circuit breaker questions/problems

[irie-i]

most of my room is on an old square D 220w 40 amp breaker. it's a double with two switches connected together (as opposed to the kind that has only a single switch, but the breaker is a fat 220)
occasionally the circuit blows when the lights come on, but there is still some 110 power coming through, and the timer still runs. i flip it and it stays on, sometimes for days before it breaks again.
first of all, could someone explain why when the circuit blows there is still some power?
and moreover,i realize their are measures i could take to graduate the power (ie. relays to turn on the lights 2 at a time) and i have intentions to redesign my board, but those issues for another day....be that as it may, another question or two, do circuit breakers get old and tired? if i replace it with a new one could that perhaps decrease the likelyhood of blowing the circuit?
thanks guys and gals...

i am irie

 

[Latitude18]

I'm no licensed electrician, but it sounds to me that one side of the breaker is bad , I'd replace the whole thing first. And while you have it out check the connetions in any plugs. Hope this helps

 

[MTF-Sandman]

How many lights are you running off it and what else is using that circuit?

 

[irie-i]

mtf, im running a bunch of stuff...a/c, fans. for sake of argument lets assume i am generally using 80% of 40a. the circuit breaks only when the lights come on and only about twice a week. when i flip it back it stays. so i wonder (hope) if its becuase the breaker is old/bad like lat 18 says. perhaps instead of wasting everybody's time ill just replace the dang thing.

 

[Dreamscape]

I'm going to assume that you said "for the sake of argument lets assume i'm generally using 80% of the 40 amps" because you already know that breakers are designed to trip when they reach the 80 percent mark.

From my limited research i've come to find out that the only other way that - the one 40amp breaker would sometimes trip and sometimes not would be because the total amperage that specific breaker can handle is only sometimes hitting its limit. Maybe there are even more recepticles (outlets) off of this breaker you dont know about and they are drawing power at the same time you're running the lights??

Other than that there is the total house draw of amps which is reaching its limit.

For instance an electrician told me that an old building which only had a total amp draw of 100 amps off the street , which btw way is about half the total draw of the average house these days , with 3 apartments - each of which has 50 amp 220v outlets for electric stoves + 2 of the apartments are equiped with 30 amp 220v outlets for dryers has equipment to handle 210 amps plus all the extra breakers for the smaller outlets of the house. HOWEVER since the total draw is less than what the breakers can handle if all 3 electric stoves are running on full blast with every burner , broiler and oven running it will trip the whole building as opposed to each individual breaker.

However of course if other things are still running in the house after only the lights trip - I would assume either the breaker (or possibly the wiring but if that were the case it may have already started a fire - i think) is bad or there are simply too many appliances hooked up to the breaker and when you run them ALL at the same time is when it trips.

Again - this is as far as my research takes me and i'm NO expert or electrician - just figured i'd attempt to lend what i've learned...

Let us know how it goes and BEST OF LUCK !!!
~Dream

 

[MTF-Sandman]

It sounds like you're on the very edge of what the breaker can handle or that the breaker is bad IMO...Since the breakers are cheap, I'd replace it first and see if that improves things. If your wire is undersized (smaller than 8 gauge) it could also be causing some issues depending on the length of the run.

I would suggest adding a delayed start on a few/half of the lights (like an HLC-2 hooked up to the trigger port of a HPR-1 or MLC-4)...that should ease the startup loads on the circuit. When the lights are firing up is when they use the most juice, so that should ease the burden on the breaker somewhat...

 

[irie-i]

you already know that breakers are designed to trip when they reach the 80 percent mark.

i'm at least that smart... i guess(hope)

its just the dedicated breaker to my room that trips, and again, like i said, just at startup

breakers are cheap, I'd replace it first and see if that improves things

ill do that today

I would suggest adding a delayed start on a few/half of the lights (like an HLC-2 hooked up to the trigger port of a HPR-1 or MLC-4)...that should ease the startup loads on the circuit.

mtf, could you please elaborate? ill do a google search in the meantime for hlc etc...
thanks folks

 

[Latitude18]

Pick up a new breaker , same as you have , and a 2nd timer. Put the A/C and fans on the second timer set to start 2-5mins before/after the lights. Timers are like $50 for a good one and breaker is $30. Thats what I'd do if it were me.

