Defoliation: Hi-Yield Technique?

[St3ve]

i sure hope buddys plant makes a monster Yield i think he said he was in week 2 flower yo St3ve could you post a pic of your defoiled plants please

Yea that plant looks pretty sad.. but I'm sure you can bring it back.


and no I don't post pictures because I don't live in a med state. However if you look through this thread, there are countless pictures. Not that it matters though.. you're pretty dead set that everyone is wrong so the pictures didn't do much for you anyway. I'm not here to convince you that this system works.. I just feel that you coming in here and preaching that it DOESN'T work without the proper experience to back it up. If you can't make this system work for you then thats ok, but if some ppl can make it work well its just silly for you to come in here and try to tell them it doesn't work.

 

[siftedunity]

Yea that plant looks pretty sad.. but I'm sure you can bring it back.


and no I don't post pictures because I don't live in a med state. However if you look through this thread, there are countless pictures. Not that it matters though.. you're pretty dead set that everyone is wrong so the pictures didn't do much for you anyway. I'm not here to convince you that this system works.. I just feel that you coming in here and preaching that it DOESN'T work without the proper experience to back it up. If you can't make this system work for you then thats ok, but if some ppl can make it work well its just silly for you to come in here and try to tell them it doesn't work.

well we have come here with scientific evidence to back up our point. just saying oh well it works is just hearsay really doesnt prove anything. i cant think of a single organism - being plant or animal, that grows bigger when you take away its food.

you explain that it just requires extra veg time. but perhaps it wouldnt need extra veg time if you didnt chop all the leaves off?

 

[catman]

if you cut off half the leaves or even a a qtr, your going to significantly affect how much food the plant can produce. hence why its growth will stand still.
and another ponit is plants do not shed their leaves to concentrate on bud growth, the plant will literally suck all of the energy and food out of each leaf as it is maturing and once to stores have been used up the leaves fall off.

and to the other part highlighted, you can easily get fat buds under a 600w.

Only Calcium and Magnesium uptake is dependent on transpiration which is reduced from less foliage surface area. Considering you say leafs both produce and store food; no need to produce what doesn't need to be stored. Plants shed lower leafs in vegetative states when the atopical growth shades what normally lies underneath of it. I use a vertical bulb so this does not happen. I don't claim to have a compressive understanding on this topic and you don't either. So, I hope ya see your opinion is just as wrong as mine.

5gal bucket sized buds under a 600w is what i was asking about. Not about yield. Don't say I'm wrong when ya can't read what I've said

 

[eL artist]

man that first plant looks beat up. the reason you have side branching is because they are topped. either that or because you are removing fans the plant is desperately trying to put out more leaves(hence the side branching).

I know it is beat up, (cut literary came from bag of trash, long story) but this is a backup mom that has been in that little pot for like 6+ months. total root lock. but it does show how defol effects the natural growth chareteristcs. and not topped it is fim'd (both plants had been fim at some point in life) and no that does nothing to this strain (indca pheno of bog's ssk) just grows next node out like it never got fim'd but defol does force side branching for excactly why u described. you use the word deperate to belittle technique but you are right it forces plant to put more leaves out (hence the side branching) hence works great

 

[DrFever]

no this technique is not for getting light to lower bud growth but the way the buds grows. the lower buds the upper buds all buds they grow way different like wow so different. this technique requires you to change veg techniques as it does stunt growth in veg and plants will not stretch as much in flo either but if height is issue and u have ability to veg longer try this cause you will get thicker colas and yield should increase.

check the pages used to b skeptical til I saw the light of how to increase veg time and how this will make your plants grow, taken single stem indca phenos that don't branch at all become super branchey girls, takes awhile but this technique work. technique is not just about lower light penetration but is about changing plant structure and growth characteristics unlike lst or fim or toopping

you could also take a cutting from a flowering plant and get a crazy ass branched tree but again it takes little longer to veg

 

[tenthirty]

If a leaf is below the compensation point it will not produce enough energy to sustain itself, much less contribute to growth of the over all plant. Removing this leaf will have no adverse effect. Also removing these leaves will lessen the neighbor detection response.

http://plantphys.info/plant_biology/photopart.shtml (about half way down)

Good read.
http://biology.mcgill.ca/Phytotron/LightWkshp1994/2.3 Ballare/Ballare Text.htm

 

[St3ve]

well we have come here with scientific evidence to back up our point. just saying oh well it works is just hearsay really doesnt prove anything. i cant think of a single organism - being plant or animal, that grows bigger when you take away its food.

you explain that it just requires extra veg time. but perhaps it wouldnt need extra veg time if you didnt chop all the leaves off?

