Defoliation: Hi-Yield Technique?

[grassott]

i wanted to ask about nutrients in this method. do the plants require less nutrients in veg because of less leaves?

Very good point. After an aggressive defol early in veg, I highly recommend to drop the nutes to about half strength or so until the plants leaf up again (usually about 1 or 2 weeks.

I'm out of action atm coz I got busted. Cops got all my shit. Bummer!
But this is my crop just two weeks after an aggressive defoli...

I can't grow in my house. I got heat. But if I do grow again, it will be a more secure geurilla style set up, and yes, I will defoli for sure!

PS. Very nice crop you got there med4u ;]

 

[med4u]

that truly sucks my man,wtf happened?dirty rotten coppers!,looks like you had some beasties there too

 

[Avinash.miles]

thanks growott for those pics of veg plants then 3 days later, seems like that is the closest thing to a side by side of defoli vs non defoli that we are going to get, i would really like to see a journal or side by side experiment of half a room defolid and the other half not, all the same strain.
altho, i believe that like most techniques, it depends on the strain how well a technique like this will work.
personally i do it, but that isnt the end all, i do it nowadays simply because im working with a low ceiling and raised ebb n flow trays, with a scrog to stretch plants out not up, and i defoli because the canopy gets so dense....
like i said i would love to see a side by side of defoli vs non defoli, if there is one out there would someone plz like 2 it, thanks

happy growing!

 

[grassott]

^my pleasure bro. Not too sure why everybody babbles on about the side by side polava though lol. Say, you can do a side by side if you like. Has anyone seen a side by side of a scrogged plant compared to an LST'd plant? Or a super cropped plant compared to a topped/fimmed plant? See what I'm sayin?

 

[Tuhder]

I think people who are against defoliation are generally against stunting their plants in any way, shape or form, Which includes all excepted HST's.

Stunting your plants natural growth rate may seem like a negative thing mainly because your going to lengthen your veg time which in turn lengthens the cycle time as a whole.

Many people including myself have seen the benefits of pruning fan leaves or "defoliation". The greatest benefit of taking fan leaves is the change in structure of the vegging plant, The vertical growth at the top of the plant slows greatly while the bottom half of the plant is exposed to more light and starts to catch up with the tops of the plant, Creating a bush and shorter overall internode length.

I have stripped plants for a long time and I can tell you that I don't recommend it nor do I oppose it, Its all up to the grower and what he or she is trying to achieve.

The problems with stripping leaf from your plants is directly related to its benefits, So yes, It's a good thing and a bad thing all at once.

The Pros: More light to more bud sites, Increased structure, The ability to control vertical stretch and keep an even canopy, more bud sites created due to "re leafing", More air flow between plants.

The Cons: Stunted growth rates, leaf production increases, The plants overall ability to dispel water is greatly reduced.

You can be for defoliation or against it, But what we all have to agree on is that defoliation IS a growing technique just like all the currently excepted high stress training techniques.

If your going to agree with this technique, Agree because of your personal experience, Not cause you saw Delta9 yield 15oz off one plant. And if your going to say this technique sucks say it because you tried it and it really did suck for you.

Later!

 

[grassott]

Defol's great for my grow style/veg time. If you grow with short veg time (such as SOG) then don't defol. My veg time exceeds 10 weeks. A perfect time for my defol'd crop to recover.

I agree with this technique due to my personal experience. Delta don't defol in veg. We have totally different defol techniques and grow styles. Delta defols his way, Tuhder defols his way and I defol mine.

Also, there are many more pro's of my defol style than Tuhder mentioned.

On my next geurilla crop I'm gonna defol. I also plan to show all pics results after harvest.

Peace out!

 

[extreegrowerrr]

defoliation works! been doing it for years! i defoliate 3 weeks into flower. just big fan leaves! i dont touch them in veg or for the first three weeks of flower! it gets rid of all your popcorn and airy buds and gives you fat nugs throughout!

 

[extreegrowerrr]

check out avatar those are super silver haze defoliated! 4-1/2 week in

 

[Bassy59]

First time poster here.

I'm a new grower with journals going on a different site. That being said, take what I have to say with a grain of salt.

I have spent 10 days or so going over this entire thread up to page 169 and some 2500 posts. I've read nearly every post that had real content and much of the bantering bs as well.

Unfortunately I can't seem to get pages to go beyond #187, so I'm hoping posting will also open it up for me.

