Defoliation: Hi-Yield Technique?

[ITryToGrow]

Great fucking thread Keef!

Much respect to you and all the contributors!

I've been doing this growing-business for about 6 yrs now but still consider myself very much a beginner, so I would humbly ask of your advice:

This is my current grow:

More pictures.

These are 13 WWxBB and Extreme indicas grown from seed, they've been vegged for about 7 weeks and are enjoying their first week under 12/12.

Enviro is a SecretJardin DR300W tent 10'x5', NFT-hydro with plenty of aeration and recirculation, RH and temps are good.

Lighting is 2x600 (in the hoods) and 2x400 (vertical). All MH (will switch the 600's to HPS's when most of the stretch have stopped).

I usually supercrop and trim lower branches. Clones have been taken.

What's your opinion on my grow in general and would you think I could benefit from defoliation at this stage?

Any input is more than appreciated!

Cheers,

ITTG

 

[delta9nxs]

Hi, knna, good to hear from you!

“I agree Delta, this is being like mythbusters. It seemed during long time that taken out leaves was like a grower sin.”

in the early days of learning to grow we all develop ideas and habits picked up from reading the “grow” bibles and statements on the internet. We basically just accept these ideas because the “experts” have espoused them.

If you even mentioned defoliating you automatically got a rash of folks advising everyone that it is a very bad idea, as we have seen here. Typically, these folks have never tried it.

This is just one of the issues we need to revisit and make some basic determinations on.

Up until recently I have always turned my plants daily when using side lighting. And pruned them radially to enhance this idea. Several people encouraged me to try growing the plant with just the strong side presented. I'm finding that it may actually yield better doing this. Probably something to do with auxins. The plant is very phototropic. You train it to the light. I just got 10.44 from one and it was turned during the first several weeks of flower and all of veg so it is still not demonstrating the full effect. So, to turn the plant or not to turn the plant.


“Plant height=premium light zone

My efforts at training are driven by a desire to have as many of the buds as possible finish out in the zone of premium light. That zone I will define as loosely 12"-30" beneath the lamps. Even shallower with 400w. The objective is to train all the bud to have an unobstructed exposure within that zone. Allowing plants to get much taller than about 3' only allows too much bud to fall below this zone and widens the zone populated by the buds. By widening this production zone and outstretching the lower bud, diminished returns can occur. It seems that to create the sweet spot by structuring plants to spread out horizontally within this shallow zone of premium light can increase overall production and eliminate either poorly developing buds or the regressive method of removing producing sites. I call this regressive because too many producing sites is a sure sign of over-vegging.”

Morning kiftreez, I agree with what you say here but want to say that your statement applies to plants being mostly top lit. with vertical side lighting you want to present the plant so you have a vertical face oriented towards the light. Height is really not so important here as long as you have the sweet spot of the lights centered in the plant mass. I find that hanging the lights below the tops of the plants limits stretch. It makes “square” plants. As wide as they are tall.

As the buds get more weight I let the branches sag instead of tying them up. The branches end up more or less horizontal. Exposing the inner buds to some “premium” light. I'm hoping that this combined with more extensive defoliating will increase yield.

onward

 

[k33ftr33z]

Agreed on the side lighting. The tunnel is designed as a 5' wide parabolic reflector so all the light a projected directly down. There is considerable side light though with reflective doors.

Agree also on the old books and the perpetuations of myth. I think it's the old Mel Frank or Ed Rosenthal books that everyone of my generation read as well as all subsequent authors and growers. I don't have time to reread them but it would be interesting. I know Ed has strongly, as almost personal agenda, pushed the myth. I used to read his Ask Ed for years in HTand I remember several letters pushing hard against deleafing while I had been doing it already routinely.

 

[!!!]

k33ftr33z - can you please answer my questions in reply #231 page 16. I'm about to induce 12/12 and trying this.

 

[k33ftr33z]

OK so to recap.. the basic procedure is:

At 6 inches tall, pluck off some leaves.

Do this periodically (every 2-3 weeks or when leaves get shady)

Stop and let leaves grow out before flowering and until stretch ends.

After stretch, defoliate severely (and then again after 2-3 weeks or when leaves get shady)


I have some questions but first - is the above correct?