The proof is in the pudding so to speak. I grow more bud with this technique. I'm not saying that I "could" or that it "should" work, I'm saying it DOES work because I do it every grow, 5-6 cycles a year, for at least over a year now.

I can tell you this or tell you that and it doesn't matter. You can tell me your science this or that, but it doesn't matter. All that matters is what I grow(to me). So you can swing your science all day long and that doesn't change my yields.

And you are exactly right, if I didn't take off any leaves, I would not have to veg as long. But veg time is not the problem.. square footage is. There is only so much space for the allotted lighting footprint. If and when I don't defoliate, the plant is leggier and has less budsites for the given area of each plant. There is a limited amount of room for each plant.. so my goal is to maximize how much bud I can get per the given foot print.

What do you think would produce more bud in a 2' square footprint.. a plant with 10 budsites on a leggy plant, or 20 budsites on a stout plant in the same 2'?


*about the science.. I'm not saying that the science is bad or that I don't respect it. I'm just saying that maybe the same botanists who wrote the papers that you guys are quoting, never thought to experiment with this technique.

 

[St3ve]

I also want to point out.. you guys are going on and on about "plants need their leaves" and food and photosynthesis. You aren't providing any science as to how much the plant actually needs to perform well.

My point being, the plant also needs light, nutes, and water, but if you have too much or too little it could severely stress or kill the plant. So just stating that it needs leaves doesn't really prove anything.

 

[siftedunity]

Only Calcium and Magnesium uptake is dependent on transpiration which is reduced from less foliage surface area. Considering you say leafs both produce and store food; no need to produce what doesn't need to be stored. Plants shed lower leafs in vegetative states when the atopical growth shades what normally lies underneath of it. I use a vertical bulb so this does not happen. I don't claim to have a compressive understanding on this topic and you don't either. So, I hope ya see your opinion is just as wrong as mine.

5gal bucket sized buds under a 600w is what i was asking about. Not about yield. Don't say I'm wrong when ya can't read what I've said

im quite happy to be proven wrong with scientice fact rather that just someones opinion. so il highlight what i definately do know and leave the rest.

 

[siftedunity]

Only Calcium and Magnesium uptake is dependent on transpiration which is reduced from less foliage surface area.
this statement isnt true, transpiration is what helps the plant pull in water into a plant and roots absorb water and nutrients not just just cal and mag. if a plant could select what nutrients it absorbed then you wouldnt be able to overfeed etc.

Considering you say leafs both produce and store food; no need to produce what doesn't need to be stored.
most organisms store food.
Plants shed lower leafs in vegetative states when the atopical growth shades what normally lies underneath of it.
yup good point if a plant doesnt need a leaf it will drop it by itself.
I use a vertical bulb so this does not happen.
I don't claim to have a compressive understanding on this topic and you don't either. So, I hope ya see your opinion is just as wrong as mine.
i dont have a fantastic understanding just a basic knowledge more than some less than others.if im wrong im happy to admit that.

5gal bucket sized buds under a 600w is what i was asking about. Not about yield. Don't say I'm wrong when ya can't read what I've said
little bit rude to assume i cant read. i qouted you in your last post where you asked if big buds like that could be produced under a 600w. and like i said before yes you dont have to use a 1000w to get massive buds.

for the record im not here to have a pissing contest but if people are gonna claim things as fact on a forum which is incorrect, someone is gonna try to correct it. good day to you sir..

 

[TribalSeeds]

for the record im not here to have a pissing contest but if people are gonna claim things as fact on a forum which is incorrect, someone is gonna try to correct it.

Id let you go on, but now I have to correct you!

You are right about what youre saying! BUT...

