energy my man energy... if you didn't divert don't de-energy
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Defoliation: Hi-Yield Technique?
- Thread starter k33ftr33z
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bs0
Active member
scoping out what you have, you could really pull some fans.. but have your plants stopped stretching? They look around that point.
What you can do if it's your first time is to just take like 10% (be especially frugal, since your canopy is not super dense.) Initially I think I would just take the 8 largest highest leaves and see how it affects your light penetration. Don't take a ton because if light is hitting the floor it is wasted.
Just imo, but as far as defol goes, you can always take more leaves later. The plant will let you know in 2-3 days what it thinks of what you have done.
hey Blaz3,
Exactly... thats the basic principal of Defol anyways... it's just that the main benefit comes from applying this Tech throughout the entire veg cycle as well, as removing the fans in veg creates more/larger bud sites.
But IMO pulling any fan leaves that directly shade a bud will always help... just ONLY pull the largest fans and do it over the course of a week or two and the plant shouldn't have any adverse affects, as apposed to taking all of the fans at once can cause some stress in indoor plants that are not used to being Defoliated.
EDIT:to be honest though Blaz3, I would Recommend you wait on trying any serious Defoliation and get your room and technique dialed in and optimized first then work on increasing your yield via Defoliation... as it won't help much on a plant that isn't already producing near its limits.
Peace,
Infi
^^ this is an excellent post
this is my exact same experience, I started doing this on my very first grow back in the day sort of intuitionally then K33f started this thread and it helped me understand what I was doing much more... and allowed me to refine exactly how i went about it
In Bold
LOL... These are also the exact criteria I use when determining when and what leaves to pull!
the only difference is I don't Defol on any schedule just whenever I look at them and notice a couple big Old fan leaf I say to myself "hey you fan leaf wtf?... your blocking out your "buddies" down there... you're outta here!"
Peace,
Infi
Blaz3
Member
Did you defol prior to flowering..was your first time defol at day 14 of 12/12..
I ask because tommorow will be day 28..and I am really considering defoliating my plants..I have never done it before...should I?
^^^ you have your answer right here bro,
I can tell by the symmetrical bud sites forming directly up against the main stem and the fact that in your other thread it took so long to start budding... that you are
1) growing plants from seed and..
2) didn't veg them until sexual maturity (30-50 days) so...
thats why when you flipped the plants to 12/12 they didn't flower right away and also why they are not bushy (since you took seedling directly into flower).
Defoliation is mainly meant to be used during veg to create more lateral branching and thereby increase the number of bud sites. So defoliating now, since they have already started flowering and are small pole type seedling SOG plants, is not going to help much besides allowing bit more light to neighboring plants... and if you are not careful and remove to many leaves on that small of a plant... you may end up doing more harm than good. I would hate to see you misconstrue the info in this thread, go hog wild and end up hurting plants!
If your plants were grown from clone and were larger or seeds vegetated longer into nice bushes I would say go for it and have fun, but in your circumstance I would almost suggest against you using defoliation at this time... but if you must tread carefully and don't get carried away... each individual plant (other than clones of course) responds to defoliation differently also.
just don't come back in here slamming Defol cause it hurt your plants or didn't help at all. Because I'm warning you... that while I could Defol those without hurting them, it also wouldn't help much and someone in your situation with less experience in defoliating may in fact hurt their plants.
what ever you choose to do... Good Luck!
Peace,
Infi
Blaz3
Member
Yes,correct guess..they were seed grown..vegged only 21 days.And yes they were very small when I flowered,and have stretched ALOT...
Here they are before 12/12:
6 Days into 12/12:
13 DAYS OF 12/12:
21 DAYS 12/12:
24 DAYS 12/12:
So you can see how much they stretched...I think your righth,that is the reason they took so lnog to flower....
My two ak48's are not flowering,even afetr 27 days of 12/12...what do you think??....isnt that a bit TOO long,even for immature seedlings??..they have pistils all over,but still no actual buds...theyr still growing leaves and branches....
I have trimmed the lower branches and leaves...but considering that theyr not really sog type plants (each plant has over 4 main colas)....
should I maybe defoliate?......Im REALLY considering it..
Infinite,take a look at the new pics and tell me what you think brother...
I cant give you more rep ;[...youv been a big help
Here they are before 12/12:
6 Days into 12/12:
13 DAYS OF 12/12:
21 DAYS 12/12:
24 DAYS 12/12:
So you can see how much they stretched...I think your righth,that is the reason they took so lnog to flower....
My two ak48's are not flowering,even afetr 27 days of 12/12...what do you think??....isnt that a bit TOO long,even for immature seedlings??..they have pistils all over,but still no actual buds...theyr still growing leaves and branches....
I have trimmed the lower branches and leaves...but considering that theyr not really sog type plants (each plant has over 4 main colas)....
should I maybe defoliate?......Im REALLY considering it..
Infinite,take a look at the new pics and tell me what you think brother...