Things of note I have found within this thread:

1. Numerous requests and DEMANDS for side by side as the only means to "prove" the theory. EVEN when told MANY TIMES side by side is not a provable test because of canopy height differences resulting in light positions being off from A & B samples AS WELL AS non def plants will shade out the def plant thus restricting the entire point which is to get light penetration over a WIDE, EVEN, OPEN, canopy to reach the TRAINED lower bud sites.

2. While OP suggests MANY times to start in veg, and to also NOT defoliate during 1st 21 days of flower (waiting for stretch to end), numerous folks have in fact done the opposite with less than preferred results and then BLAMED the technique as the cause! This in turn FUELS the posers the absolutely REFUSE to acknowledge those that have shown MANY pictures of plant after plant getting FAR higher yields using this method. Even some of these that did see large increases in yield mention they originally started in flower and saw results. However, it appears that those that actually followed the directions saw even higher yields.

3. Claims of LOWER yields. Yet numerous of these posters had other problems thus causing bad grows. Lets not forget the poster claiming mold was caused by doing defoliation! Wait, MOLD is a result of bad ENVIRONMENT! High humidity, bad air circulation are two leading causes of mold. Yet DEFOLIATING improves upon these problems with less transpiration and more circulation! As well, numerous claims of lower yield were posted when growers started def in EARLY flower! BAD IDEA! That is not what was suggested. Ever.

4. Total disregard to one poster (gosh I hate not remembering who) that is a top retired statistical comparative analyst further refuting why you cannot do side by side in this scenario.

5. How does one POSSIBLY argue posters that give their yields of previous grows without defoliating, then post results and pictures of 6 or more CONSECUTIVE same strain, same pheno, grows with yields of 30%-40% more than they had achieved before (delta9 or something I believe?).

6. Numerous bashers of this technique refuse to even accept what the definition of defoliation is even AFTER given precise definitions from all over the web in technical form. Let alone, this being the "given" name for this technique by the op.

All that being said, while my 4x4 tent is in flower, I have a closet grow of clones going until I can harvest and move to my LED tent.
I was originally going to def SOME until I read this thread further and understood do all or none. So, all my clones are same strain, same mother except for 1 plant which is a different pheno (all AK48).

Mind you I have had a couple issues that were MY FAULT. One being accidentally burning some leaves on cfl when I held the tub-top up too high. Another being placing a 1 gal ice jug inside tub which froze and broke off the roots of a clone (which is recovering but almost died).

Here is a progression of pics up to date. I'm only 21 days into veg from clone rooting in root riot cubes. I have not had ideal conditions because my chiller is in use in my tent. I also had to hand feed 2 plants in tub daily because I only had a 6 port hub for my DWC.

These pics were from transplant to today (day 21). They are about 7-8" tall and will stay in veg 3 more weeks or so until I can move to tent after harvest. They are posted in chronological order.

Transplant day + 4


Day 13



https://www.icmag.com/ic/album.php?albumid=33765&pictureid=789855
Day 16


Present


I have no qualms trying this out. I have little experience growing as well. But I read my ass off. I also will not whine if I fail. After all, it will probably be my fault if I do. The things I am noticing so far are tight node development, robust recovery. Today I topped 2-3 (cant recall) and I have allowed some fans to stay a few days more at time until the corresponding node developed just a bit more. I am also doing my first bending-training with these. Kinda scary (for a newcomer like me) but you may be able to see these trained nodes are heading outwards which is exactly what we want.

Just a little side note about this thread. The definition of ignorance is: Ignorance is a state of being uninformed (lack of knowledge). Also, from wikipedia on the Consequences of Ignorance: Individuals with superficial knowledge of a topic or subject may be worse off than people who know absolutely nothing. As Charles Darwin observed, "ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge.

I hope and pray after 50+ yrs on this planet I never enter the state of ignorance.
https://www.icmag.com/ic/album.php?albumid=33765

 

[lbezphil2005]

bro, it just looks like its still page 187. we are on page like 292 something like that now, if you click the last page button it tells you 2927 or something like that, divide that by 10 and that gives you pages

 

[Bassy59]

bro, it just looks like its still page 187. we are on page like 292 something like that now, if you click the last page button it tells you 2927 or something like that, divide that by 10 and that gives you pages

Well I guess I've ready every page then. Though mine shows 28xx posts

 

[green thumbs]

Im going to try this technique for myself and see if it really does work like people are claiming

 

[Hydro-Soil]

I have spent 10 days or so going over this entire thread up to page 169 and some 2500 posts. I've read nearly every post that had real content and much of the bantering bs as well.