That's basically it. You didn't mention how long you are planning a veg. How large a plant you want to finish. What is your spacing, lighting, headroom. These are important in forming a beginning to end strategy. The stretch is usually 2-3 weeks anyway so don't add too many steps or complicate things. Once you have prepped a veg plant for this treatment by a couple of deleaf cycles, your subsequent growth, whether in veg or bud will demand deleafing attention regularly. I'll scope some of your pics to get some better idea.

 

[k33ftr33z]

Just took a look at the albums. Before going any further you need to do something about that socket mount with the cardboard as a shimming material. That is not safe. The socket is made of ceramic which is heat proof to 5000deg or something for a very good reason and you have it wrapped in flammable cardboard. I do not recommend hanging bare bulbs on a chain and they should have at least 10-12 " clearance from anything combustible.

Now as far as the plants. I guess you don't have any pics of your most recent veg candidates. If they will be shaped like the rest of the albums you like them bushy so this is good for that strategy.

 

[!!!]

Thanks for the reply. I'm confused about something.

Why are we defoliating in veg at all if we'll need the leaves during the stretch? Why not have the first defoliation when stretch ends? Is it just so we don't stress the plant by having one mass defoliation after stretch, or are the benefits of deleafing in veg separate from deleafing in flowering?

i.e., we defoliate in veg for better circulation, and defoliate in flower for better bud development (along w/ better circulation)?

That cardboard clamp I whipped up is definitely not safe. I don't update my albums frequently and it is currently not being used. I have a new drain table, tent, 600w (w/ a proper reflector), fan and other toys on the way. Waiting on those before flowering.

All the plants I'm flowering soon will be bushes, but I'm switching to a perpetual cycle with more (smaller) plants on a drain table. For this upcoming setup, I will veg until close to 1'.

In the limited space I have, I'm confident that defoliating will increase yield because the LSTd 5 gallon buckets being inches apart is unkempt - a lot of shading going on (no pics of it in my album atm.)

 

[Yankee Grower]

Thanks for the reply. I'm confused about something.

Why are we defoliating in veg at all if we'll need the leaves during the stretch? Why not have the first defoliation when stretch ends?

I posted earlier and no one seemed to pick up on this. I never did any hard core pruning in veg except for cleaning up some lower growth. I waited until plants were about 2 weeks into flower, but before the stretch was over, until I hacked em up. I had nothing but fantastic results doing this in hydro. I rarely removed anything after that 'final' trim/prune.

 

[GrnMtnGrwr]

Why are we defoliating in veg at all if we'll need the leaves during the stretch? Why not have the first defoliation when stretch ends? Is it just so we don't stress the plant by having one mass defoliation after stretch, or are the benefits of deleafing in veg separate from deleafing in flowering?

I can't speak for OP, and I haven't used this method in flower, but I have used it in veg. It works great for slowing stretch, which makes for tighter nodes and more branching. Why grow more stem than you need?

 

[vwgtiron]

Week 7 of veg and 5'5" plants is not a good place to start. Not sure how big a plant you want for a finish but that is HUGE. A little confused on the setup, Seems like a indoor start with outdoor finish but you say you are forcing into 12 now June1 for outdoor flower...hmmm. Confusing. Do you know what you are doing? Is this something you have been doing for awhile. Not accusing you of being a noob. Just not getting the scenario from your description. 3-4 weeks of veg will get you plenty large plants. You may be wheel-spinning away a month of good production time in search of overly large plants with that extra month of veg.. I can't ever imagine needing 7 weeks of veg for any scenario, inside or out. Only in the case of placing as large a plant as possible outdoors in late summer would this seem logical.

Maybe I'm speculating too much, got any pics of your most recent finish.

I have just started this setup so I am finishing the first crop. here is how it works

I have about 36 small plants in the greenhouse that is totally exposed to outdoor light ( i mean bathed in it) sunrise tomorrow is at 5:06 and sunset is 8:13. I also have about 12 plants in the compound which are totally exposed outdoors. If the elements get bad I bring them into the greenhouse. I hand water daily and have a organic nutrient schedule that I follow. I also have another outbuilding (a shed that is 15x15 with 10 foot ceilings) that I use for cloning and flowering. I have a space inside the shed that has been totally enclosed in poly, vented and air movement inside going on. The plants that I am currently flowering are moved out of the shed at 7am and into the shed at 7pm. I however did start this crop indoors, hardened them off in the greenhouse and have since moved them into the compound. As I just started flowering yesterday some cheese and master kush I could post some pictures of what they look like now in veg but I am not sure that they are impressive yet. All these were started from clones. Would you like to see some pictures? This is my first outdoor grow so yes I thought I would shoot for some monsters. Wait till the serious seeds AK's start popping

