^^^^^ oops. very true
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Chlorine/chloramines
- Thread starter Microbeman
- Start date
U
unthing
so basically if you're just watering dirt you don't have to do anything? i can understand when brewing teas you need to get rid of chlorine first.
checked the local water plant, they either use chlorine or natriumhypochlorite, anyone heard of that one? sorry i meant sodiumhypochlorite.
checked the local water plant, they either use chlorine or natriumhypochlorite, anyone heard of that one? sorry i meant sodiumhypochlorite.
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Doubt that 1 ppm is of any real significance applied to a non sterile organic media like soil/compost/coco , its barely enougth to stop ecoli reproduceing in dangerous numbers in cold low oxygen water.
Its worth remembering a primary reason for changeing from Chlorine to Chloramine was to avoid the proveable cancers caused by PCB contaminants reacting with chlorine to form Trihalomethanes , and costly litigation.
The PCB,s are still there.
I just thought I post this, its from 2009 but its quite shocking. https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/chloramine_in_drinking_water
This is the best way i have found to clean up or make safe for drinking , a wide range of poor water.
Neat little basic and reliable ozone genny with a built in air pump , this brand has been of decent quality and reliable for me for years.
Its chemically the same as adding peroxide to a res .
Neat little basic and reliable ozone genny with a built in air pump , this brand has been of decent quality and reliable for me for years.
Its chemically the same as adding peroxide to a res .
I would be very very interested in seeing some professional studies, papers, experiments that support the notion that molasses neutralizes chlorine and chloramines. I understand the logic, but would love to see the numbers showing exactly how much is removed. If 5ml/gallon is the "sweet spot"...then what are the chlorine/chloramine levels at 2.5ml, 7.5ml, 15ml/gallon?
I would rather add MO than buy/install a new special filter....so I before doing anything--I would like to verify the claim myself.
As a scientist, I am sure you appreciate and will not be offended with my request to confirm and validate your claim.
Thanks!
According to this information from Cornell University (references are at the bottom of the article) chloramine cannot be removed with RO. Also, it will not harm beneficial bacteria in soil.
US law specifies that chloramine concentrations may not exceed 4 ppm in drinking water. Here in Denver, it runs much lower, rarely exceeding 2 ppm.
http://www.denverwater.org/docs/ass...6-FE8FF93CF96C711E/2012WaterQualityReport.pdf
While I lack the studies you want, it seems entirely logical that the addition of that much molasses & some small amount of time will neutralize chloramines at that level. The reason that chloramine persists in drinking water is that it has little to no organic material with which to react. Adding the molasses provides the organic material & means that the necessary exothermic reactions will occur rather quickly.
I can't do that with my aquariums, so I use a water conditioner, but the molasses is harmless to plants & beneficial to soil microbes.
If you're concerned about chloramines in the water you drink, then you'll obviously need a specialized filter to remove them.
Nice find Chuck...from that factsheet:
Removal of Chloramines
Chloramine is a more persistent disinfectant than
chlorine. As a result it is retained in the water for a
longer period of time. The advantage is that in this
way it can function much longer as a disinfectant than
chlorine. However, it cannot be removed by letting
the water stand for a couple of days as with chloride.
The best way to remove chloramine is to use a water
conditioner that contains a de-chlorination chemical
or by using high quality granular activated carbon
which will absorb the chloramine.
Since chloramnine and chlorine kill bacteria, neutralizing them would be great--it seems that MO might possess some type of "de-chlorination" properties. That would be great...if true; I would love to verify the claim Microbeman made that 1 teaspoon/gal will neutralize both. As we all know, drawing and bubbling water 24 hours ahead of time is a real pain in the ass! And if 2.5ml of MO can get the job done, why use 5ml? Or if 7.5ml is best...then why use 5ml?
Cheers!
Removal of Chloramines
Chloramine is a more persistent disinfectant than
chlorine. As a result it is retained in the water for a
longer period of time. The advantage is that in this
way it can function much longer as a disinfectant than
chlorine. However, it cannot be removed by letting
the water stand for a couple of days as with chloride.
