Reign of Terror
Active member
Time2Unite said:
yeah i know that, DJ shorts stuff is f5 but isnt IBL.
that wasnt the point i was makin anyways
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Crossing a IBL with a Landrace?
- Thread starter Closet Funk
- Start date
yeah i know that, DJ shorts stuff is f5 but isnt IBL.
that wasnt the point i was makin anyways
Alright now fellas. 
G
Guest
Is it true or isn't it? You are contradicting yourself in this statement.
Properly selfed seeds are not the product of hermaphrodites. Selfed seeds do not always produce hermies and if proplerly done will rarely have them.
Go read a book on plant breeding and you will find that selfing is used as a step in creating true breeding IBLs.
dude, S stands for selfing
no matter what for an S1 you need a hermie to pollinate whatever plant your wanting to pollinate , but when it produces seed and you grow them out it doesn't mean they will produce hermie plants...thats what he's saying.
i've never heard of selfing as a step in creating true breeding ibls, i'm no big breeder but i've never heard of that one ever.....are you sure you don't have inbreeding and selfing mixed up?
no matter what for an S1 you need a hermie to pollinate whatever plant your wanting to pollinate , but when it produces seed and you grow them out it doesn't mean they will produce hermie plants...thats what he's saying.
i've never heard of selfing as a step in creating true breeding ibls, i'm no big breeder but i've never heard of that one ever.....are you sure you don't have inbreeding and selfing mixed up?
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G
Guest
I'm well aware what S stands for.
What I mean by properly selfed plants... Stress the hell out of a mother plant to ensure that it is not prone to hermaphrodism. You would then reverse the sex of this plant by using either STS or colloidal silver. The reason that selfing (feminized seed), gets such a bad rap is because breeders like Soma and Dutch Passion create their feminized lines (selfed), by stressing a plant to produce male pollen sacks instead of using non hermie prone plants.
Here is just one quote from a well known plant breeder, Allard:
Inbred Line A line produced by continued inbreeding. In plant breeding, a nearly homozygous line usually originating by continued self-fertilization, accompanied by selection.
It is believed though I haven't seen any first hand evidence, that taking cannabis beyond the S1 generation is when problems arise due to cannabis being a dioecious plant.
I only jumped in here when I read this:
Which implies that all selfed seeds are hermie. Like I said, this just isn't true.
Selfing is comonly used in corn breeding.
What I mean by properly selfed plants... Stress the hell out of a mother plant to ensure that it is not prone to hermaphrodism. You would then reverse the sex of this plant by using either STS or colloidal silver. The reason that selfing (feminized seed), gets such a bad rap is because breeders like Soma and Dutch Passion create their feminized lines (selfed), by stressing a plant to produce male pollen sacks instead of using non hermie prone plants.
Here is just one quote from a well known plant breeder, Allard:
Inbred Line A line produced by continued inbreeding. In plant breeding, a nearly homozygous line usually originating by continued self-fertilization, accompanied by selection.
It is believed though I haven't seen any first hand evidence, that taking cannabis beyond the S1 generation is when problems arise due to cannabis being a dioecious plant.
I only jumped in here when I read this:
Which implies that all selfed seeds are hermie. Like I said, this just isn't true.
Selfing is comonly used in corn breeding.
Reign of Terror
Active member
firewalker, i mean seeds created by a hermie. i didnt go all indepth with my decrptions cause i though it would easy to catch on but they were actually confusing to some i guess. my fault.
Reign
Reign
G
Guest
I'll leave it to the kids that haven't any experience then. Take care.
Daytripper
Member
mace_ecam said:
So a hermie must carry intersex genes, right.
FireWalker is talking about first testing plants to select only females that do not carry intersexual genes.
Stress testing for intersex genes is a breeders method for genetic screening when no lab tests for intersex genes are available.
Now if a plant has no intersex genes how can it be a hermie?
Now the selected females that do not have any intersex genes are treated with a chemical that shuts down female hormone signals, allowing the plant to produce pollen that has no intersex genes.
Now lacking intersex genes the progeny will not be hermies as they lack the intersex genes needed to express hermaphordism.
Seems to be some confusion as to the difference between a natural hermie that carries intersex genes .........and a plant lacking intersex genes from whom pollen production must be stimulated by chemical means.
Since the defination hermie requires intersex genes , pollen produced by plants lacking intersex genes can not be hermie.
pollen from a female intersex = hermie pollen
pollen from a female lacking intersex genes = non hermie female pollen
FireWalker Allard says F1s selfed are equal to F3s as far inbreeding coeffecient goes so logic dictates an F2 selfed is equal to an F5.
