Cloning Failing? Tried Everything? Found the missing link?

[luxcultivars]

i just tried the calculator, and im getting .03 grams per 5 gallons per 1mg/l chlorine.

do you know the % availability of your particular brand of calcium hypo?

it ranges from like 60-80% usually.

dichlor and trichlor are different.

Thanks. Using this: http://www.amazon.com/Arch-Chemical-51109-Shock-1-Pound/dp/B000JWCB06/ref=sr_1_7?ie=UTF8&qid=1426226190&sr=8-7&keywords=pool+shock+packets

It says :
'Minimum available chlorine 45-percent
Active ingredient: calcium hypochlorite 40-55-percent, cal hypo'

I'm doing 1 gram in 1 gallon of water. I add this stock solution at 1 oz. per 5 gallons of cloner res solution @ ph 5.8. It works insanely well.

I guess all I am really after here is to determine the concentration of chlorine after, say, 3 days. I would like to maintain the level initially added; I just want to know how much is typically left. 10%? 20%? More curiosity than anything.

I think you guys may need to step back for a second and consider something... throwing all of this money in testers and whatnot for pool supplies, grab a proper pH pen and that's it. I water directly from a well with some HARD fucking water, and I can say cloning became 1000 times easier when I stopped over thinking it.

Water, some form of material to root into, and SMALL amounts of light are all that's needed.

Awesome that this meets your needs, dooms. But you need to consider that some of us are production cloners in the medical community and have needed to take the process up several notches.

I don't really feel like adding 6 ml of pool shock to my aerocloner solution is 'overthinking it'. It is amazing at maintaining health and sterility. A big focus in plant tissue culture is sterility, and IMO applying that principle to clones is a no-brainer. No bio is necessary during the rooting phase.

You can definitely either use straight water or use bio techniques to get amazing roots, but if you allow healthy bio in there then you also risk having anaerobic bio eventually develop.

Crazy as it sounds I run my cloner temps at 80-82 degrees and get foot-long roots in about 10 days. It's insane. (Snype's formula. ) I get 100% success, have no algae or slime to scrub out, and get a batch in and out of my cloner within 2 weeks. And if I get delayed? They just start growing and vegging out in there, and stay sterile. One of the things I like about that formula is that the clone starts growing immediately as soon as roots start developing. No stalling, no yellowing, no dead-heading.

 

[queequeg152]

Thanks. Using this: http://www.amazon.com/Arch-Chemical...1426226190&sr=8-7&keywords=pool+shock+packets

It says :
'Minimum available chlorine 45-percent
Active ingredient: calcium hypochlorite 40-55-percent, cal hypo'

I'm doing 1 gram in 1 gallon of water. I add this stock solution at 1 oz. per 5 gallons of cloner res solution @ ph 5.8. It works insanely well.

I guess all I am really after here is to determine the concentration of chlorine after, say, 3 days. I would like to maintain the level initially added; I just want to know how much is typically left. 10%? 20%? More curiosity than anything.

i see what you are saying.

you have roughly 125mg/L chlorine in solution, in a volume of 30ml

then you dilute into 5*3785ml.

concentration x*volume x = concentration y * volume y ( i think)

so 125*30ml / ( 5* 3785) = .2 mg/L calculated chlorine.

thats actually kinda low? its so low that it might be difficult to measure with that testing kit.

the lower limit of that kit is going to be around .2 to .5 mg/l

id suggest checking my math, then testing your reservoir at the current rate... when ever you get the kit.

imo you should get low single digit number for periodic treatment. something like 1-3 mg/l should work fine.

i really cannot tell you how long the chlorine will persist with out empirical measurements. the persistance of it depends on how much oxidizable material is present, how much aeration, how much UV, water temperature etc.

there is no rule of thumb that i know of that will apply to an aeroponic cloner. A well treated pool, free of algea, leaves, debris, and reasonably clean should hold chlorine values over night give or take 1 mg/l provided the pool is not circulating.

the same pool during a warm summer day, with the pump running, sun shinning, and algea growing will usually see a concentration of 5-10 or or so mg/l drop by about a third to about a half. hence the use of floaters, or inline puck chlorinators or even salt water generators.

on the other side of things, you can shock a very dirty pool up to 20mg/l ... come back the next day and measure absolutely ZERO chlorine residual... you get where im going? if you dump chlorine in to a swamp, its not going to hold. its going to be reduced by all of the organic material present. theres also things to consider such as stabilizer chemicals.... but dont worry about stabilizers unless you are working outdoors or in a high uv environment where the res is exposed.

 

[DoomsDay]

Valid points made by many.

