results. shorter internodes for sure. the plant seems to be developing a sturdier structure. if it can produce the same weight with a smaller footprint i'll be happy. i have been breaking large branches lately.
later, d9
also, i wanted you to know that i have been DF'ing in veg. so far i'm happy with the results. shorter internodes for sure. the plant seems to be developing a sturdier structure. if it can produce the same weight with a smaller footprint i'll be happy. i have been breaking large branches lately.
later, d9
Marquis de Sod
Member
jrosek, where the fuck ARE YOU?
jrosek, where the fuck ARE YOU?
HOLY CRAP! what a long read. highly advise only reading Keefs posts as he quotes every question he answers in them.
JROSEK! hey man, you ever thought about JOINING the goddamned forum?? i tried your way, all except the buckets with NO holes in them, back about two or three years ago and got four awesome, unbelieveable plants. then i could never in all this time duplicate it. Remember in 'size does matter' thread, you said 'take 100 clones and i'll walk you thru it', yeah right, then disappeared off the face of the earth. this thread is the first and only i've heard from you in those three years. thanks alot. but...i understand...shit happens.
so readers listen to keef. i KILLED my crappy shante devi DFing 2 months into bloom. but i had no choice, i think heat stopped them from budding last month. all i had was layer upon layer of more and samller fan leaves. underneath the bud sites were a joke.
but remembering jr's posts and seeing in the first ten or so pages of this thread all the great results i did some SIDE BY SIDE TESTING PEOPLE! two weeks into bloom. and as has been posted already by someone about page 45, 'the reason there is no side by side testing is because after a couple of weeks into it, when we see how much better the DF'd plants look than the others, we DF THEM TOO!' HOW RIGHT YOU ARE! i wasted no time ending my experiment and DF'ing EVERYTHING I OWN, VEG AND BLOOM, (exept for my small budded plants like the one i killed). yes, Keef warned about doing it. i did it anyway. i did DF the other older heat damaged ones but to a much lesser extent. (at least i THINK it's the heat that made them do this. same strain turned out excellent w/o df'ing before the hot spell, and new additions are looking good to. sure to be mucho better tho with the massive dfing their gettin
I would like to ask the OP Keef this. i feel it is much more than just 'letting in more light' as lots of people seem to think. i think it's obvious that pulling the fans off a site does something chemical to STIMULATE LEAF GROWTH at the node. don't ask me what, but i'm sure it is more than just getting more light on it. the plant knows it has to make up for the loss of the fan.
So NO it's NOT just about how much light gets in. nor does it matter a whit if you pinch with fingers or cut with a scissors. cutting too many little ones like someone did a page or three back, might be responsible for a little mold i experienced, but mostly that plant i butchered just went limp and croaked. something else happened to them tho like i said..heat stroke!
ANYWAY, THANK YOU KEEF FOR THIS and for the guy who referred me to this thread from the 'striping' thread (Phedrosbenny). For i am stuck with a strain of very very leafy, branching indica (sd) plants, and now i will avoid having them not produce shit!! it looks like they love being stripped.
btw jrosek, i have tried using pots with no holes and it doesnt seem to hurt anything. they produced and are producing nicely. i also have a real hempy bucket....same thing. the rest i have put all in either 2/3 perlite, 1/3 vermiculite with great results. and the others are in great store bought dirt like ocean forest, but with 2-3 inches of perlite/vermiculite in the bottoms and i feed with 6/9 GH hydro only for the P/V and that and other stuff like PBP or even fish emulsion on the mixed soils. i thought nothing could beat the straight P/V but the soil on top of the 2" of P/V actually did pass them up at one month. the pots w/o holes would seem to save on water/ferts as well as those damned runoff containers which are too over priced. i could mention a bunch of other growing things i do but believe the are mostly irrelevant. except i truly believe that having that 2" of P or p/v in the bottom of every containter is something everybody here should do also. works just as good as dfing, if you can believe that. TRY IT AND SEE.
put me down as a hard core DFer (that doesnt stand for Dumb Fucker either).
i totally recommend dfin. And topping them prior to one month. and it seems you can start just about any time you want to. just DONT do a total job on them 6 weeks+ into bloom!! (ie listen to the man).
now, if i can just figure out what ferts to use in bloom to get big fat fuckin colas, i will be all set.
jrosek, where the fuck ARE YOU?
HOLY CRAP! what a long read. highly advise only reading Keefs posts as he quotes every question he answers in them.
JROSEK! hey man, you ever thought about JOINING the goddamned forum?? i tried your way, all except the buckets with NO holes in them, back about two or three years ago and got four awesome, unbelieveable plants. then i could never in all this time duplicate it. Remember in 'size does matter' thread, you said 'take 100 clones and i'll walk you thru it', yeah right, then disappeared off the face of the earth. this thread is the first and only i've heard from you in those three years. thanks alot. but...i understand...shit happens.
so readers listen to keef. i KILLED my crappy shante devi DFing 2 months into bloom. but i had no choice, i think heat stopped them from budding last month. all i had was layer upon layer of more and samller fan leaves. underneath the bud sites were a joke.
but remembering jr's posts and seeing in the first ten or so pages of this thread all the great results i did some SIDE BY SIDE TESTING PEOPLE! two weeks into bloom. and as has been posted already by someone about page 45, 'the reason there is no side by side testing is because after a couple of weeks into it, when we see how much better the DF'd plants look than the others, we DF THEM TOO!' HOW RIGHT YOU ARE! i wasted no time ending my experiment and DF'ing EVERYTHING I OWN, VEG AND BLOOM, (exept for my small budded plants like the one i killed). yes, Keef warned about doing it. i did it anyway. i did DF the other older heat damaged ones but to a much lesser extent. (at least i THINK it's the heat that made them do this. same strain turned out excellent w/o df'ing before the hot spell, and new additions are looking good to. sure to be mucho better tho with the massive dfing their gettin
I would like to ask the OP Keef this. i feel it is much more than just 'letting in more light' as lots of people seem to think. i think it's obvious that pulling the fans off a site does something chemical to STIMULATE LEAF GROWTH at the node. don't ask me what, but i'm sure it is more than just getting more light on it. the plant knows it has to make up for the loss of the fan.