Good Luck

 

[2buds]

Hey Irie
Does this breaker run to your room then split into various 110 and 220 plugs throughout the room? It sounds like your load isn't spread out between the 2 poles. Are your lights setup on 110 or 220? I use a standard 110 timer, the intermatic hd ones that come in the weather proof boxes. I wired my light to run on 220 and use a 3PST(3 pole single throw) contactor controlled by the timer to turn the light and an array of 110 and 220 plugs on/off.
Replacing the breaker is a start, check the wires connected to the breaker to see if they look black like they've been overheated.
***Man be very careful inside your breaker box.
***If possible cut the power to the box before serviceing your breaker. There's a lot of volts in there just waiting to bite you.
Good luck and be safe in that box man.

 

[irie-i]

Put the A/C and fans on the second timer

cant put the a/c on a timer, it has to have power all the time, it wont restart automatically

Does this breaker run to your room then split into various 110 and 220 plugs throughout the room?

yes, it splits at the timer, an intermatic.

It sounds like your load isn't spread out between the 2 poles. Are your lights setup on 110 or 220? I use a standard 110 timer, the intermatic hd ones that come in the weather proof boxes. I wired my light to run on 220 and use a 3PST(3 pole single throw) contactor controlled by the timer to turn the light and an array of 110 and 220 plugs on/off.

the lights run at 220, the rest at 110. the other timer things (dehumidifier(on in dark only), fan for lights,) are spread out across several minutes.

 

[MTF-Sandman]

mtf, could you please elaborate? ill do a google search in the meantime for hlc etc...

Those are CAP products...

Check out http://www.n-g-w.com/product.php?id=04_ENV for some details on them. The relay will depend on the voltage that you're lights are running at...

2buds makes a good point about having an unbalanced load. Are you running a T104 or WH40 and then pulling all your 120v off one leg of the 240v output?

 

[Diego]

Pick up a new breaker , same as you have , and a 2nd timer. Put the A/C and fans on the second timer set to start 2-5mins before/after the lights. Timers are like $50 for a good one and breaker is $30. Thats what I'd do if it were me.

Good Luck

Thats what Id do, when you start your lights for instance lets say you have four 1000, I think they actually run at 1080 watts and when you first start takes about a 1200 watt surge to turn lights on. so theoretically youd be running an almost 5000 watt room for a few seconds that would probably just be enough to shut off a big breaker. Timer the light start up times to ensure pretty much that nothing will happen. Had this problem a few times as well.

 

[irie-i]

i got a new breaker... the old one has 2 switches conected by a bar, the new one just one switch.
now i know what hlc's and whatnot are i can start to look into that. basically an idiot proof relay, plug and play if you will. so if i get the mlc-4 that will be the delay i need.

 

[MTF-Sandman]

If it's a 240v breaker, it should look like this...

If it doesn't have 2 tabs for turning it on/off (joined by a bar) then it's most likely a 120v breaker. Granted there may be some new breaker form factor that I'm not aware of, if it doesn't have 2 places to insert hot wires then it's not gonna work. The way you described it kinda sounds like it's a 120v...

The MLC4 is just a relay...you'll still need either a 120v timer or a delay hooked up to the trigger input of it to actuate it.

 

[irie-i]

the one i have is definatly 240v 40a. i guess its a newr kind.i installed a similiar one but 20a for my biodiesel processor. i installed the 40a for my room and it works just fine. just one day so far and it didnt trip. ill let y'all know how it goes. i couldnt figure out how to copy the image so here is a link. i hope the link works. http://s7ondemand1.scene7.com/is/se...&resMode=trilin&op_usm=0.0,0.0,0,0&iccEmbed=0

and ill see about those relays for my next cycle.

 

[irie-i]

http://s7ondemand1.scene7.com/is/se...&resMode=trilin&op_usm=0.0,0.0,0,0&iccEmbed=0

maybe thats better

 

[2buds]

Step away from the box.

Just messin, it sure does sound like you bought a 120v breaker. Don't shove 2 wires under the one screw connector, you'll be asking for trouble.

Erie, please be careful around the electric box bro, I don't want your next post saying I woke up in the ER after trying to install my new breaker.
Tip: I always wear a pair of thick dry leather gloves when working inside a live electrical box, anything to help keep me from getting shocked.
Stay safe erie.

Edit:You posted while I was typing.

 

[MTF-Sandman]

Cool...that breaker in the link is a 220v/240v. Forgot about that flavor of breaker. Keep us posted as to how it works out...it'll be nice if that was the only problem.

 

[irie-i]

BBBZZZZTTT ahhhh
just kidding, i turned off the power to the box first

 

[2buds]

Hope its all working out for you irie.
Stay safe and keep it green.