As far as a digital pH meter, couldn't agree more about Hanna pens being garbage. blue lab pens kn the other hand, if it dies, it's warranties free... ive paid for one and have them replaced free of charge if any issue arises. as far as cleaning goes, spot on as far as the fact it is a normal practice, as I do it myself, and would never argue that a clean room isn't one of the most important factors.

now as far as numbers and rooting, I root a few hundred at a time as well, so I understand the idea behind rooting in mass for medical purposes, however one thing I'm still not seeing is many people shocking water with pool or spa shock. when it gets down to brass tacks, it's all chemistry. youre adding an acid to water to introduce an influx of hydrogen+ ions (h2) which in turn drops the pH and creates an acid environment not conducive to growth for age or mildew.

wanna shock your water and save even more? a bottle of 98% concentrated sulfuric acid (h2SO4) will cost you about 10 bucks, and one medicine dropper full will bring 18 gallons of water down .2 on the pH scale...

not looking to argue, looking to talk science here and see if we can discover a cheap way to make the masses happy.

 

[Ymir]

I can also weigh in on PH pens and confirm that the cheap ones are not worth the headaches. I had 2 different Hannah meters and was constantly scratching my head trying to understand the logic behind why my PH never seemed to make "sense". I broke down and bought the $200 blue labs combo meter and now I more or less trust it although it's slower than I was hoping. Apparently my water is low on ionics so it's almost like trying to PH distilled water, so until I add my nutes and stuff, it takes forever to get a reading.

Also as DoomsDay said, sulfuric acid from a car shop is awesome, although I found 1 particular instance where using another form helped...I grow in Dyna Rok which apparently keeps the PH high from all the crappy dust/sand it gives off (it's made of silica) so even after using 3x my normal amount of sulfuric acid, my PH was still at 6.5 and not going down. I then added some ph down (phosphoric) and it went right down for me.

So thank you for recommending the chlorine tester, I will be ordering one now. Soaking my grow rocks in h2o2 clearly did not do the job because some rocks were growing brown shit on them after I left them wet for a few days (probably from the root fragments stuck in the rocks). So I'm a bit paranoid now and want to make sure I keep the chlorine as high as possible at first to kill off any remaining turds that may be floatin around

 

[queequeg152]

Valid points made by many.

As far as a digital pH meter, couldn't agree more about Hanna pens being garbage. blue lab pens kn the other hand, if it dies, it's warranties free... ive paid for one and have them replaced free of charge if any issue arises. as far as cleaning goes, spot on as far as the fact it is a normal practice, as I do it myself, and would never argue that a clean room isn't one of the most important factors.

now as far as numbers and rooting, I root a few hundred at a time as well, so I understand the idea behind rooting in mass for medical purposes, however one thing I'm still not seeing is many people shocking water with pool or spa shock. when it gets down to brass tacks, it's all chemistry. youre adding an acid to water to introduce an influx of hydrogen+ ions (h2) which in turn drops the pH and creates an acid environment not conducive to growth for age or mildew.

wanna shock your water and save even more? a bottle of 98% concentrated sulfuric acid (h2SO4) will cost you about 10 bucks, and one medicine dropper full will bring 18 gallons of water down .2 on the pH scale...

not looking to argue, looking to talk science here and see if we can discover a cheap way to make the masses happy.

rather than sulfuric acid, i use HCL, hydrochloric acid... its about 7 8 bucks a gallon here.

im not familiar with what sulfuric acid costs, but it very well could be cheaper. i could caution against a concentrated acid though, especially concentrated nitric and sulfuric acid.

 

[Ymir]

Valid points made by many.

As far as a digital pH meter, couldn't agree more about Hanna pens being garbage. blue lab pens kn the other hand, if it dies, it's warranties free... ive paid for one and have them replaced free of charge if any issue arises. as far as cleaning goes, spot on as far as the fact it is a normal practice, as I do it myself, and would never argue that a clean room isn't one of the most important factors.

now as far as numbers and rooting, I root a few hundred at a time as well, so I understand the idea behind rooting in mass for medical purposes, however one thing I'm still not seeing is many people shocking water with pool or spa shock. when it gets down to brass tacks, it's all chemistry. youre adding an acid to water to introduce an influx of hydrogen+ ions (h2) which in turn drops the pH and creates an acid environment not conducive to growth for age or mildew.

wanna shock your water and save even more? a bottle of 98% concentrated sulfuric acid (h2SO4) will cost you about 10 bucks, and one medicine dropper full will bring 18 gallons of water down .2 on the pH scale...

not looking to argue, looking to talk science here and see if we can discover a cheap way to make the masses happy.

Calcium hypochlorite raises PH, I'm not sure what you're trying to say exactly but adding sulfuric acid to water by itself is not going to prevent slime.

 

[luxcultivars]

queequeg152, that was way above and beyond the call of duty. Thank you for explaining all that. Great information.