 

[subrhena77]

Bigghead, You are right about your theory/experience. I have had all the old School growers tell me the same thing about the trimming and that is what I have been doing forever and they are right. Your right and anyone who says different was not taught through old school. It looks ugly at first but the results are the proof. It might be preference to keep them up for some but you were right when you said your not into this for the leaf that was funny. I dont think any of us give a crap about leaf and if you do you should just grow a house plant dont waste your time.....

 

[grapeman]

I have a set in veg atm and am giving this technique a try. So far, by bending and removing fan leaves I do notice more and much faster side branching. More shoots, more flowers IMO.

As a side note, I remove leaves on grapes vines at least 2x during a season. This helps mature the hanging fruit, and more importantly, allows light to penetrate inside the canopy. A side effect is increased shoot and lateral formations. It is a known fact that without this light inside the canopy hitting and maturing next years buds, next years crop would be greatly reduced. But this is a on a vine that is pruned every winter, like a rose bush. But this technique enhances fruit formation within next years buds. They need light to form.

So it makes sense to me that it enhances shoot and lateral growth (and therefore increases yields) on this crop, as I've seen it do on grapes for over 35 years. The difference here, on this crop, is that I should see higher yields in 60 days instead of waiting 365 days as we do on grapes.

 

[k33ftr33z]

Dolmadas

Dolmadas

I have a set in veg atm and am giving this technique a try. So far, by bending and removing fan leaves I do notice more and much faster side branching. More shoots, more flowers IMO.

As a side note, I remove leaves on grapes vines at least 2x during a season. This helps mature the hanging fruit, and more importantly, allows light to penetrate inside the canopy. A side effect is increased shoot and lateral formations. It is a known fact that without this light inside the canopy hitting and maturing next years buds, next years crop would be greatly reduced. But this is a on a vine that is pruned every winter, like a rose bush. But this technique enhances fruit formation within next years buds. They need light to form.

So it makes sense to me that it enhances shoot and lateral growth (and therefore increases yields) on this crop, as I've seen it do on grapes for over 35 years. The difference here, on this crop, is that I should see higher yields in 60 days instead of waiting 365 days as we do on grapes.

Great to hear your positive experience with defoliating.

I have never heard of doing this with grapes except to use the leaves to make dolmadas. I have a lot of grapes.

I make dolmadas wrapping brown rice, pine nuts, shredded carrots and whatever in the steamed grape leaves and baking them after brushing in olive oil and garlic.

 

[k33ftr33z]

Thanks for the reply. I'm confused about something.

Why are we defoliating in veg at all if we'll need the leaves during the stretch? Why not have the first defoliation when stretch ends? Is it just so we don't stress the plant by having one mass defoliation after stretch, or are the benefits of deleafing in veg separate from deleafing in flowering?

i.e., we defoliate in veg for better circulation, and defoliate in flower for better bud development (along w/ better circulation)?

That cardboard clamp I whipped up is definitely not safe. I don't update my albums frequently and it is currently not being used. I have a new drain table, tent, 600w (w/ a proper reflector), fan and other toys on the way. Waiting on those before flowering.

All the plants I'm flowering soon will be bushes, but I'm switching to a perpetual cycle with more (smaller) plants on a drain table. For this upcoming setup, I will veg until close to 1'.

In the limited space I have, I'm confident that defoliating will increase yield because the LSTd 5 gallon buckets being inches apart is unkempt - a lot of shading going on (no pics of it in my album atm.)

The most common misconception with defoliation is that you may be sacrificing leaf mass or something, especially in veg. This is only true for the very first leaf removal. After that the plant will have more branches, more sites and thus more leaves. These new leaves will not be like the primary fans but they ultimately add up to more leaf area as the plant grows. All this fuss over whether removing too much leaf and at what time or interval is much ado over nothing. In practice, you will quickly find out that what you have created is a leaf producing monster and for every leaf is more bud. These are not primary mainstem fan leaves being created. These are the secondary branch and bud leaves that actually build the new budsites. I caution again on beginning this at the stage you are at. Start with one plant like you said but in the meantime start to prep some in veg. Never switch up a basically successful formula completely in your learning cycle.

