Defoliation: Hi-Yield Technique?

[k33ftr33z]

Participation

Participation

Wow, I am quite surprised to see the willingness to experiment. Also delighted to read of others who have been already using this technique in various ways and at various stages. Every cycle and every strain is different and unique results await the curious.

So glad to have put the naysayer stage of this thread behind us and the truly adventurous have now taken over.

Carry on. There is no science or documentation without real trials. I pity those who rely on books or expert "advice". This being intensive, boutique agriculture, it demands a constant challenging of methodology in the quest for improved results.

 

[*mistress*]

fun sci & tech thread!

fun sci & tech thread!

pruning, thinning & training are generally applied to all crops - from citrus to tomatoes to ornamentals...

any gardeners tracking de-humidification in relation to applying a thinning tech?
in imagination, generally, if plantys happy & environ ok, that planty give off ~4/5 of water applied, w/in 24-36hrs. this occur thru veins on leaves that lead to stomata...
maybe decrease in stomata & ability to transpire make planty desire to produce reproductive organs, when >leaves present.

since plantys transpire thru leaves, the method of selectively removing leaves may force plant to generate more shoots+terminal expansion - in order to produce replacement leaves, in veg - in flower to produce more flowers.

q's:

would removing 2-3 of the 5-7 blades also work, instead of removing entire leaf?

how does tech affect rh (vpd), if @ all?

 

[twrex]

q's:

would removing 2-3 of the 5-7 blades also work, instead of removing entire leaf?

how does tech affect rh (vpd), if @ all?

Yes, this! Anyone tried this yet?

 

[bs0]

pruning, thinning & training are generally applied to all crops - from citrus to tomatoes to ornamentals...

any gardeners tracking de-humidification in relation to applying a thinning tech?
in imagination, generally, if plantys happy & environ ok, that planty give off ~4/5 of water applied, w/in 24-36hrs. this occur thru veins on leaves that lead to stomata...
maybe decrease in stomata & ability to transpire make planty desire to produce reproductive organs, when >leaves present.

since plantys transpire thru leaves, the method of selectively removing leaves may force plant to generate more shoots+terminal expansion - in order to produce replacement leaves, in veg - in flower to produce more flowers.

q's:

would removing 2-3 of the 5-7 blades also work, instead of removing entire leaf?

how does tech affect rh (vpd), if @ all?

I haven't seen a difference yet, my dehuey runs almost 24/7 both before and after. For whatever that is worth. That's a hard one to nail down.

 

[twrex]

I haven't seen a difference yet, my dehuey runs almost 24/7 both before and after. For whatever that is worth. That's a hard one to nail down.

Yes, but how often do you have to drain it? Any noticeable differences in the amount of water being pulled?

 

[DIGITALHIPPY]

It won't create the bush I have described but if you have any lower buds that are blanching it will help them toughen up. Maybe you already have a substantial bush like a previous poster. Then I would say yes, you can benefit from it.

The confusion arises with the timing. If you are SOGGING and just placed your 6" tall plants into flower and decided to run with this method suddenly, that would be ill-advised. Let them leaf out.

This is not something designed to "work" That assumes some sudden or conclusive change-around of the progress or process.

I must stress that Leafing Out is a process also. It is as important as the deleafing. It is during the Releafing or Leafing Out process that you get a dramatic increase in overall bud setting.

can u reitterate that last sentance?
what i mean...
explain the point of releafing, and leafing out.
so i know when to defoliate so i can increase budsetting.

It's not so easy to see but this shows before and after a good deleaf and bend session. The spears in the center foreground are bent out radially from the center and positioned wherever there is a little space to share.

this technique would slow down (add days) to a shorter growing plant? say 8wk kush is now 9wk kush... for the plant to redistribute the hormones?

also-
i read this thread as much as i could but didnt see your suggestion for peak times to defoliate... i.e. i usualy do alot of de-leafing in preflower and flower so 1wk b4 and 2wks after. ..

you seam to wrecklessly strip leafs whenever there blocking lower growth?

in my exp. i find lolly'ng the lower growth off increases weight on top... reduces trim time at the end, AND lowers propensity for mould/rot/death

and in especialy bushy plants, the more i garden the more i realize de-leafing is very helpful. like a haircut.

 

[twrex]

can u reitterate that last sentance?
what i mean...
explain the point of releafing, and leafing out.
so i know when to defoliate so i can increase budsetting.

I believe he is referring to this part of the original post:

Leaves are removed starting in veg stage when they are about 6" tall with a couple of sets of fans. Leaves are removed again every 2-3 weeks or whenever things get a little shady.