I think the intention of the original pool shock post - https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=219683 - was to duplicate a product called 'clear-res'. I'm not sure how he figured out how to match the chlorine levels. He goes by final ppm instead of mg/ltr. I do know that you can add quite a lot more chlorine than he advises and the clones seem to do just fine. I have never seen any bio using the levels indicated. Bright white healthy roots every time.

now as far as numbers and rooting, I root a few hundred at a time as well, so I understand the idea behind rooting in mass for medical purposes, however one thing I'm still not seeing is many people shocking water with pool or spa shock. when it gets down to brass tacks, it's all chemistry. youre adding an acid to water to introduce an influx of hydrogen+ ions (h2) which in turn drops the pH and creates an acid environment not conducive to growth for age or mildew.

Chlorine sterilization is not dependent upon ph in any way. Not sure what your point is? My tap water has chlorine in it that kills bio and it's at ph 7.5...?

My cloner solution ph ends up nearly perfect (for cloning) when I use Snype's cloning formula. (https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?threadid=268211) I sometimes will nudge it down from ph 6 to ph 5.8. It doesn't fluctuate much at all in that 10 day rooting period.

Also, are you running your solution temps at 82 degrees? That would be a total disaster without pool shock. Just saying. The high temperatures give me very fast rooting, and this benefits the clone so it begins taking up nutrients 5-7 days earlier. The result is very fast growth and vigor, no stalling, no yellowing.

This is just one way to do it. There are many great techniques that work. I have used many in the past 20 years and sworn that each was the BEST! way (whatever that means). It just depends upon an individual's needs. Rapidrooter plugs, rockwool, Light Warrior... all of these work fine. I moved over to Snype's cloning solution formula because it takes the process to a new level.

 

[mojave green]

I like chlorine dioxide as an oxidizer/sterilizer. Much cleaner

 

[mojave green]

Chlorine sterilization is not dependent upon ph in any way.

Yes it is, with the exception of chlorine dioxide.

 

[luxcultivars]

(Originally Posted by luxcultivars)
Chlorine sterilization is not dependent upon ph in any way.

Yes it is, with the exception of chlorine dioxide.

Interesting. Can you explain how? Adding pool shock to my 5.8 res gives me a ph of 5.8. How does ph play into antimicrobial activity?

And how much chlorine dioxide do you add?

 

[mojave green]

(Originally Posted by luxcultivars)
Chlorine sterilization is not dependent upon ph in any way.
Interesting. Can you explain how?

start at POST#159
https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=269646&page=11

And how much chlorine dioxide do you add?

i use an orp meter.

 

[queequeg152]

rofl. where the fuck are you buying chlorine dioxide? how are you ejecting it?
are you aware of the myriad safety concerns regarding its use?

i worked on waste water treatment plants for a number of years. the utility company i did alot of work for stopped even bothering to add clo2 system to these WWTP's beacuse the safety requirements and training was too expensive.


calcium hypo BARELY raises ph... its not even worth monitoring in a highly alkaline environment.

sodium hypo generally WILL raise the ph of a solution, mostly because its stabilized by adding base to the solution. still though. its not worth monitoring unless you are shocking a solution to high values.

your typical ml or two addition will not appreciably alter the ph of a slolution.

 

[DoomsDay]

ah. I must have came in at a point in the conversation that I wasn't aware of, I thought the discussion of ph water was taking place on top of cleaning procedure/ routine. I've one time ran an aero cloner and left the pump on 24/7 and it was bad news bears. went back to root riot cubes and perlite, never looked back.

good info all the way around, interesting tidbit on chlorine dioxide as well.

 

[Ymir]

Well here we go again, the brown devil slime is back. I went from adding what I thought was 2x the recommended dosage of chlorine, having watered that smelled like chlorine, to 2 days later brown stuff growing on the edges of my reservoir along the waterline and SMELLY POOPY CACA SMELL!

Still waiting on my chlorine tester but I went ahead and added another dose and sealed a couple light leaks that were present. I spent a lot of money on a complete ebb and flow setup from Sentinel and it seems the pots/controller aren't exactly light proof so maybe I need to surround every damn pot in panda film?

My water got up to around 75, which I didn't think would be a problem with the chlorine. The problem there is that I can get it lower, by not using my air stone but then I have stagnent water. Now I'm regretting these damn grow rocks even more, I know they are to blame for such a quick re-infection in an entirely clean system. Never again will I rely on h2o2 to clean shit, bleach bleach bleach.

So what I will do is empty out my res tomorrow, run some clean ph'd water with h2o2 and then throw in my chlorine the next day and hopefully that 1-2 punch will at least keep it in check until I can get my chlorine tester and go 3ppm for a while until hopefully I can mostly kill this shit off.

Other related question would be, in an ebb and flow with grow rocks, is it advisable to re-water before it "needs it" so I'm running more oxygenated water to the roots rather than letting them sit in moist rocks for 4+ hours?