Cannabis does not inbreed as easily Sam_Skunkman has said in the past that cannabis is very weak at S4, I imagine they could have fertility problems due to inbreeding preventing going to S5.
I believe that selfing cannabis lacking intersex genes to create IBLs, holds great potential for improved hybrid seed production.
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Are you sure that there are "intersex genes"?
So far, any plant will become a hermie if treated with STS, meaning any plant can grow both reproduction organs. They all know how to do it, it just needs a trigger
But as you can tell from your own expirience, not every plant will be a hermie. By making up things you don't get more believable, the definition of a hermie is that is has both genders, no matter how it was induced, end of story.
Nope, FireWalker talks about some implications that were never made by anyone, all that was stated was that S1 is the offspring of a hermie, and thats a fact
doesn't mean that the offspring will herm, that was never stated.
G
Guest
Nope, FireWalker talks about some implications that were never made by anyone, all that was stated was that S1 is the offspring of a hermie, and thats a fact
I got into it because of this broad and general statement, which can be taken as hermie offspring. So, the implication was in fact made.
Properly, S= selfed generation, which can sometimes result in hermaphrodite offspring (if the breeder hasn't done proper testing).
What would you call, for example, a male plant that fully reverses to a female naturally over the course of its life?
Daytripper
Member
Are you sure that there are "intersex genes"?
So far, any plant will become a hermie if treated with STS, meaning any plant can grow both reproduction organs. They all know how to do it, it just needs a trigger But as you can tell from your own expirience, not every plant will be a hermie.
Yes I am sure there are non sex genes - autosomes that play a role in sex expression of cannabis. Would you like references?
2 types of triggers.
1 genetic - genes. They get turned on by environmental que's.
2 chemical - acting on hormones.
Would you like to know how many genes are involved, its additive you know?
By making up things you don't get more believable, the definition of a hermie is that is has both genders, no matter how it was induced, end of story.
There is no official word for pollen from a female that lacks intersex genes. so I refer to it as " non hermie female pollen" indicating the female does not carry intersex genes.
Here I was going to even tell you how many genes are involved in hermies. No spoon of NFO for you, Next.
What would you call, for example, a male plant that fully reverses to a female naturally over the course of its life?
I have several books and many papers on cannabis sexuality. I can find no reference to this "natural permanment sex reversal" in any cannabis or hemp research. This does occur in some "non cannabis" plants like hops but I have never come across it in real life or scientific cannabis research papers.
The only reference to this is on stoner site's.I can only find references to three people who have witnessed this and none with pictures or documented proof other than their word.Frank, Rosenthal and 3LB.
Intersexes and Reversals Much more common than abnormally formed flowers is for the plant's sex to be confused. One may find an isolated male flower or two; or there may be many clusters of male flowers on an otherwise female plant, or vice versa. These plants are called intersexes (also hermaphrodites or monoecious plants). Intersexes due to environment causes differ from natural hermaphrodite in having random distributions and proportions of male and female flowers.
In more extreme cases, a plant may completely reverse sex. - Frank and Rosenthal
I don't know what to call it miracle hermi, supernatural herm or bullshit.
So far, any plant will become a hermie if treated with STS, meaning any plant can grow both reproduction organs. They all know how to do it, it just needs a trigger
But as you can tell from your own expirience, not every plant will be a hermie.Yes I am sure there are non sex genes - autosomes that play a role in sex expression of cannabis. Would you like references?
2 types of triggers.
1 genetic - genes. They get turned on by environmental que's.
2 chemical - acting on hormones.
Would you like to know how many genes are involved, its additive you know?
By making up things you don't get more believable, the definition of a hermie is that is has both genders, no matter how it was induced, end of story.
There is no official word for pollen from a female that lacks intersex genes. so I refer to it as " non hermie female pollen" indicating the female does not carry intersex genes.
Here I was going to even tell you how many genes are involved in hermies. No spoon of NFO for you, Next.
What would you call, for example, a male plant that fully reverses to a female naturally over the course of its life?
I have several books and many papers on cannabis sexuality. I can find no reference to this "natural permanment sex reversal" in any cannabis or hemp research. This does occur in some "non cannabis" plants like hops but I have never come across it in real life or scientific cannabis research papers.
The only reference to this is on stoner site's.I can only find references to three people who have witnessed this and none with pictures or documented proof other than their word.Frank, Rosenthal and 3LB.