So, instead of removing every leaf as it pops up, give it a couple of weeks to 'leaf out' or remove when things get 'too shady'. I'd imagine after doing this a few times you'd have a feel for 'too shady' and for folks new to this it would probably be best to just wait the 2-3 weeks to gain that experience.

The consensus I seem to be hearing (or at least as close to consensus as one will ever find here) is that the new leaves promote both stretch and root growth, but then after they reach a certain point they aren't as productive. Then, once they are clipped the plant has an imbalance between root-mass and above-ground parts causing it to send out hormones to trigger growth which causes buds to swell and new leaves to grow.

Examples I've found for timing:
I) every few weeks during growth
II) only after the stretch
III) only during the last few weeks during flush
IV) here and there when they're blocking lower growth or showing signs of senescence

and of course there are folks who mix/match as they find pleasing.

Hope this helps some.

disclaimer: I've never done any of this but I find it fascinating. I've recently been actively reading up on it and associated techniques and this is sort of the sum of the positive info I've gathered. There are also folks who have all sorts of reasons why this is a horrible idea, but that's been gone over enough in this thread already I feel.

 

[delta9nxs]

mythbusters

mythbusters

i just realized this is like an episode of Mythbusters. icmag needs a forum dedicated to mythbusting.

let's put this one to rest.

carry on!

 

[organiclover]

my room is a jungle right now
gonna get to plucking soon
i'll let you know how it goes
this whole root mass line of thinking makes sense to me
i always end up pruning huge amount of leaf matter off my plants regardless to promote good aeration and light penetration - but nothing like this

 

[twrex]

i just realized this is like an episode of Mythbusters. icmag needs a forum dedicated to mythbusting.

let's put this one to rest.

carry on!

I like this idea: it could be called the 'test room' or 'experimental techniques' forum.

 

[jrosek]

I like this idea: it could be called the 'test room' or 'experimental techniques' forum.

it is not an experiment anymore man.

Myself and many others who have perfected this technique have never had better results without proper stripping.
without this method 2lbs per 1k would be the goal. now it's 4lbs!

Nobody's system and grows are identical.. you people must take the time to investigate and apply the knowledge to your grows. what works best for me may not work best for you. only way to maximize is by trial and error.... it takes time but the results are tremendous once your dialed in!
Peace all

 

[twrex]

You don't need to convince me, I'm on board, this all makes sense here. A lot of folks like to see side by sides and such though, and I think it would be useful to have a place dedicated to experimentation. Not just of this method but of the many other crazy ideas that people have around here.

I know a lot of people try novel things out and often they go overlooked because it's buried in their grow thread which otherwise may look normal. This gives a place for these kinds of things to stand out a bit more and for people to say "hey guys check this out, lets see what this does" maybe even have a format similar to the infirmary where you have a common form to fill out where you describe your hypothesis, variables, controls and then as the grow goes on the results/conclusions.

 

[vwgtiron]

Week 7 of Veg

Week 7 of Veg

Jrosek
I am in week 7 of veg with
Master Kush, Power Kush, Bubba Kush, Arjans Haze, The Church, Cheese, Super Lemon Haze, Great White Shark, Hawaiian Snow and Train Wreck. I am also growing outside in a walled compound and have a greenhouse, for some smaller plants. I would like to know if you have tried this technique outdoors or not. I also am totally organic brewing my own teas. All my plants are about 5'5" and I have just created a flowering room that I will be moving the plants into for 12 hours a day to force outdoor flower.

Okay I would like to offer up one of my cheese to see if this could be done outside also. Any pointers?

 

[jrosek]

I have done it on out door grows with great results. more to get light penetration to the inner parts of the plants.
it takes practice man.. do your research and apply this method slowly until you get the idea. good luck

 

[k33ftr33z]

pruning, thinning & training are generally applied to all crops - from citrus to tomatoes to ornamentals...

q's:

would removing 2-3 of the 5-7 blades also work, instead of removing entire leaf?

how does tech affect rh (vpd), if @ all?

A's:

Removing blades is fine in a limited fashion if you are not comfortable with wholesale leaf removal. This could get a little ridiculous and tedious. I 'll remove hundreds of leaves from a full size plant. Trying to selectively remove blades on hundreds or thousands of leaves is clearly impossible. Some posters have fretted over best removal point. Maybe that is an issue in the humid climes where stem rot could take hold, but here I just pluck it. Faster the better. I have never seen any rot take hold from a leaf removal whether it was plucked right at the stem or leaving a hanging stub of peristem.