You havent done this and I dont think you are seeing the purpose. I cant fit a leafy plant in the same space as I can fit a defoliated plant(thats a fact). I also cant get my light to penetrate as deep into a leafy plant as I can with a defoliated plant(Thats a fact!), but I can get more budsites on a defoliated plant than I can get on a leafy plant in the same amount of space(thats a fact). Its just that simple.
If you have plenty of space and dont mind using some of it to grow leaf instead of bud, thats awesome! But if you want to maximize the space you do have, dont waste it on leaf.
This technique will take some practice and is probably more for the advanced grower who has experience with the strain they are working with.

 

[siftedunity]

The proof is in the pudding so to speak. I grow more bud with this technique. I'm not saying that I "could" or that it "should" work, I'm saying it DOES work because I do it every grow, 5-6 cycles a year, for at least over a year now.

your right proof is in the pudding. shame you cant show us what you do so you can prove your point.

 

[siftedunity]

Id let you go on, but now I have to correct you!

You are right about what youre saying! BUT...

You havent done this and I dont think you are seeing the purpose. I cant fit a leafy plant in the same space as I can fit a defoliated plant(thats a fact). I also cant get my light to penetrate as deep into a leafy plant as I can with a defoliated plant(Thats a fact!), but I can get more budsites on a defoliated plant than I can get on a leafy plant in the same amount of space(thats a fact). Its just that simple.
If you have plenty of space and dont mind using some of it to grow leaf instead of bud, thats awesome! But if you want to maximize the space you do have, dont waste it on leaf.
This technique will take some practice and is probably more for the advanced grower who has experience with the strain they are working with.

well i scrog so the leaves underneath the scrog get chopped or fall off anyway so that the only buds/ leaf on the plant are already getting full light exposure.

but scrogging isnt the same as defoliation.

everyone knows that light intesity decreases further away from the bulb so why would you want deeper light penetration anyway? its gonna be less intense the deeper it penetrates anyway.
why no just lollypop/scrost lst or whatever? you can still manipulate the plant to have more budsites with light exposure- just not at the bottom of the plant.

tribal ive seen your plants they look nice. but they dont look like you have pulled loads of leaves off.

 

[TribalSeeds]

well i scrog so the leaves underneath the scrog get chopped or fall off anyway so that the only buds/ leaf on the plant are already getting full light exposure.

but scrogging isnt the same as defoliation.

everyone knows that light intesity decreases further away from the bulb so why would you want deeper light penetration anyway? its gonna be less intense the deeper it penetrates anyway.
why no just lollypop/scrost lst or whatever? you can still manipulate the plant to have more budsites with light exposure- just not at the bottom of the plant.

tribal ive seen your plants they look nice. but they dont look like you have pulled loads of leaves off.

Exactly! thats what Im saying. Youre going to defoliate but end up with a leaf producing monster. You need to keep taking them off. Im pussy footing into it and just removing enough shade so that my buds get light. I had to remove so much from the bottom because I didnt remove enough leaf.
I had stunted clones from a shop and had issues to deal with from the start that kind of determined the structure of the plants. I had to either remove leaf, or remove plants.
The rest of your questions have been covered so many times. Ill leave it up to you to try for yourself sometime. If youre using 1000's it might not make sense because you cant really get the bulbs close enough to see added gains by exposing the bottom. With multiple 600's I can see issues, but with the OP's 400's I can see the Huge benefit he gets from this method.
Im not saying youre wrong about what you have to say, just that I can tell that youve missed the OP's point by your posts here.

 

[siftedunity]

yup i get ya it wasnt the op i was disagreeing with it was some of the recent posts over the last couple of pages, i do see where your comming from though, i personallly use 1000w and 600w so ive got experience with both but as i said before, i scrog so on the wire netting level il have all the bud and all the leaf at pretty much the same level. everything underneath gets chopped before it even develops into stems or whatever

 

[DrFever]

yup i get ya it wasnt the op i was disagreeing with it was some of the recent posts over the last couple of pages, i do see where your comming from though, i personallly use 1000w and 600w so ive got experience with both but as i said before, i scrog so on the wire netting level il have all the bud and all the leaf at pretty much the same level. everything underneath gets chopped before it even develops into stems or whatever

That is correct you don't need to worry about the bottom buds all you need to do is worry about the top 200 bud sites that is utilizing your grow space also seems everytime i mention as to this technique saying i guess its to get light to lower bud sites , then get answers that is not what this is about ???? wow you ever here if farmers defoilating anything ) better get out there and defoilate my potato fields or my corn fields this is just WRONG period
you here my yields increased hahaha again how many times have you trimmed a plant only to see imature lower buds , i can tell you 99 percent of the time wowo lets defoilate our plants to gain 3 grams of shake can anyone show me a bud site from defoilating that is the same as a top bud ??????
The answer will be NO