 

[queequeg152]

Well here we go again, the brown devil slime is back. I went from adding what I thought was 2x the recommended dosage of chlorine, having watered that smelled like chlorine, to 2 days later brown stuff growing on the edges of my reservoir along the waterline and SMELLY POOPY CACA SMELL!

Still waiting on my chlorine tester but I went ahead and added another dose and sealed a couple light leaks that were present. I spent a lot of money on a complete ebb and flow setup from Sentinel and it seems the pots/controller aren't exactly light proof so maybe I need to surround every damn pot in panda film?

My water got up to around 75, which I didn't think would be a problem with the chlorine. The problem there is that I can get it lower, by not using my air stone but then I have stagnent water. Now I'm regretting these damn grow rocks even more, I know they are to blame for such a quick re-infection in an entirely clean system. Never again will I rely on h2o2 to clean shit, bleach bleach bleach.

So what I will do is empty out my res tomorrow, run some clean ph'd water with h2o2 and then throw in my chlorine the next day and hopefully that 1-2 punch will at least keep it in check until I can get my chlorine tester and go 3ppm for a while until hopefully I can mostly kill this shit off.

Other related question would be, in an ebb and flow with grow rocks, is it advisable to re-water before it "needs it" so I'm running more oxygenated water to the roots rather than letting them sit in moist rocks for 4+ hours?

so youve actually got a smell? whats it smell like? sulfur? spoiled eggs? if so this is likely sulfate reducing bacteria.... though ive only read of this sort of bacteria existing in anerobic conditions?

i would try shocking up to 5mg/L... use a direct addition and use that calculator i linked.

you could go much higher than 5... 10... 15 probably 20+ easily, but id start low. and see what happens with the concentrations.

ill be 100% honest here, with respect to hydroponics, ive never used chlorine in any role other than as a preventative or with very very light blooms of algae. ive also never run a bucket ebb system. only trays... with lettuce.

it sounds like you have some sort of colony growing in your medium? Idk what grow rocks are exactly.

id suggest one of two things... either maintain low levels of chlorine basically 24-7, or try shocking up to like 5mg/l.
if you choose to shock, id suggest shutting down the aeration for a few hours as it will only drive out more chlorine.

again regarding shocking,you are going to want to maximize the amount of time your chlorinated soltuon is in contact with this grow medium you are using. idk how you would like to do this, nor do i know whats appropriate, duration wise without endangering your plants.

its also possible you might have a biofilm issue.... if you do, almost no level of hypo chlorine disinfection will kill it... best you can do is keep it at bay. biofilms are remarkably resilient... they can be handled with some other chemicals but i wont get into that. its easier to just scrub down your plumbing and buckets etc afterwards.

if you find that you simply cannot maintain any levels of chlorine despite shocking, id suggest buying a solenoid pump, and dosing automatically... many times a day.

 

[queequeg152]

also that chlorine smell you referenced is an indication of low levels of chlorine, which result in chloramines or "combined chlorine" being generated. when you have high levels of free chlorine or hypochlorous acid in solution, these smelly chloramines are eliminated.


also...
lol id still like to hear about, or better yet see some pictures of mojave greens fancy chlorine dioxide system...

 

[Santalum]

Excuse my ignorance but if the issue is essentially hygiene would it not also be possible to ensure better success through the use of water spiked with colloidal silver. Colloidal silver is very effective against a wide range of pathogens. It is also easy to brew up yourself for cents in the dollar.

 

[queequeg152]

thats funny, i just watched some documentary wherein using silver compounds in conjunction with antibiotics was discussed...

but compared to chlorine, i imagine silver is a poor alternative.
its also more expensive i imagine?

you are right though in noting that there are more ways to skin this proverbial cat. chloramines, ozone, uv, chlorine salt cells etc.

where ive seen alot of silver is in these fancy antimicrobial coatings or laquers applied to countertops and door handles and shit like that. sounds like a great idea if it works, no clue how long its supposed to last though.

 

[Santalum]

Colloidal silver is cheap as chips if you have your own generator. A good generator will cost you maybe a couple of hundred bucks but will last a lifetime. The silver rods last forever as you only need 20ppm concentration and you will take out almost any bacteria, virus or simple fungi.

 

[queequeg152]

Chlorine sterilization is not dependent upon ph in any way. Not sure what your point is? My tap water has chlorine in it that kills bio and it's at ph 7.5...?

actually salts of hypochlorite, sodium and calcium hypo, ARE effected by PH.

hypochlorous acid is a weak acid, and hence exists in equilibrium. acidic solutions push the equation towards more HClO, while base pushes it towards more chlorite, hence why they add base to bleach to stabilize it.

there is a happy margin however, where the disinfection power is adequate... its not till you go above 8 or below 5 where you run into issues from what i recall.