RH is controlled/reduced by leaf removal, especially if you are in a tightly confined space. It mainly allows better air circulation and "soaking" between contacting leaves. By soaking I mean wetting that occurs when leaves rest against one another. In this arid climate this is not too much problem but those who suffer in choking humidity in other regions should take note.

 

[k33ftr33z]

Jrosek
I am in week 7 of veg with
Master Kush, Power Kush, Bubba Kush, Arjans Haze, The Church, Cheese, Super Lemon Haze, Great White Shark, Hawaiian Snow and Train Wreck. I am also growing outside in a walled compound and have a greenhouse, for some smaller plants. I would like to know if you have tried this technique outdoors or not. I also am totally organic brewing my own teas. All my plants are about 5'5" and I have just created a flowering room that I will be moving the plants into for 12 hours a day to force outdoor flower.

Okay I would like to offer up one of my cheese to see if this could be done outside also. Any pointers?

Week 7 of veg and 5'5" plants is not a good place to start. Not sure how big a plant you want for a finish but that is HUGE. A little confused on the setup, Seems like a indoor start with outdoor finish but you say you are forcing into 12 now June1 for outdoor flower...hmmm. Confusing. Do you know what you are doing? Is this something you have been doing for awhile. Not accusing you of being a noob. Just not getting the scenario from your description. 3-4 weeks of veg will get you plenty large plants. You may be wheel-spinning away a month of good production time in search of overly large plants with that extra month of veg.. I can't ever imagine needing 7 weeks of veg for any scenario, inside or out. Only in the case of placing as large a plant as possible outdoors in late summer would this seem logical.

Maybe I'm speculating too much, got any pics of your most recent finish.

 

[k33ftr33z]

it is not an experiment anymore man.

Myself and many others who have perfected this technique have never had better results without proper stripping.
without this method 2lbs per 1k would be the goal. now it's 4lbs!

Nobody's system and grows are identical.. you people must take the time to investigate and apply the knowledge to your grows. what works best for me may not work best for you. only way to maximize is by trial and error.... it takes time but the results are tremendous once your dialed in!
Peace all

Well said, For me this is far beyond experimental. Each grower must develop their own comfort with the technique. Best time for a beginner to experiment is in veg when there is nothing at stake than just another clone. We're not looking for comparisons to leafed out plants except for yield in controlled conditions. Leaves are deceiving. Surely a grandly leafed out specimen looks better to the untrained eye before stripping off all that foliage.

This technique is for managing crowding and maximizing yield in limited space(ie. indoor grows) All indoor grows qualify as limited in space unless you have deep pockets and like paying for wasted electricity.

 

[k33ftr33z]

One of the unmentioned benefits of defoliation is that the fans are removed long before harvest. This saves removing them during trim. I'd rather not have all those worthless fans polluting the nice K33fy bud leaf that gets tumbled for the trikes.

My plants are nearly trimmed by the time harvest day arrives.

 

[k33ftr33z]

can u reitterate that last sentance?
what i mean...
explain the point of releafing, and leafing out.
so i know when to defoliate so i can increase budsetting.



this technique would slow down (add days) to a shorter growing plant? say 8wk kush is now 9wk kush... for the plant to redistribute the hormones?

also-
i read this thread as much as i could but didnt see your suggestion for peak times to defoliate... i.e. i usualy do alot of de-leafing in preflower and flower so 1wk b4 and 2wks after. ..

you seam to wrecklessly strip leafs whenever there blocking lower growth?

in my exp. i find lolly'ng the lower growth off increases weight on top... reduces trim time at the end, AND lowers propensity for mould/rot/death

and in especialy bushy plants, the more i garden the more i realize de-leafing is very helpful. like a haircut.

Sounds like you have a good handle on the technique. Keep it up.

I'd not describe my stripping as "reckless", rather I'd call it aggressive. Reckless would suggest that they are removed without regard to result. "Aggressive" suggests I do not sweat the outcome. I am confident of the outcome.

The earlier you begin a defoliation regimen the less chance for any negative results. Best to start in veg as this is about restructuring the plant to be more compact yet have as many or more budsites than a leafy specimen of the same age.

 

[bigghead]

they are finally starting to believe. fantastic job getting the facts out. most of us that swear by this method get out debated and give up. you have successfully answered the the longest debate in growing TO TRIM LEAVES OR NOT. every plant gets individual attention. I say we brand this the K3 method.