Intersexes and Reversals Much more common than abnormally formed flowers is for the plant's sex to be confused. One may find an isolated male flower or two; or there may be many clusters of male flowers on an otherwise female plant, or vice versa. These plants are called intersexes (also hermaphrodites or monoecious plants). Intersexes due to environment causes differ from natural hermaphrodite in having random distributions and proportions of male and female flowers.
In more extreme cases, a plant may completely reverse sex. - Frank and Rosenthal
I don't know what to call it miracle hermi, supernatural herm or bullshit.
I'm thinking that a huge percentage of cannabis plants posess intersex genes. Deep chunk is a variety most consider to be pretty resistant to being hermaphroditic yet I got 4 out of 4 males recently to produce female flowers. I took them out of the 12/12 room put them outside and pruned them heavily to prevent an overabundance of pollen. Lo and behold they all started to produce large amounts of female flowers of unknown fertility.
Firewalker said:
I think you misunderstood this poorly explained definition of ibl. I'm fairly sure when allard said self pollination he meant in the terms of using one plant from the line to pollinate another plant from the same line. Its funny I brought up using sts to stabilize a hybrid a while ago and noone though this was interesting. Though I don't believe selfing is the best method I believe that using sts eliminates much of the guesswork in selecting a pollen donor due to many of the female floral traits of a male being unknown. However if one used female pollen the floral traits would be known not only allowing a better selection of traits from the male but also creating more homozygosity with each generation thus decreasing the amount of inbreeding required to stabilize desirable traits and decreasing the amount of unexpected negative effects associated with extraneous inbreeding. I guess I'm just ahead of my time. j/k.
Jim Morrisson once said "five to one baby, one to five, no-one here gets out alive, you dig yours baby, i'll dig mine-lets get together one more time..."
Someone was telling me yesterday he has grown NL and it's a very sturdy potent killa strain, easy and fast to grow indoors or out....
These boys out here just trade and give seeds back and forth, kinda like cigarrettes in the boys room at school.. No big deal. Spoiled cali kids huh? FTdumb shit we like it that way.. So i kinda doubt these came from washington or a seedbank..
They are classic afghani charecteristic looking seeds, heavily spotted and mildly striped- huge round crater where it was attached to the plant, reddish tint to the rim of the crater, Not the odd shaped UFO saucer looking ones with a crease running down the shell ... (heat and dry sucking the shell to the seed embryo Is my best estimation of this-- commonly accociated with what some may consider the "kifiristani" variety....None of that action....
Id say by looking at the seeds they are afghani indica dom, or pure afghani indica...
I should have them tested soon, so will know more then....
There is a reason people have called me "felix the cat" out there in the "real world"
I got all kinda stuff in my little bag of tricks.....
Like the g-13 im running is real, and definetly has the kifiristani character I mentioned.
And most definetly the bushiest densest indica pheno I have seen....
It's july and my ones revegged since feb or march are still under 3 foot, and getting close to 3 foot wide now.....One is still wanting to flower.....The mutant rages and splits into many directions... Im stoked about those "giftseeds" for sure.....
She has had me so exited im on the edge of my seat for over a year now, Im up to 33 years experience and nothing has touched this mutant in 33 years.Not what i have grown, not even... Im talking growth character and virility. The smoke can only be matched. Nothing In california I ever smoked could beat this afghani in full flower done properly with a good cure, only compare to... Yeah man glue yourself to the floor with this one at 30% amber. Wake and bakes put you back to bed without a doubt...
Nothing have i seen that can do that to me... But the g-does....
(P.s. the ATF from the modesto club came close, but id have to say it just really stony, not crippling ....)
WTF do i know im sitting here smokin mexi scwag, but it's green and that was 30 bucks i really needed for gas. So i had to get something that would last..
But it actually has a nice high- stony without a burnout body high...
I told them too "does it have a burnout?- I got too much to do to deal with a burnout"
Last week it was columbian red i scored a sack of, same range and type of high.
But the lumbo lays you back in the lazy chair- wanting to read the paper or do something constructive...But too stoned to make the first move...(L.O.L.)
Thats why i like crossing lumbo to indica, the combo of a heavy sativa and heavy indica is hard to beat....
Wait until margerita's re-do comes around. Margerita is something else....
Smelling a margerita with two or three g's of hash and a tablespoon of gasoline in it would be about the best discription.. Very "citrus/fuel" like, but limes and gasoline, with an earthy hashy base....
(Where am i?, WTF was i talking about?, where is my brain? ," Son this is your brain on drugs" sizzzle sizzle sizzle, hey were we going somewhere today? Oh yeah IC mag- I can see it on the browser now...)
