Curious on how many switched back

[FlowerFarmer]

What are the Par readings from a bare bulb as compared to a shielded lamp? Anyone got those figures?

I like to spend time on IC because I like to play around with different methods and styles of growing. It's fun and is a rewarding hobby. Honestly in my world any numbers are good numbers.

I want to toy with some new DE fixtures so I'll likely be playing more in trays horizontally. There are plenty of ways to get from A to B. Much of one's success has a lot to do with their style & care of growing.. as evident of fine people who share their gardens here.


It mysteriously became a dick measuring contest DrFever because you bait it as one.


I really want to know what this garden(s) yields even though I really just enjoy looking at it. In the end unless a majority of variables are identical talking yeild is rather fruitless. At least in the fashion that this thread run course.
Yield per everything?

 

[Grow4Flow]

FF,
Is this pic sideways or is there bud growing on the ceiling? Lol

Also, gavita DE is the shit! My Last PPK grow included vegging under two 600w bulbs with adjusta wings and theN dropping 1 and finishing under a single 600w, I ended up with just under 2# with two plants

 

[FlowerFarmer]

Yea, that's a horizontal grow...maybe DrFever can /end thread. Bare bulb rule all else drool.

lol, no that's that wicked vert wall that somebody else posted (a guy from instagram ?) with your head turned sideways. haha.

What really are we comparing here? Style of growing!
High numbers SOG always will take the cake in my book. Vertical gives you more square footage to do so.


In any sense.. I like Vert. My 1st attempt in PPK gave me these gals that I got nearly 2lb/per 1k of light. This was with old ass lamps using 4 1k and 4 600s in the corners - 7 plants. Plants nearly drowned of over-watering because the coco plugged up my PPKs yet I still managed to pull down successfully at a better return then my horizontal attempts.

I'm far from an expert grower.. but vert has been easier for me to hit better yields then I was hitting previously. I'll continue to experiment in both vertical & horizontal gardens.. because I like to. Got some top feed coco w/ trays and adjust a wings going now and curious how it's going to do. (in addition to my sealed tree room)> I'm just amended coco in there right now re-finding strains, but will be using PPK once I pick a strain and mono-crop it.

Gave my buddy my old daystar acs (that I always only seemed to get 1.2lb/1k from) so I like to pop in on him to see how he's doing. I really like adjust a wings and the ease of flood tables so I'd really like to gear back to hydro/mediumless with higher plant counts and some quick fun SOG runs to make use of winter months and any space that can be grown... .. while staying vert/trees in my sealed space and hopefully developing a little rhythm.

600/750 DE gavitas over these would be fun.

 

[Sqydro]

Dam how in the hell did my reply go into LSWM post lol but it did its not about who has the bigger DICK
its really what we all want and that is best possible yield and like pab mentioned you can throw all the Vert rule of thumbs out the door cause its really not happening cause if it was as a cash cropper here i would of jumped ship
and yea my 5 plant scrog on bottom of page turned out to 4.75 pounds 2000 watts then continues to a 12 plant scrog 3 k which put me into the 7 pound mark
Horizontal
were talking 12 plants folks And in all honesty i don't think i can find a 3000 vert grow 12 plants and compare yields but i will go look now and see what i can find

really youve been swinging your dick for the last 4 pages from what i can see, were all here for the same thing mate

 

[LSWM]

What are the Par readings from a bare bulb as compared to a shielded lamp? Anyone got those figures?

I actually tried looking for real #'s when I posted my vert vs horizontal lumen/sqft analysis a few pages back. All I could find is the general lumen output graphs/spreadsheets from various bulbs at various distances.

I'd be very interested to know. My numbers could be completely off, but I doubt the comparison would change much. The math is correct, the starting points may not be.

 

[LSWM]

if I were you I would pick a method and work it till you get the 1gpw. if you switched from horizontal before that, you have not really given it a proper chance.

I've picked my method. It's vert.

The only reason I don't run it exclusively is due to random strain searching, differing plant sizes, and general randomness. It's easier to top a plant and throw it next to one half the size with Horizontal. With Vert you suddenly get stuck creating shelves to keep things filled in and even, which then suddenly makes dealing with runoff a huge issue.

As I already said in this thread: I would put $$ on it I break 1GPW with the round I have currently ~3 weeks into flower.

 

[RetroGrow]

Verts rule. Cheaper, brighter, higher ceilings, cooler, great for stacking when growing tall sativas. Fat buds from top to bottom. No popcorn. And no clunky, ugly hoods to bang my head on. I still keep one hood with 1000 Watt metal halide to blast my seedlings. Have gotten 2GPW on stacked vertical Sativa grow, with two month veg in 9X5 room with 10 foot ceilings. If you let it veg, Super Lemon Haze gets like a huge Xmas tree, if you have the height to accommodate it's propensity to grow tall. Same with SSH, or Critical Jack.