I cant give you more rep ;[...youv been a big help
yeah, you can Defol... just take it very easy only take the big leaves directly blocking a bud.
on the AK... 28 days isn't un heard of but that is usually on some crazy Sativa... some seed lines Vary wildly from one plant to the next so thats why choosing your breeder and variety is so very important... the immaturity of the seedling could play a role also... so lets say that AK 48 plant takes 50 days veg to reach sexual maturity and then also for some reason takes 3 weeks to show flowers when veged to maturity and since you didn't veg to maturity that could explain why its taking a while to form buds. then some strains don't fully fill in until the last 2-3 weeks anyways... it could be getting less light than others... so its hard to say
Don't worry about the rep bro... I've got more than enoughPeace,
Infi
Blaz3
Member
Infinite..sorry for all the questions lol..but what made you change your mind,in terms of whether I should defol or not?
Do you recommend,do you actually think I can SLIGHTLY increase my yield by defoling?....I have a few more hours until I decide,I need all the input I can get..
Will it stunt them?
Do you recommend,do you actually think I can SLIGHTLY increase my yield by defoling?....I have a few more hours until I decide,I need all the input I can get..
Will it stunt them?
I thought they were single stalk plants, even then I said you could still do it and possibly notice a slight benefit... but still be very cautious.
like I said Defol is intended for large trained plants with many many branches... so no matter what even if you Defol your plants perfectly, the end result for have defoliating will be a small increase in yield, especially as compared to someone who does this while vegetating a seedling for 60 days.
Will it stunt them? in a sense it could, thats why Im saying be careful... Ive messed up a highly Sativa strain by overzealously picking fan leaves... and yours look to be a bit Sativa, Sats need those leaves especially indoor under a 400w. So as Iv'e been saying all along, only take the large leaves with the long stems that are directly shading a bud.
I'm a "big fan" of Defol... but in your case I Myself wouldn't, but you can! I would just recommend for your best experience with defol that you venture lightly into Defol ( seems like you are ready to strip her naked of all her leaves) especially since you are starting late and are doing this on seedlings.
And maybe even thinking about getting couple successful grows under your belt to where you are happy with what you are producing and super comfortable in the cycle of your grows before you jump head first into this technique... but again its your plants and you can do what you think is best.
Peace,
Infi
Blaz3
Member
While this thread definitely is interesting..I will post what I think...ofcourse Im just another noob,but Ill post anyways...
1.I would say this is an experimental technique?Obviously your plants have to be in good health,and you have to be an experienced grower,to be able to continually stress (and yes it IS stress) the plants,but keep it producing...I would advise new growers NOT to try this,in an effort for magically bigger harvests..as things can go wrong very fast....
2.What I see so far,is a handful of growers who advocate it,and thousands of posts saying its harmful,or it didnt work for them....then I see those that DO advocate it,say its very strain dependant...or maybe even luck of the draw??.....if this is to be a solid,DEPENDABLE technique,then it should work for everyone..not just some LUCKY growers...thats the main problem with this.
3.My last comment,something that bothers me about this thread,....all who advocate it,are saying that "if you dont prepare and defoliate the plants in veg,then your not doing this righth"....My question is WHY?...who says you HAVE to defoliate in veg?..what are the SCIENTIFIC principles behind this??...why shouldnt this work if you defoliate only in flower after stretch?....sure the original poster said to start in veg,but WHY?....
I have seen some growers here who do it afetr the stretch (3-4weeks)....so why not?.....either come up with a solid,SCIENTIFIC anser...this whole "if you dont start in veg your not doing it the way the author wrote) is getting OLD...
I see no difference,apart from more branching if you start in veg..either way,most plants are going to get BIG during the stretch period..with plentiful branches..then why not simply defoliate..skip the vegging step,but still reap the benefits??!
1.I would say this is an experimental technique?Obviously your plants have to be in good health,and you have to be an experienced grower,to be able to continually stress (and yes it IS stress) the plants,but keep it producing...I would advise new growers NOT to try this,in an effort for magically bigger harvests..as things can go wrong very fast....
2.What I see so far,is a handful of growers who advocate it,and thousands of posts saying its harmful,or it didnt work for them....then I see those that DO advocate it,say its very strain dependant...or maybe even luck of the draw??.....if this is to be a solid,DEPENDABLE technique,then it should work for everyone..not just some LUCKY growers...thats the main problem with this.
3.My last comment,something that bothers me about this thread,....all who advocate it,are saying that "if you dont prepare and defoliate the plants in veg,then your not doing this righth"....My question is WHY?...who says you HAVE to defoliate in veg?..what are the SCIENTIFIC principles behind this??...why shouldnt this work if you defoliate only in flower after stretch?....sure the original poster said to start in veg,but WHY?....
I have seen some growers here who do it afetr the stretch (3-4weeks)....so why not?.....either come up with a solid,SCIENTIFIC anser...this whole "if you dont start in veg your not doing it the way the author wrote) is getting OLD...
I see no difference,apart from more branching if you start in veg..either way,most plants are going to get BIG during the stretch period..with plentiful branches..then why not simply defoliate..skip the vegging step,but still reap the benefits??!
