Constant problem at a building

[Hookah79]

What’s up ICMaggers!,been a while for me.

So i keep having these constant problems at an old vacant building that we renovated.Both rooms are completely sealed with 2” closed cell spray foam top to bottom plus drywall/frp panels.I do run fresh air intake/exaust on a timers with dampers/hepa filters inline.

Iam going on my 3rd batch of plants that keep getting sick to the point that I discarded the previous 2 and this one could be on its way out again if something doesn’t change.The issue starts with leave tips turning brown and curling down,then it travels through the whole plant.Roots starts turning beige from pearl white.The plants stops eating with leaves curling and twisting.

I feed them Jacks 321 at 1.2-1.4 ec.I have tried every single environment possible.Co2 on/off,foggers to raise humidity,lowering/raising temps.Moved them from MH to Gavita DE.Treated them with root cleaners/enzymes etc.Moved from tupur to straight coco.Nothing seems to work.

Now the building was vacant for 10-15 yrs with a collapsed roof and used to be a mechanic shop of some sort.My water pressure is low so I suspect there could be some issues with it. So i went ahead and got it tested by JR Peters and they said that i have good water.I am currently using a big boy filter.So the tests show before and after.Could there be some bacteria ,etc growing in the underground pipes since they weren’t being used?.Couple of guys i know use only the same filter on the same street with no issues whatsoever,one who’s literally next door to me.

I had fellow growers inspect the plants to see if there was bugs on plants/roots but nada.We’re thinking it’s the water source and to try RO as to strip everything out.I am thinking it’s either the water or something off gassing of some sort??? .iam hand watering atm and i did find black mold/gunk inside the watering hose so idk that could be the culprit.I just hate to go invest money in an RO system when that might not be the isssue.I was thinking of calling the water department and complain about the low pressure,maybe they can repair the underground pipe which is copper where is sticks out.

Apologies for the long post.Appreciate your thoughts on this.

 

[Hookah79]

[No message]

 

[f-e]

In pic 2, a couple at the back look a lot different. Are they different ?

 

[Hookah79]

In pic 2, a couple at the back look a lot different. Are they different ?

Sorry,yes those 2 got there 2 weeks ago.I forgot they were in the pics.They are starting to show the brown tip effect as of yesterday.The rest of the batch got there a month ago.It takes a few weeks for them to start showing symptoms.I’ll swing by today to snap a few more as they’ve gotten worse.

 

[f-e]

Is their coco a lighter colour?

Have you ran the room vented?

That dry twisted death could be poison. Which with all that foam and lino wouldn't be that surprising. Isocyanates as used as the foam propellant and will gas off for some time. Is the problem fading at all over time?

 

[Hookah79]

This is them now (3 days from the previous pics).
Notice the tips on the bigger plants starts yellowing/curling down then go brown.The new growth starts turning brown also.

 

[Hookah79]

Is their coco a lighter colour?

Have you ran the room vented?

That dry twisted death could be poison. Which with all that foam and lino wouldn't be that surprising. Isocyanates as used as the foam propellant and will gas off for some time. Is the problem fading at all over time?

It’s light on top only,but i have been trying to let them dry up a bit before watering on this batch because of the root issues.
The room has intake/exaust that runs for 15 minutes every 2 hrs,then 4 hrs at night split into 2 durations.I vented the rooms for a solid week with ac running with no noticeable improvement.I have changed the duration of venting many different times.The paint and foam is about 7-8 months old so i am assuming that’s long enough to off gas???.The gentleman in charge of the foam insulation told me that he does jobs where the facility is only using foam all the way around with no drywalls etc and it’s approved by the state so idk lol.

 

[Hookah79]

First batch, plants were stripped completely from all the bad leaves and we cut off the branches to start them over because of the problems and the new growth again resembled the old ones.Notice each strain acts differently.

 

[f-e]

Bottled co2?
Was if off during the week of venting 24/7?

EDIT:


Feed:
Check meters. Check runoff. Use new feed, completely. Acid, the lot.

Air:
It's Okay locally, and you have switched off any air amendments and run extraction

Water:
Been to the lab, filtered

Bugs:
Sacrifice a couple. maybe 3ppm of bleach in the coco, and a pesticide that means you're never going to touch them again. Just empty home depot on them.