 

[FlowerFarmer]

Here's another total rocking wall....this one by Maina.

8k - 20 plants in the below pic I believe.
Killing it dude.

 

[DrFever]

vertical bulbs give you a much LARGER canopy area (potentially) than a horizontal bulb would. This IS a fact that cannot be argued with.

However, larger surface area does NOT necesarily mean MORE yield. If yield were a purely a function of increased canopy size, then the best grows would be 20x20 400watt bulb grows with 1000 plants. Obviously, this would never work because the INTENSITY of the light would be greatly diminished. this is why, many jedi growers continue to kill it with horizontal as opposed to vertical. Horizontal lights aim MORE intense light at plants than a vertical setup. This also cannot be disputed. Which yields more? It depends...

Large yields and efficiency often come down canopy management and environmental control. There is a balance between canopy AREA and light intensity that greatly effect yields. This can be messed up or done well with both with vert, horizontal, or a combo of both. Just because someone doesn't yield as well with Horizontal as they do with vertical DOES NOT make this true for everyone.
Heath robinson, the internet legend, and now seed vender (not lending much to his credibility anyway) has journaled BOTH flat and vertical grows. If there were a clear cut 'Vert is better than horizontal' fact, why would he even bother with flat grows?

Why do jedi growers continue to kill it with both methods if there is ONE superior method? Why is it that all over the internet on the major sites, many who have jumped to vert grows cannot live up to the hype despite elaborate setups that cost a ton, and require a ton of maintenance

On another site, there was a journal side by side from a good grower with a horizontal vs vert setup. The results were NOT conclusive as to which method did better but it tells me alot that his next grow he opted for horizontal.

 

[DrFever]

Here's another total rocking wall....this one by Maina.

8k - 20 plants in the below pic I believe.
Killing it dude.

View Image

Very impressive 8 k 20 plants wondered what he yielded with 8 k i would probably do 4 room sog 76 plants in each room 2 k one mh one hps per room vegged 5 weeks with training purple kush and yield 7 pounds per rooms
76 plants x 4 so 304 plants
2000 watts per room
7 pounds x 4 = 28 pound harvest i don't think there is 112 pounds of wet bud in that picture but who knows ?? its Vert one can only expect exaggerated numbers its the internet hahaha
here couple of pics couple week old babys could you imagine 304 of them for another 3 weeks then plant thein in 34 gallon final totes then flower power lol another pic of plant 35 days vegged from clone and going into flower lol 304 of them dam i got to fire it up another picture of one plant top view with lots of tops i just dont got the pictures from years ago sogs would ove loved to post them thousands of buds in each room 40 tops per with all lower plants pruned 5 week vegged

 

[siftedunity]

I've picked my method. It's vert.

The only reason I don't run it exclusively is due to random strain searching, differing plant sizes, and general randomness. It's easier to top a plant and throw it next to one half the size with Horizontal. With Vert you suddenly get stuck creating shelves to keep things filled in and even, which then suddenly makes dealing with runoff a huge issue.

As I already said in this thread: I would put $$ on it I break 1GPW with the round I have currently ~3 weeks into flower.

Yes I wish you luck and hope you do but still doesnt prove that its a higher yielding method. Especially since most people are hitting that or more with horizontal lighting.
Did you see my pics?

 

[siftedunity]

Verts rule. Cheaper, brighter, higher ceilings, cooler, great for stacking when growing tall sativas. Fat buds from top to bottom. No popcorn. And no clunky, ugly hoods to bang my head on. I still keep one hood with 1000 Watt metal halide to blast my seedlings. Have gotten 2GPW on stacked vertical Sativa grow, with two month veg in 9X5 room with 10 foot ceilings. If you let it veg, Super Lemon Haze gets like a huge Xmas tree, if you have the height to accommodate it's propensity to grow tall. Same with SSH, or Critical Jack.

Have you got pics of the 70oz from 1k of lighting?

 

[JointOperation]

its funny too. because light movers suck with horizontal.. but if u have a light mover in a room vertically.. its wayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy better..

I used a 400w vertically on a mover.. in a 3.5x6x6 and got 1 and a half LBS off a 400 with an OLD Homedepot BULB.

 

[LSWM]

Let me explain the light intensity bit more clearly.

Let's for simplicity sake say that a 1k HPS bulb emits 100,000 lumens. At 2' away that is 1/4 the intensity now 25'000 lumens. Let's ASSUME that the reflector reflects 100% of light and none is lost due to reflection or distance. That means that you are getting 50,000 lumens at 2' distance over a 4x4 tray. 50,000 lumens in 16 sq ft.

A vert barebulb at 18" will be at just under 1/2 of intensity of 100,000. 44,000 lumens @ 18". A 1.5' x 4' cylinder has a lateral surface area of 37.7 sq ft. That means you are getting 44,000 lumens to 37.7 sq ft.