PS with drying and curing a bud bud loses what 75 percent of it so what getting a bunch of small crap buds becomes shake you put that crap on a shelf to sell as medical MJ your dispensary will be bankrupt in know time

 

[siftedunity]

That is correct you don't need to worry about the bottom buds all you need to do is worry about the top 200 bud sites that is utilizing your grow space also seems everytime i mention as to this technique saying i guess its to get light to lower bud sites , then get answers that is not what this is about ???? wow you ever here if farmers defoilating anything ) better get out there and defoilate my potato fields or my corn fields this is just WRONG period
you here my yields increased hahaha again how many times have you trimmed a plant only to see imature lower buds , i can tell you 99 percent of the time wowo lets defoilate our plants to gain 3 grams of shake can anyone show me a bud site from defoilating that is the same as a top bud ??????
The answer will be NO

true.. i dont get the idea of chopping off my nice beautiful green leaves so that a tiny little popcorn bud can poke through.

like ya say, utilize the top of the plant! thats why cannabis stretches in flolwer, its so that it can concentrate the fertile flowers as high as possible above the surrounding plants.

the bottom buds are never gonna get very big anyway. might aswell just chop them of early and the plant will put the extra growth into the top buds

 

[DrFever]

true.. i dont get the idea of chopping off my nice beautiful green leaves so that a tiny little popcorn bud can poke through.

like ya say, utilize the top of the plant! thats why cannabis stretches in flolwer, its so that it can concentrate the fertile flowers as high as possible above the surrounding plants.

the bottom buds are never gonna get very big anyway. might aswell just chop them of early and the plant will put the extra growth into the top buds

when people start realizing them little lower popcorn bud sites are suckers that are only going to suck nutrients away from the nice bud sites
yea you want to smoke a bud if i want popcorn i will watch a movie

 

[medicalmj]

when people start realizing them little lower popcorn bud sites are suckers that are only going to suck nutrients away from the nice bud sites
yea you want to smoke a bud if i want popcorn i will watch a movie

Yep! But to play the devils advo what if defoil'n in veg has some type of effect on the plant that increases budsites in flwr? I can say with some certainty that in flwr its not a benefit unless you get PM. in that case its the lesser of two evils as the extra leaf and thick bud harbor PM. BTW I just recorded my worst harvest w 1k since 1988 when I did 960w of flouros But it was better than expected, a total loss Had root rot, PM and weak ass plants. Oh well still got almost an elbow. Live and learn.

So, I'll never cut a healthy leaf up top (again). I will cut any leaf that has PM, regardless cause PM aint going away w OMRI treatments.

But back to the "pruning" techniques in veg. Could it change the plant in a fundamental way that increases bud sites and yet those add'l sites have the size/wt as if there were less? My firm belief has been that I do not induce flwr until all the tops (always do some sort of prune/fim/bend...) have the vigor and "look" of what the terminal bud would have had, if that makes sense. Granted this is all strain dependant, however. Thoughts???

 

[DrFever]

IMO its all about having good leafs you know as a person gets better that is all he looks at LEAFS by looking at them you can determine Macro / or micro def by the time you catch a nute burn or def on bud leafs well lets just say you hurt your yield
by taking off from i under stand from this thread literally skinning a plant in veg is only going to send plant into repair mode i totally under stand possibly taking off a portion of leafs in flower if there blocking would i do it NOT i tuck leafs lets look at this guys plants
https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=244366&page=6

you know for the amount of time it takes to veg and flower . Why mess around your better off getting better by keeping leafs green till harvest for maximum yield
by cutting leafs off veg or flower you can very easily cause plant disease from open wounds , and off course stress and slow growth these plants want to produce the best they can its in there genetics you can achieve tri fold yields by proper fimming , super cropping techniques, as well as topping here just from proper training look at the tops of plant theres like 50 branches per top as well as 50 tops per plant there you have it

PS: Still waiting on pictures of lower buds the size of top buds cause if your not getting it then its a waste of time in my books work on canopy management and producing lots of top buds