Can you take a plant out and stick it in the ground somewhere? Wash off some coco and drop it in with compost.

 

[Switcher56]

Is their coco a lighter colour?

Have you ran the room vented?

That dry twisted death could be poison. Which with all that foam and lino wouldn't be that surprising. Isocyanates as used as the foam propellant and will gas off for some time. Is the problem fading at all over time?

That was my guess as well. The insulation was improperly cured or is still curing

 

[star crash]

Is it possible that the spray foam is offgassing and poisoning the plants?

 

[Creeperpark]

Your water is contaminated and causing these problems, the building was vacant for 10-15 yrs and so the pipes didn't get used. Old water became stagnate water in those pipes and didn't move for all those years. The pipes rusted heavily and became positively or negatively charged and buffered your Cation Exchange. Your soil may already be too contaminated from the dirty water you've used and too late for fast growth. On any grows with five or more plants, always use pure water from a clean water source. I seen this happen before with a old rent house. RO or Rain or Problems.

 

[f-e]

Your water is contaminated and causing these problems, the building was vacant for 10-15 yrs and so the pipes didn't get used. Old water became stagnate water in those pipes and didn't move for all those years. The pipes rusted heavily and became positively or negatively charged and buffered your Cation Exchange. Your soil may already be too contaminated from the dirty water you've used and too late for fast growth. On any grows with five or more plants, always use pure water from a clean water source. I seen this happen before with a old rent house. RO or Rain or Problems.

He has a water report, but oddly, Iron is missing. The report is otherwise well balanced. Though it's not concerned with bacteria and such. I wonder what a big-boy filter actually is? Excess Iron might be visible upon it. After so many months, I'm leaning towards stuff living in there. It's surely treated water, but I would still bleach one of the plants. There are a few plants, so a few sacrifices won't hurt. Perhaps one should be moved to compost and watered with water carried in. Nothing used from that property except the air and light.

 

[Creeperpark]

.When water is treated by so called "water treatment systems" and sent back out to the public, it is damaged, when it comes to "horticulture principles". They put stuff in it that kills the good stuff and permanently raise's the pH to alkaline states. When you try to fix it with acid you will leave a by-product that blocks exchange sites in the water. Some greenhouses use injectors and acid with every watering to modify and mend it, but it's not the same as pure water. Acid mixed water is good for small short season annuals, but not for something that's going to be in a container for 3 to 4 months. My suggestion is to only use RO or Rain water mixed with nutrients with every watering. RO and Rain must be fortified with cal-mag when used with a soil-less substrate. Make sure your coco is super clean before starting and only use super clean water with nutrients with every feeding and everything will change.

 

[Creeperpark]

Water treatment systems use a chemical called sodium hypochlorite to raise the pH and another chemical called sodium bisulfite to lower the pH, back into a so-called safe range.

Sodium hypochlorite pH is 11
Sodium hypochlorite is a clear, slightly yellowish solution with a characteristic odor. As a bleaching agent it is usually a 5 percent sodium hypochlorite with a pH of about 11. More concentrated solutions (10 to 15 percent) have a pH of about 13. Google

Sodium bisulphite pH is 3.6 to 4.6 and is primarily used for water treatment, removing excess chlorine in drinking water. The problem comes from the by-products left behind when adding all these chemicals to the water. The actual water treatment process is designed to prevent Cation exchange in drinking water. If your water has nutrients, they will mostly likely be locked out from the modified pH.

 

[jackspratt61]

What’s up ICMaggers!,been a while for me.

So i keep having these constant problems at an old vacant building that we renovated.Both rooms are completely sealed with 2” closed cell spray foam top to bottom plus drywall/frp panels.I do run fresh air intake/exaust on a timers with dampers/hepa filters inline.

Iam going on my 3rd batch of plants that keep getting sick to the point that I discarded the previous 2 and this one could be on its way out again if something doesn’t change.The issue starts with leave tips turning brown and curling down,then it travels through the whole plant.Roots starts turning beige from pearl white.The plants stops eating with leaves curling and twisting.