The best way to remove chloramine is to use a water
conditioner that contains a de-chlorination chemical
or by using high quality granular activated carbon
which will absorb the chloramine.
Since chloramnine and chlorine kill bacteria, neutralizing them would be great--it seems that MO might possess some type of "de-chlorination" properties. That would be great...if true; I would love to verify the claim Microbeman made that 1 teaspoon/gal will neutralize both. As we all know, drawing and bubbling water 24 hours ahead of time is a real pain in the ass! And if 2.5ml of MO can get the job done, why use 5ml? Or if 7.5ml is best...then why use 5ml?
Cheers!
I'll trust MM's word. at least for his water. He produces his own proof. A little Google research into water treatment and chlorine tells me that the amount used is in proportion to the amount of organic material and bacteria in the water. The opposite of what we want. They add x amount of chlorine for y amount of contaminants. When we add more contaminants we overpower their efforts. We also give the microbes a place to hide. It doesn't take much. Their playing with minimum amounts. They're in the water business, not the chlorine business.
I like a activated carbon filter when watering the ground. However when and where I don't, I still see organic matter breaking down. Used it for years on compost and it still broke down.
We've all listened to conventional wisdom from unknown sources. It's stuck in our minds to the point we question those actually doing research.
I like a activated carbon filter when watering the ground. However when and where I don't, I still see organic matter breaking down. Used it for years on compost and it still broke down.
We've all listened to conventional wisdom from unknown sources. It's stuck in our minds to the point we question those actually doing research.
HH...I hear you, just hope this is not "bro science"--that would be very disappointing.
The crazy thing is, other than what I read on ICMag and a few other stoner sites, I can not independently confirm/verify that 5ml of MO will neuturalize 1 gallon of water containing chlorine/chloramines.
Most professional studies/research contain "before and after" data with a comparison to an untreated control group, description of the process and procedure, an analysis, and finally a discussion of their conclusion (complete with references). Since water quality varies from region to region, city to city--then we can conclude the levels of chlorine/chormines in my water will not be the same for everyone....so what works for me, may not work for you. Maybe 5ml of MO works for the Northwest--but 10ml of MO will be needed for So Cali...due to the differences. Does anyone know?
I am sure Microbeman will not let us down, when it comes to microbes, he will forget more than I ever will know!
Cheers!
The crazy thing is, other than what I read on ICMag and a few other stoner sites, I can not independently confirm/verify that 5ml of MO will neuturalize 1 gallon of water containing chlorine/chloramines.
Most professional studies/research contain "before and after" data with a comparison to an untreated control group, description of the process and procedure, an analysis, and finally a discussion of their conclusion (complete with references). Since water quality varies from region to region, city to city--then we can conclude the levels of chlorine/chormines in my water will not be the same for everyone....so what works for me, may not work for you. Maybe 5ml of MO works for the Northwest--but 10ml of MO will be needed for So Cali...due to the differences. Does anyone know?
I am sure Microbeman will not let us down, when it comes to microbes, he will forget more than I ever will know!
Cheers!
O
OrganicOzarks
Could just get a chlorine filter. 
Could just get a chlorine filter.
yep...that is the $$$ option. But if MO works...why not? I buy 5 gallons of Blackstrap MO for less than $25--and I am thinking a carbon activated filter will be about 10x that ($250 or more).
I squeak when I walk...not cheap, just frugal.
Cheers!
Eclipse; If you check the search links I posted you may find reference to the origin of using black strap molasses. It was from data received from a colleague with more sensitive chlorination testing gear than I have on hand.
You should also find PDFs I attached from the City of San Fransisco (true, not Science Direct) indicating common knowledge level information concerning neutralization of chloramines with tea, coffee, a slice of orange or cucumber [an old shoe, pinch of dirt, molasses]
You can search google scholar for information regarding neutralization of chloramines by organic matter but be prepared to wade through a lot of difficult concepts.
Note that the amount I stated to be used was approximate. If you think it may not be enough, use a bit more or you can always use ascorbic acid as in the PDFs attached.