So NO it's NOT just about how much light gets in. nor does it matter a whit if you pinch with fingers or cut with a scissors. cutting too many little ones like someone did a page or three back, might be responsible for a little mold i experienced, but mostly that plant i butchered just went limp and croaked. something else happened to them tho like i said..heat stroke!
ANYWAY, THANK YOU KEEF FOR THIS and for the guy who referred me to this thread from the 'striping' thread (Phedrosbenny). For i am stuck with a strain of very very leafy, branching indica (sd) plants, and now i will avoid having them not produce shit!! it looks like they love being stripped.
btw jrosek, i have tried using pots with no holes and it doesnt seem to hurt anything. they produced and are producing nicely. i also have a real hempy bucket....same thing. the rest i have put all in either 2/3 perlite, 1/3 vermiculite with great results. and the others are in great store bought dirt like ocean forest, but with 2-3 inches of perlite/vermiculite in the bottoms and i feed with 6/9 GH hydro only for the P/V and that and other stuff like PBP or even fish emulsion on the mixed soils. i thought nothing could beat the straight P/V but the soil on top of the 2" of P/V actually did pass them up at one month. the pots w/o holes would seem to save on water/ferts as well as those damned runoff containers which are too over priced. i could mention a bunch of other growing things i do but believe the are mostly irrelevant. except i truly believe that having that 2" of P or p/v in the bottom of every containter is something everybody here should do also. works just as good as dfing, if you can believe that. TRY IT AND SEE.
put me down as a hard core DFer (that doesnt stand for Dumb Fucker either).
i totally recommend dfin. And topping them prior to one month. and it seems you can start just about any time you want to. just DONT do a total job on them 6 weeks+ into bloom!! (ie listen to the man).
now, if i can just figure out what ferts to use in bloom to get big fat fuckin colas, i will be all set.
MdS,
thanks for reading. It has indeed gotten long but the participation and results other than my own are what is so fun to see.
My own feeling is the simple answer. Light exposure drives better development. Although I have absolutely no scientific backing to that nor anyway to conduct anything other than observations. Surely there are chemical responses to reduced leaf mass but they are fueled by enhanced light exposure. Everyone seems to express plant responses like this "the plant senses less leaf so it grows more...." as though the plant evaluates changes in it's environment the way a human might and make a decision as to what to do. That projects a behavior on plants which is more applicable to beings with a brain and appendages(arms and legs) at it's control. I prefer to view the plant as a system like an IP network. It is dynamic in it's reponses to stimuli or changes in environment, though it's responses are localized and not centrally controlled by a brain. IP networks are controlled by localized routers and no central brain. Plants are individualized photosythesizing nutrient conversion systems all performing amazing productive feats whether they are trees or the lichen that grows on them. None of this is centralized brain controlled but localized chemical processes within each system that respond to sunlight, season and the available nutrients within reach of the roots. More like the autonomic responses in the human system but still without central brain control.
The localization of responses like enhanced growth can be seen when a plant or shrub is located on a partially shaded area. The plant grows heartiest where the sunlight is strongest. One half of the shrub could be weak but where it reaches better sun it thrives. Leaf removal is the same thing. Remove leaf from just one half of a large plant and the defoliated side will respond as expected and the leafy side stil be shading it's lowers and mids with predictable results. The response to defoliation is localized thus giving support to the simple explanation of it being light exposure driven. Any chemical response is simply the supplying of nutrients for the replacement leaves stimulated by the fresh stronger light.
Marquis de Sod
Member
thx keef! i appreciate your reply. what i am talking about really is only when the plant is going to reproduce leaves, which would be in veg only and in the first month or so of bloom.
many times i have a plant that has a fan leaf growing out of it with NO leaves or at least almost none at the corresponding node. these plants are small and nothing at all is stopping them from full light. however, i can let this plant go on as it is and nothing happens except the fan leaf gets bigger and bigger. when you cut the fan off that gets the node to grow its leaves out. that's it in a nutshell.
btw, what is the other thread you have been spending most of your time on these days? and thanks again so much for this info, man it has just saved my life with this strain i got. even tho for some reason i haven't figured out my plants that are growing faster in the P/V mix or bottoms, have tended to be taller, stretching more than they have. this DFing will definitely slow or stop this unwanted stretch, as well as making less fans. perfect!!!
many times i have a plant that has a fan leaf growing out of it with NO leaves or at least almost none at the corresponding node. these plants are small and nothing at all is stopping them from full light. however, i can let this plant go on as it is and nothing happens except the fan leaf gets bigger and bigger. when you cut the fan off that gets the node to grow its leaves out. that's it in a nutshell.
btw, what is the other thread you have been spending most of your time on these days? and thanks again so much for this info, man it has just saved my life with this strain i got. even tho for some reason i haven't figured out my plants that are growing faster in the P/V mix or bottoms, have tended to be taller, stretching more than they have. this DFing will definitely slow or stop this unwanted stretch, as well as making less fans. perfect!!!
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