I feed them Jacks 321 at 1.2-1.4 ec.I have tried every single environment possible.Co2 on/off,foggers to raise humidity,lowering/raising temps.Moved them from MH to Gavita DE.Treated them with root cleaners/enzymes etc.Moved from tupur to straight coco.Nothing seems to work.

Now the building was vacant for 10-15 yrs with a collapsed roof and used to be a mechanic shop of some sort.My water pressure is low so I suspect there could be some issues with it. So i went ahead and got it tested by JR Peters and they said that i have good water.I am currently using a big boy filter.So the tests show before and after.Could there be some bacteria ,etc growing in the underground pipes since they weren’t being used?.Couple of guys i know use only the same filter on the same street with no issues whatsoever,one who’s literally next door to me.

I had fellow growers inspect the plants to see if there was bugs on plants/roots but nada.We’re thinking it’s the water source and to try RO as to strip everything out.I am thinking it’s either the water or something off gassing of some sort??? .iam hand watering atm and i did find black mold/gunk inside the watering hose so idk that could be the culprit.I just hate to go invest money in an RO system when that might not be the isssue.I was thinking of calling the water department and complain about the low pressure,maybe they can repair the underground pipe which is copper where is sticks out.

Apologies for the long post.Appreciate your thoughts on this.

Are bicarbonates reported? I see calcium issues.

 

[f-e]

I think his Jacks uses calnit as a separate sack. I see the same calcium problems, which is why I suggested a total feed change. Many powders use calnit and I would like to see it replaced. His nitrogen doesn't look so lacking though.
My mind moves to calcium's job of neutralising cell acids. I'm well out my wheel house here, but suspect the signs plants show are excess acid, when calcium is deficient. The burning, drying, crunching and distorting of tissue that was previously alright. Though it's just a suggestion, I'm well out my depth. Might plant pH be the issue here. I check my meters against indicator solution at this point of desperation. To ensure the calibration solution is right.

Stick one in beni loaded compost, and use an outside water source for it. It will tell you in a few days if the problem is at the root or in the air. Take another and bleach or oxy it. Take another out the building and put it in a garden. Split them up and treat them differently. See what helps them recover, while trying a few things at once. It's the quickest way through it.

 

[Hookah79]

f-e:The co2 i was using is NG.I’ve vented air with it on and off.The one I completely vented it was off,and it’s off as we speak with 300-350 ppm from fresh air coming in.

I have went nuclear on this last batch just to rule out bugs unfortunately.Avid-Forbid and such.I took one plant to a different location and it has bounced back but took literally a month to do so.I also put 2 plants outside a month ago from that same second batch.They’re alive but been just getting rain water so they’re sufficient in nutes but the leaves are not curling like they used too.

jackspratt61:They only test for what shows in the analysis i posted earlier

Creeperpark:I’ve enclosed the 2020 water analysis from the city of Detroit,but that’s not to say that’s what’s ending up in my rez.

This thing is driving me insane truth be told.What’s boggling my mind is the first batch that i brought in the roots start taking off when I transplanted from 5 to 10 gal pots.So how does that happen if the water is bad???.This was done in February where I didn’t have the big boy filter and had to use a portion of hot water from my tankless water heater to bring up the rez water temps.My second batch fresh clones took a dive within 2 weeks as the roots never migrated from their red cup shape.
my current batch the roots started taking off from the red cup to fill around the 1 gal pot but stalled and stopped eating right around the usual brown tips dilemma.

I hate to drop money on an RO system if it’s truly not needed.I do have a small RO set up i was thinking of running it off the big boy filter to play around and see if it helps before investing in a bigger one but iam concerned if the filters are contaminated now from the water.

I’ve enclosed some pics of the first batch roots/outside plants.
Also some info on the city water analysis and the type of foam insulation used.Idk maybe something sticks out for you guys.

I did call the water department and they are sending a tech to check the water pressure but the lady did say that if the pipe from building to the main is corroded i would responsible to replace it smh.

I also spoke to a gentleman from JR Peters today and he assured me that the pre and after filter water is really good.Idk iam thinking of doing another sample somewhere where they can do a full contaminants analysis of some sort.

I really appreciate all the help iam getting here.
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[Hookah79]

[No message]

 

[jackspratt61]

Are bicarbonates reported? I see calcium issues.

Slip the pot off your best and worst. Let's look at the roots.