I have cautioned before that if plants are not absolutely in aggressive growth form, DO NOT DO THIS. How can I describe this better. That they are bulletproof, dependable, and charging with deep flat green leafing and no softness paleness, or droop to them. Peristems should nip off nice and clean with a thumbnail. All this is an indication of overall health. The ability to releaf in a matter of days. So go cautiously.

If your first trial plant does not pass this test. Do not proceed on the others.

 

[k33ftr33z]

My leaves meet that test and stand out stiffly horizontal like an erection. They nip off with little force and no twisting. The peristems are juicy and luscious. here is little to no discoloration, spotting or rust. The top growth clusters are thick with deeply furled new emergence.

 

[hopelessim]

I'm confused....????????? I'm new at this and everything I've been told up to this point is not matching up. I know I'm slow, but spell it out for me.

 

[k33ftr33z]

I have just started this setup so I am finishing the first crop. here is how it works

I have about 36 small plants in the greenhouse that is totally exposed to outdoor light ( i mean bathed in it) sunrise tomorrow is at 5:06 and sunset is 8:13. I also have about 12 plants in the compound which are totally exposed outdoors. If the elements get bad I bring them into the greenhouse. I hand water daily and have a organic nutrient schedule that I follow. I also have another outbuilding (a shed that is 15x15 with 10 foot ceilings) that I use for cloning and flowering. I have a space inside the shed that has been totally enclosed in poly, vented and air movement inside going on. The plants that I am currently flowering are moved out of the shed at 7am and into the shed at 7pm. I however did start this crop indoors, hardened them off in the greenhouse and have since moved them into the compound. As I just started flowering yesterday some cheese and master kush I could post some pictures of what they look like now in veg but I am not sure that they are impressive yet. All these were started from clones. Would you like to see some pictures? This is my first outdoor grow so yes I thought I would shoot for some monsters. Wait till the serious seeds AK's start popping

I get the scenario. I've done it similar with a retractable tarp.

If you ample space for all that sunlight you can go easy on deleafing. I caution with all this shuttling if this is your first time. My 32" plants would not take much moving around. They are massive, heavy and reach out like an octopus. They are started at 15" tall with about 8 arms. You are starting with monstrous 5'+ plants!! This could be quite unsustainable as an 8' 2lb plant doesn't make a good dance partner in mid-summer.

 

[k33ftr33z]

BTW, those of you starting like this with large plants in search of those massive yields, Keep in mind that some of these individuals in the 32" cubed profile are approaching 12 oz. and there may be potential to do a lb. Keep things manageable.

 

[one Q]

i think it's important to be careful when pulling leaves before/during stretch tho. I noticed that the branch with leaf removed doesnt shoot up as fast as the one WITH the leaf. Just be selective with what gets removed before stretch is over.

in a way you have to use your imagination to see how what you trim effects growth pattern. ie, if you strip only one side of the plant your plant maybe "heavier" on the side you left alone. not in terms of flowers but just mass.

just some pennies for thought.

 

[k33ftr33z]

i think it's important to be careful when pulling leaves before/during stretch tho. I noticed that the branch with leaf removed doesnt shoot up as fast as the one WITH the leaf. Just be selective with what gets removed before stretch is over.

in a way you have to use your imagination to see how what you trim effects growth pattern. ie, if you strip only one side of the plant your plant maybe "heavier" on the side you left alone. not in terms of flowers but just mass.

just some pennies for thought.

Some of us are removing leaves to do exactly that, control stretch. There is nothing desirable about stretch if you have limited headroom. I am not sure why anyone would want a plant to stretch unless you are outdoors.

Your description of the effects of leaf removal during stretch is spot-on and that is why I do it. Your caution is warranted to those desiring stretch.

The fact that there is a direct correlation between limiting stretch and leaf removal seems to indicate that the fans are primarily responsible for structural growth. Though in saying that, it is not like my plants are lacking structure. I have never grown such beefy stems as recently with this size individual. So are big leaves only to serve stretch. Not likely, but they are certainly dispensable in my formula.

I use defoliation in conjunction with intensive branch training and they would seem to mutually complementary. Removing leaves is done mainly to allow light penetration so the natural extension of that effort is to bend the branches out radially for even more exposure.