What this means is that Vert provides better light coverage to a greater area than a horizontal grow. Even a 5x5 tray will only be 25 sq ft. And it's only a 20% increase in lumens at that distance, and that is ASSUMING that the reflector is 100% efficient, which they are not.

vertical bulbs give you a much LARGER canopy area (potentially) than a horizontal bulb would. This IS a fact that cannot be argued with.

However, larger surface area does NOT necesarily mean MORE yield. If yield were a purely a function of increased canopy size, then the best grows would be 20x20 400watt bulb grows with 1000 plants. Obviously, this would never work because the INTENSITY of the light would be greatly diminished. this is why, many jedi growers continue to kill it with horizontal as opposed to vertical. Horizontal lights aim MORE intense light at plants than a vertical setup. This also cannot be disputed. Which yields more? It depends...

Large yields and efficiency often come down canopy management and environmental control. There is a balance between canopy AREA and light intensity that greatly effect yields. This can be messed up or done well with both with vert, horizontal, or a combo of both. Just because someone doesn't yield as well with Horizontal as they do with vertical DOES NOT make this true for everyone.

 

[who dat is]

I haven't converted back since going vertical but there is no possible way for me to even run horizontal right now with my current grow space. I haven't been tempted to go back anyways, I sold my one hood and only bought ballasts after that. Vertical just makes more sense to me though. Horizontal is too 2 dimensional where as vertical you are taking advantage of the 3rd dimension, height. Stack multiple layers of plants in a stadium or double doughnut or.....there are so many possibilities. To each their own though, I'm not going to sit here and tell somebody else how to run their grow. You can always make suggestions though...

 

[papaduc]

Have you got pics of the 70oz from 1k of lighting?

.... I'll say, "strongly doubt it"... ahem...

 

[LSWM]

Did you see my pics?

I did but really it doesn't matter. You were the one asking for pics, I was just turning it around on you.

Sorry for the runaround bud. Let's grow some dank!

 

[papaduc]

This is a really good debate for me. I like the numbers bouncing round because it gives real transparency to the subject which would take a long long time for someone with the same questions to find by searching through numerous threads of growers using both styles.

I actually also don't think the metaphorical dick swinging is even that bad a thing, provided it's all done in the right way and nobody's a prick about it.

If some people want to engage in it, fine, I mean actually, when you break it down, are we not being a little pretentious by talking about competition and comparison as if it's a bad thing?

Ok there's a way to put your point across, but what is every competition of any kind?

When people try and grow the biggest pumpkins, or best tomatoes in show, or win the bud shot of the month competition, are we not all showing off our skills? Do we not want to be recognised as good or better at something?

I think there's a respectful way to go about competition and I certainly don't think competition itself is in any way a bad thing. Be respectful, be cool, be straight, but be fucking good... and if your numbers are better than the next guy's, be proud. If they're not, be receptive and learn. But being competitive is never a bad thing and should not be frowned upon, because we all are, to some degree. Just that some people try to hide it behind a false mask of liberalism and better nature, which isn't better natured at all. Give me a straight forward and honest competitive fucker over some well-to-do pleasant joe slimeball any day of the week.

Anyway....

The reason I'm here is to get the numbers out. See what's what.

One of the big perceived selling points of vert growing is that it yields better, or is a more efficient way of growing. I grow both ways and am very open minded about it all. But having seen results from both methods, it's my experience that this simply isn't true. Not in all cases anyway.

This isn't about getting people to grow one way or the other, or drop one method in favour of a different one. There's no accounting for taste, and one man's sugar is the next man's shite. It'll always be the way.

But.. sometimes it's just numbers that dictate, and someone's decision might be made solely based on that. They mightn't have a preference of style, but just want the best numbers. In this case threads like this are invaluable because they can just look at the real time results and view the opposing arguments. Most importantly, they can take the opinions expressed in each post with a pinch of salt, while they use the numbers in those posts to make their own decisions.

I think when we look over the posts in this thread so far... as things stand, we can say that for whatever reason, the idea that vertical growing yields more than horizontal is not backed up by the stats.

 

[papaduc]

Flower farmer, it's funny you flipped that photo on it's side because that's exactly what I did yesterday when I saw it, to compare it with mine.

When you look at the number of bulbs in the picture, and see how much of the canopy each one takes care of, then you factor in the amount of work involved in that setup, plus the numbers, plus the size of each bud in the screen, which is overall more efficient out of these two?

This is a bud from the very back corner of that canopy, and it is a foot long.

 

[LSWM]

I feel you papaduc, I really do. I think that the biggest advantage to Vert is better use of space. You flipped that picture, but he's got nugs on the top and the bottom. You only have them on the bottom in you horizontal grow.

With vert you can fit literally twice the sqft of trellising AND still be able to move around. We can go back to the 8x8x8 room argument again, but I think it's clear that an 8x8 room won't fit 4 4x4 trays and be usable. In that same space you can fit TWICE as much Vert trellising in AND be able to work around it.