Seriously i got a little pipe and we smoked a couple bowls of "margerita" , On a busy streetcorner while selling tiedyes ... Neither one of us said a word for 2-3 hours.
A pic of my afghani's
Glued to our chairs in an opium like dream state... No kidding....
How's the high on the various Nl's? Im researching traits for future projects BTW...
tiedye420
Someone was telling me yesterday he has grown NL and it's a very sturdy potent killa strain, easy and fast to grow indoors or out....
These boys out here just trade and give seeds back and forth, kinda like cigarrettes in the boys room at school.. No big deal. Spoiled cali kids huh? FTdumb shit we like it that way.. So i kinda doubt these came from washington or a seedbank..
They are classic afghani charecteristic looking seeds, heavily spotted and mildly striped- huge round crater where it was attached to the plant, reddish tint to the rim of the crater, Not the odd shaped UFO saucer looking ones with a crease running down the shell ... (heat and dry sucking the shell to the seed embryo Is my best estimation of this-- commonly accociated with what some may consider the "kifiristani" variety....None of that action....
Id say by looking at the seeds they are afghani indica dom, or pure afghani indica...
I should have them tested soon, so will know more then....
There is a reason people have called me "felix the cat" out there in the "real world"
I got all kinda stuff in my little bag of tricks.....
Like the g-13 im running is real, and definetly has the kifiristani character I mentioned.
And most definetly the bushiest densest indica pheno I have seen....
It's july and my ones revegged since feb or march are still under 3 foot, and getting close to 3 foot wide now.....One is still wanting to flower.....The mutant rages and splits into many directions... Im stoked about those "giftseeds" for sure.....
She has had me so exited im on the edge of my seat for over a year now, Im up to 33 years experience and nothing has touched this mutant in 33 years.Not what i have grown, not even... Im talking growth character and virility. The smoke can only be matched. Nothing In california I ever smoked could beat this afghani in full flower done properly with a good cure, only compare to... Yeah man glue yourself to the floor with this one at 30% amber. Wake and bakes put you back to bed without a doubt...
Nothing have i seen that can do that to me... But the g-does....
(P.s. the ATF from the modesto club came close, but id have to say it just really stony, not crippling ....)
WTF do i know im sitting here smokin mexi scwag, but it's green and that was 30 bucks i really needed for gas. So i had to get something that would last..
But it actually has a nice high- stony without a burnout body high...
I told them too "does it have a burnout?- I got too much to do to deal with a burnout"
Last week it was columbian red i scored a sack of, same range and type of high.
But the lumbo lays you back in the lazy chair- wanting to read the paper or do something constructive...But too stoned to make the first move...(L.O.L.)
Thats why i like crossing lumbo to indica, the combo of a heavy sativa and heavy indica is hard to beat....
Wait until margerita's re-do comes around. Margerita is something else....
Smelling a margerita with two or three g's of hash and a tablespoon of gasoline in it would be about the best discription.. Very "citrus/fuel" like, but limes and gasoline, with an earthy hashy base....
(Where am i?, WTF was i talking about?, where is my brain? ," Son this is your brain on drugs" sizzzle sizzle sizzle, hey were we going somewhere today? Oh yeah IC mag- I can see it on the browser now...)
Seriously i got a little pipe and we smoked a couple bowls of "margerita" , On a busy streetcorner while selling tiedyes ... Neither one of us said a word for 2-3 hours.
A pic of my afghani's
Glued to our chairs in an opium like dream state... No kidding....
How's the high on the various Nl's? Im researching traits for future projects BTW...
tiedye420
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Zam
Just spotted your post and it struck me...
Selving and femmin I played around with in 1999, quite a bit actually...
Femminised seed is not good to breed from, selving also. each generation of filial breeding has possibilities of hermaphroditic behavior increasing or decreasing...
For me hermies aren't such a problem indoors- I remove them. Usually at 2-3 months old.
Outdoors after growing a plant all season, especially a thai which refuses to flower in time. And then have them go hermie is devastating....
I still have strains and genepools from selections made of phenotypes acccociated with the pstock of the femms and selves.... I was experimenting, as i like to do a lot...
Some of these strains hermie like hell, some a little. Some have had almost all the hermie traits removed. Selving a hermie will lock in the trait....
I just gotta agree the sts is the best method, your not taking chances but putting ourselves in control.
But we should never forget the plants ability to adapt, and history.