To the best of my knowledge an activated carbon filter works the same as any organic matter would (including molasses) to neutralize the chloramines by countering the oxidants. (oxidizers)
[It works over a longer period due to increased adsorbtion surface area?]
You should also find PDFs I attached from the City of San Fransisco (true, not Science Direct) indicating common knowledge level information concerning neutralization of chloramines with tea, coffee, a slice of orange or cucumber [an old shoe, pinch of dirt, molasses]
You can search google scholar for information regarding neutralization of chloramines by organic matter but be prepared to wade through a lot of difficult concepts.
Note that the amount I stated to be used was approximate. If you think it may not be enough, use a bit more or you can always use ascorbic acid as in the PDFs attached.
To the best of my knowledge an activated carbon filter works the same as any organic matter would (including molasses) to neutralize the chloramines by countering the oxidants. (oxidizers)
[It works over a longer period due to increased adsorbtion surface area?]
yup really easy and no fancy stuff needed. my new location don't have an crap in it as its pumped direct from kaweah river. 83 ppm
As its removed so readily by tiny amounts organic matter , nutrients and chemicals then it cannot be much of an issue for anyone.
That includes brewing and fish culture , cant think of any use that would require chlorine/amines removal , saliva and stomach acid makes drinking 1ppm irrelevant.
A faint whiff of chlorine is at least reasurance that the water is safe to drink , unlike half the world and easy to take for granted.
That includes brewing and fish culture , cant think of any use that would require chlorine/amines removal , saliva and stomach acid makes drinking 1ppm irrelevant.
A faint whiff of chlorine is at least reasurance that the water is safe to drink , unlike half the world and easy to take for granted.
Eclipse; If you check the search links I posted you may find reference to the origin of using black strap molasses. It was from data received from a colleague with more sensitive chlorination testing gear than I have on hand.
You should also find PDFs I attached from the City of San Fransisco (true, not Science Direct) indicating common knowledge level information concerning neutralization of chloramines with tea, coffee, a slice of orange or cucumber [an old shoe, pinch of dirt, molasses]
You can search google scholar for information regarding neutralization of chloramines by organic matter but be prepared to wade through a lot of difficult concepts.
Note that the amount I stated to be used was approximate. If you think it may not be enough, use a bit more or you can always use ascorbic acid as in the PDFs attached.
To the best of my knowledge an activated carbon filter works the same as any organic matter would (including molasses) to neutralize the chloramines by countering the oxidants. (oxidizers)
[It works over a longer period due to increased adsorbtion surface area?]
You mean the info from your post https://www.icmag.com/ic/showpost.php?p=4132001&postcount=9?
"1/ ascorbic acid for chloramines or chlorine; 3 grams in 100 gallons will
treat up to 3PPM.
2/ I found your chlorine test interesting and decided to do the same to
put my arguement that reducing sugars in the molasses would handle the
chlorine and chloramine.
Using a similar test strip that tests for both free and total
chlorine, I found my city water to have 0.5ppm free and 1.5 ppm of
free and total chlorine,respectively. Testing 1 gal and 5 gal of city
water, I added 1/4 teaspoon of molasses to each. The reaction was not
instantaneous but the kinetics were faster than I would have guessed.
The one gallon reaction showed no dectable chlorine of either type
withing 3 minutes. At 5 gallons, I obtained the same result within 20
minutes.
Chlorine levels are regulated a 4 ppm maximum
4 ppm = 4mg/l
Chloramine concentrations are expressed as chlorine equivalents, so one uses the molecular weight of chlorine for calculations.
One molecule of reducing sugar will react with one molecule of chlorine.
Therefore, on a weight basis, one needs 4mg/l *(the molecular weight of the reducing sugar/the molecular weight of chlorine)/ (the decimal fraction of reducing sugar in your molasses)
I’ve seen numbers ranging from 15% to 50% for the percent reducing sugar in molasses
The reducing sugars are going to be a mixture of mono and disaccharides. Molecular weights = 180 and 342, respectively
Chlorine molecular weight =70
Therefore, worst case, one needs 4*(342/70)/.15 =130mg/L molasses
I saw a recipe by Elaine that calls for 1 oz molasses in 5 gallons. That’s 1 part in 640 or 1563 ppm .