Well first off.. if you want to try something you read on the internet, then try it. Do it the way it was meant to be done, then come up with your opinions on it. You are questioning things that you don't understand.. which is fine I guess but if you just did it the way that was outlined, you would learn for yourself why or why not to do some things.
And yes, I would NOT do it now in flower without having first done it through veg. And yes, the answer to your questions are all in this thread so just keep reading. Most people don't want to take their time to answer your questions when you don't want to take your time to read for the answers. Yes, they are all here in this read. When you say things like " I want to know why!" and "this is getting old" just makes people roll their eyes at you when the information is all right here. Its no ones job to convince you of anything.
If you want to talk about the nuts'n'bolts of things, ask yourself if you really know what all the purposes of a leaf are? Hit up google. Or.. you can read it here. People here are just trying to help you get big plants and although you can be pointed in the right direction, nobody is gunna spoon feed this shit to you.
"..it either works or it doesn't... in ALL circumstances.."
No. There are shades of grey.
"..it either works or it doesn't... in ALL circumstances.."
No. There are shades of grey.
Blaz3
Member
Shit..Ill read it all..Ill try..170 pages is damn long...
But I stand by what I said...from what little I have read..This technique is new..experimental..doesnt mean it cant be improved...nothing is fact..unless theres a definitive,CONTROLLED variable side by side in this long ass thread??Not a 2 clone,shitty closet side by side...an actual controllled experiment,with FACTS,and documented evidence?
I dont wanna ruffle any feathers...Ill go defoliate my plants...if they die,they die,fuck it,I like experimenting...Ill go now,gotta find the scissors..
But I stand by what I said...from what little I have read..This technique is new..experimental..doesnt mean it cant be improved...nothing is fact..unless theres a definitive,CONTROLLED variable side by side in this long ass thread??Not a 2 clone,shitty closet side by side...an actual controllled experiment,with FACTS,and documented evidence?
I dont wanna ruffle any feathers...Ill go defoliate my plants...if they die,they die,fuck it,I like experimenting...Ill go now,gotta find the scissors..
bs0
Active member
You can do it as both me and infi have described. Defol does not need to be done in veg as well, but that helps get the budsites much more packed which increases the effectiveness of the tech.
Defol helps most in tightly packed conditions. Your plants are borderline, but your light is not high intensity. You will be able to get some help with making the lower budsites more desirable, but will not see some OMG WOW result considering the conditions you are working with.
I guess I'll lay the disclaimer again... You can always pluck more leaves in the future - you can never put them back on. In my opinion, you will get plenty of quality-related results from just taking the biggest 10 fans from the upper canopy and then watching the plant to see what it thinks. If you overdo it, you will stunt your plant as it recovers. Do not overdo it. This is not a method of 'more is better', it is a method of precision and consideration of existing conditions.
I'm glad to hear that you are going to read it.
Of course any and everything can be improved on.. I mean, this technique in it self is an improvement. The problem is that you are making opinions and assumptions on something you don't understand, nor have never experienced. That makes you sound foolish.
The reason ppl are ignoring your "request" for facts and such are that its not worth our time. This technique is presented here as a success that someone else discovered.. take what you want from it or not and move on. Its not the op's job or anyone elses to convince you.
and despite what bs0 has found, I find that it does NOT increase yield if only done in flower and not in veg. If you do it in veg, it compacts the budsites and creates more of them overall in the given space. Then in flower, you have to continue on defoliating so it doesn't overcrowd. If you DON'T do it in veg, the plant will be more stretched and bigger. If you pluck the fans only at that point, it will make the top buds smaller and the lower buds larger and no real improvement in yield.
This is from my own personal experience with this on at least 12 or so runs and 100's of plants. If done correctly, it can most certainly increase final yield.
bs0
Active member
Ya, i'll advise people because I love this plant and want to help people enjoy it as much as I do... But if someone says "well I'm going to do what I think I should and if I do it wrong fuck em' for their shitty tech".. Kinda a put off. Wanna ask why for anything I do I will always have a response. If I don't have a response, well then you might help me learn something.
INSOFARAS my tech... I've said it before.. again still.. I have a very high stretch/yield plant to begin with (I lucked out with a fantastic chemdogxsourdiesel res bean) and for me, 1/2 defol during veg, 1/2 @ flip, and full defol @ end of stretch is the most optimal way to grow *my plant*. I have not yet dialed in another strain or experimented significantly, but for this plant this is the best way to grow it. I grow my plants close and big, and after stretch there is serious crowding that needs to be, and is, addressed by defol. If my plant was different I would likely have a different formula. This is why I can't say enough- learn your plant, all strains and phenos will respond differently. Defol is a tool, just like branch breaking and zip tying, that can optimize the light distribution to the budsites on your plant. If you have a heavy indica, low stretch plant, the formula *will change*. I believe that this is also the case of keeftrees the op. He found the best way to grow *his plant*. He is sharing his technique because he wants to share what he has learned. You many learn something different, and if you (anyone) does, please share because we can all learn from your experience.
Sorry for the long diatribe, getting into the green and getting verbose..
*edit*
my yield currently rolls @ 0.93gpw contently. Take my advice with that grain of salt.
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