The thaiwaneese have culled their males for how many centuries? IMHO it's a known fact the high rate of hermies in most thai strains is due to the culling of male plants over time... The plants ability to adapt. Certain to present itself within the first couple generations of a new enviroment, or shall we say conditions.
Because indoors you step out of "enviroment" and now create the "condition of the atmosphere".....
But all this is to be considered and more, and a few offspring generations tested before I'll be grabbin any sts or makin collodial silver.
what was that we needed? Oh yea distilled water, silver, a bit of wire, and a small 9 v battery?
Anyways i so stoned im delierious i gotta get going and do something today....
My back has been out of place (and neck) for a few days now, it hurt really bad to walk. But a little massage and crackin them back into place has me out of pain almost completely today.....
I really gotta watch it, and that's why I can't really build houses anymore-unless it was at MY pace..... I threw my back out, throwin sacks of concrete like im still in my 20's. I laid around a lot, but got to work everyday and did what i had to...
Im thinking I better ease into the "pour" and wait until tomorrow at least to fire up the cement mixer.
Give my back a chance to settle back in! L.O.L.
Or better yet "I have had a weak back since a week back" Today is the first day it doesn't feel like someone is behind me with a 2x4 whacking my kidneys and shoulders at every step...
It feels good now, after we got her to crack last night.
take care
tiedye
Just spotted your post and it struck me...
Selving and femmin I played around with in 1999, quite a bit actually...
Femminised seed is not good to breed from, selving also. each generation of filial breeding has possibilities of hermaphroditic behavior increasing or decreasing...
For me hermies aren't such a problem indoors- I remove them. Usually at 2-3 months old.
Outdoors after growing a plant all season, especially a thai which refuses to flower in time. And then have them go hermie is devastating....
I still have strains and genepools from selections made of phenotypes acccociated with the pstock of the femms and selves.... I was experimenting, as i like to do a lot...
Some of these strains hermie like hell, some a little. Some have had almost all the hermie traits removed. Selving a hermie will lock in the trait....
I just gotta agree the sts is the best method, your not taking chances but putting ourselves in control.
But we should never forget the plants ability to adapt, and history.
The thaiwaneese have culled their males for how many centuries? IMHO it's a known fact the high rate of hermies in most thai strains is due to the culling of male plants over time... The plants ability to adapt. Certain to present itself within the first couple generations of a new enviroment, or shall we say conditions.
Because indoors you step out of "enviroment" and now create the "condition of the atmosphere".....
But all this is to be considered and more, and a few offspring generations tested before I'll be grabbin any sts or makin collodial silver.
what was that we needed? Oh yea distilled water, silver, a bit of wire, and a small 9 v battery?
Anyways i so stoned im delierious i gotta get going and do something today....
My back has been out of place (and neck) for a few days now, it hurt really bad to walk. But a little massage and crackin them back into place has me out of pain almost completely today.....
I really gotta watch it, and that's why I can't really build houses anymore-unless it was at MY pace..... I threw my back out, throwin sacks of concrete like im still in my 20's. I laid around a lot, but got to work everyday and did what i had to...
Im thinking I better ease into the "pour" and wait until tomorrow at least to fire up the cement mixer.
Give my back a chance to settle back in! L.O.L.
Or better yet "I have had a weak back since a week back" Today is the first day it doesn't feel like someone is behind me with a 2x4 whacking my kidneys and shoulders at every step...
It feels good now, after we got her to crack last night.
take care
tiedye
G
Guest
"when allard said self pollination he meant in the terms of using one plant from the line to pollinate another plant from the same line."
Actually, allard meant exactly what he said, self-pollination... full-sib mating, of the kind you describe, can produce an IBL over many generations, but the decrease in heterozygosity is slower than in selfing. the interesting thing about Allard's book, which is still the standard in the field, is that selfing crops and outcrossing crops are discussed in two completely different sections... it's important to keep in mind that outcrossers are the exception, and most plant breeding lit. is geared towards selfers.
if you pick up allard's book, check out 'half sib selection with progeny testing', it's easier than it sounds...
Actually, allard meant exactly what he said, self-pollination... full-sib mating, of the kind you describe, can produce an IBL over many generations, but the decrease in heterozygosity is slower than in selfing. the interesting thing about Allard's book, which is still the standard in the field, is that selfing crops and outcrossing crops are discussed in two completely different sections... it's important to keep in mind that outcrossers are the exception, and most plant breeding lit. is geared towards selfers.
if you pick up allard's book, check out 'half sib selection with progeny testing', it's easier than it sounds...