So, worse case you have a 12 fold excess.
Run these same numbers for pure glucose (a reducing monosaccharide) and you end up needing 10ppm glucose. When i need dilution water for spraying, I use a 20-30 ppm glucose and let it sit overnight.
I continue to be perplexed by the amount of hand wringing that
goes on over chlorine and chloramine. These both function as
oxidizing agents and, as such, are destroyed by reducing agents.
Cane molasses runs at 15-20% reducing sugar.
Regulations allow a maximum of 4ppm chlorine, expressed as Cl2.
Allowing for the molecular weight difference between Cl2 the
reducing sugars in molasses, you would need 10ppm reducing sugar to
react with the chlorine.
At 15% reducing sugar, you need 66ppm molasses.
I put my molasses in first, give it some time to react and don't
worry. "
So that is all you have? Sorry, unable to locate/identify those SF links you referred to, oh well.
BTW...a little disappointed with your reciprocity...lets just say, every time you asked me for some "science"--it was "cheerfully" provided to you (no hunting required).
Cheers!
I'm not quick to endorse anybody. I know MM puts his stuff under a microscope. If chlorine had an adverse affect on his teas, i believe he would know. Perhaps one day he'll treat us to some pictures.
Besides I did my own research. Far from an expert, reading about how and why they treat water tells a lot.
Different areas do have different water yet their goals are the same. They treat their water with the minimum amount possible to make it safe. The amount that makes it to the our tap is pretty much the same until you add in other factors like old rusty pipes.
There really isn't that much in it.
I like to present an experiment. Drink some tap water than eat some food. If your food still digests, you still have live bacteria in your body. The chlorine was overpowered, out numbered.
You'll read about all the problems with chlorine elsewhere. It's the first thing you learn about organics. Folks like to repeat it a lot. I started reading here about citric acid and molasses, did the research and watched my own results.
I don't know how much molasses to use. I know it works so I'll accept a little "bro science". I do add a little redundancy, I add compost. Sometimes I add compost and let it sit overnight and use the tea to brew with. Sometimes I just brew tea and don't worry about it.
I have no reason to back MM other than he is trying to help us all grow good weed naturally with minimal effort.While he may try to sell you a microscope or a tea brewer, he has no vested interest in the molasses business as far as I know. Financially it is in his best interest to steer you towards brewing the finest aerated tea possible.
Everything is much easier than we make it.
Besides I did my own research. Far from an expert, reading about how and why they treat water tells a lot.
Different areas do have different water yet their goals are the same. They treat their water with the minimum amount possible to make it safe. The amount that makes it to the our tap is pretty much the same until you add in other factors like old rusty pipes.
There really isn't that much in it.
I like to present an experiment. Drink some tap water than eat some food. If your food still digests, you still have live bacteria in your body. The chlorine was overpowered, out numbered.
You'll read about all the problems with chlorine elsewhere. It's the first thing you learn about organics. Folks like to repeat it a lot. I started reading here about citric acid and molasses, did the research and watched my own results.
I don't know how much molasses to use. I know it works so I'll accept a little "bro science". I do add a little redundancy, I add compost. Sometimes I add compost and let it sit overnight and use the tea to brew with. Sometimes I just brew tea and don't worry about it.
I have no reason to back MM other than he is trying to help us all grow good weed naturally with minimal effort.While he may try to sell you a microscope or a tea brewer, he has no vested interest in the molasses business as far as I know. Financially it is in his best interest to steer you towards brewing the finest aerated tea possible.
Everything is much easier than we make it.
SpicySativa
Member
I like the peace of mind I get from filtering my chloraminated water through a Small Boy dechlorinating filter (with the upgraded filter element for chloramine removal). It was worth the $125 or so I spent on it.
Are there other (cheaper) ways to remove chlorine/chloramine? Of course. But, for ease and convenience, I like my Small Boy.
Are there other (cheaper) ways to remove chlorine/chloramine? Of course. But, for ease and convenience, I like my Small Boy.