So....... Did you pick up enough information to answer the following question?

Do the grams per watt, per month go up or down?

1 gram per watt from a 6 day veg setup is not the same as 1 gram per watt from a setup with the same strain that vegged for 4 weeks.

Thanks!

Stay Safe!

 

[Hydro-Soil]

Anyone? I'd love to read the whole thread but it's taking me forever... kids, dogs, jobs.... it's a mess around here.

Thanks!

 

[875]

i think like many things, its strain dependent.... dialage seems to be the key. can be hard for people running small grows and different strains........

 

[Hydro-Soil]

Same strain... different technique.... Does this make your grams per watt go up or down.... Per Month.

Simple question. Anyone that knows how to grow and do research should be able to figure it out from this thread. I guess I'll have to read the thread. Heh..

Stay Safe!

Edit: Keeping my notes in this posting... Will keep it updated as I run across the pieces of the puzzle.

It takes preparation and an extra week or two. Extra time in veg should be inconsequential in the long run as veg is a constant operation.

In reality it is very consequential. Extra time in veg costs plant numbers and additional work (time isn't free).

It is all about having the patience to move back the timeline and add additional veg time into your schedule. Once this additional time has been integrated into the process it becomes standard and does not add to the actual production cycle.

But it still adds to the total watts, nutes and effort put into the grow. Is it worth it? To me the time trade off isn't worth it since I have family and RL that gets in the way.

Still reading to prove myself wrong.....

 

[disciple]

 

[disciple]

 

[grassott's dad]

...you'll really notice the effects under HID light not really CFL or LED as much but everything happens in a more pronounced way under HID vs. CFL or LED...

I veg with cfl's and defol works here too. The secret is placing the lights very close to the tops of the defol'd plants (distance from plants tolight is crucial and may need adjusting daily) but it does work great.

Granted though, HID lights are better than cfl though.

 

[il19z8rn4li1]

you are medical so plant numbers count, yes?

if you veg for the same time, flip and then do a defoliation around day 21 (but don't do things like "pistilwhip" or remove 1/3 of the bottom nodes) you will see an increase in total weight harvested from each plant and will use the same amount of power, same nutes, same time frame etc.

you can increase your results by tying/bracing/caging the limbs of each plant out and away from each other after flip or during veg and then tuning it during the stretch as well. a poultry fence cage or tomato cage will allow this or use yo-yo's, twine etc.

the goal is to increase and achieve maximum light exposure on each branch. different if you have vertical lighting (light comes from side) vs. overhead horizontal reflector fixtures where light comes from top. Just get each branch as exposed as much as possible and shade reduced to a minimum.

this will not increase your veg time or affect your plant count. business as usual.

I see in my garden that fans (not growing out of buds but the ones that create nodes starting in veg after rooting) drive the structural growth of the plant.

I think the importance of structural fan leaves (not ones growing out of the buds themselves) greatly diminishes once stretch is over and the structural (nodes, limbs, stems) growth has slowed right down.

This is why they can be removed to reduce shade and increase light without adverse effect.

The buds grow more from the energy generated in the fans that grow out of the buds themselves. I believe existing fans (the ones that turn color and get beat up as the plant transitions in to flower) do provide a benefit to the plant but that benefit is inconsequential compared to the benefit (extra growth, size, weight, potency) of removing them to get more light on the actual bud sites themselves.

I believe that the top (apical) nodes may grow larger and heavier if the structural fans are left intact but I believe the benefit is minimal and certainly more than offset by the increases in bud size, weight and potency in the middle of the plant and at the bottom.

A defoliated plant looks like shit till the leaves come back. the technique does work and is worth the eyesore.

Ditto my friend.

I say this to anyone really.. and I take the same advice..

Anyone can read something... doing it and getting the experience from it isnt something you can read.


I have ALWAYS done this method, way before I even found this forum. It was just kinda first nature for me because of what I like to call common sense, something I have a GREAT amount of.

Common sense mixed with Book Smarts.. = Greatness :-D

So you gotta ask yourself what is more important to the plant as a WHOLE?

I would say EVERYTHING BALANCED :-D
Add "something".. you gotta add more of every other "something" as well

With this method its simple to understand. The plant is MAINLY photosynthesizing while lights are on, not really GROWING that much, as compared to NIGHT time.

Photo' occurs where in the plant?
The cytoplasm.

Where is that located in the plant?
Everywhere :-D

So the bud itself also creates food for the "PLANT"


Also with this method its just so easy to arrange the branches so that you can literally get 100% bud sites in full light.