Chanting Growers Group

[BushyOldGrower]

Oh, you should be proud. My son is quite a chip off the old block and a buddhist already too. He just loved my Meditating Buddha statue.

I forgot to mention that the reason we thought we could have been abducted is because we lost a couple hours and were shivering when it was over. We don't remember anything but the light that came and then faded so it's possible we weren't abducted at all. Not claiming that but it is possible. BOG

 

[SoCal Hippy]

Gosho Quote

Gosho Quote

Here I will make a great vow. Though I might be offered the
rulership of Japan if I would only abandon the Lotus Sutra, accept
the teachings of the Meditation Sutra, and look forward to rebirth
in the Pure Land, though I might be told that my father and mother
will have their heads cut off if I do not recite the Nembutsu -
whatever obstacles I might encounter, so long as persons of wisdom
do not prove my teachings to be false, I will never yield! All other
troubles are no more to me than dust before the wind.

(WND, 280)
The Opening of the Eyes
Written to Shijo Kingo in February 1272

 

[BushyOldGrower]

Teaching the Truth...

Teaching the Truth...

The truth must be what we tell and believe because it matters.

Stories are fine to imagine but reality is what matters most. Knowing ourselves is the most important thing in understanding our surroundings IMHO. In the Aquarian Gospel of Jesus the Christ Jesus is asked what is the most important thing and the second most important thing to know.

He replied so wisely, "to know thyself and the second most important thing is also to know thyself." If we knew ourselves we would know who we really are hence who all of us really are in fact because...we are all together. In the one love we share with all living creatures. The one life force in the universe is love.

Great Masters showed us that ascension is possible and preferable to resurrection because when we do this we take our bodies with us and never need to reincarnate again. Jesus and others achieved this and hence immortality.

So Cal Hippy correctly pointed out that we didn't start out immortal but from simple forms of life actually. This is the evolutionary process, spiritual and physical that I saw in my vision. The grand part was that I indeed had made it to salvation or was promised that I would which was the same thing to me. The system is divine however and better than we could imagine. In the end we all make it because there is only one way in the evolutionary process. There can be setbacks but the same conclusion is bound to occur. We all evolve despite the fact that as a people we never seem to learn. BOG


My 7 week Sour Bubble will make the planet a more peaceful place to a small degree so Buddha should approve...

 

[SoCal Hippy]

Awesome pic BOG!!!

Awesome pic BOG!!!

I'm so jealous. Hey! We are still on the 1st page with minimal posts.

President Ikeda's daily guidance (For Today and Tomorrow, December 29)
reads: "Who is truly great? I hope you can develop the ability to discern true
human greatness. A great person is someone who forges unity among human beings
through sincere dialogue, armed with a solid philosophy, feet firmly planted on
the ground. A great person is one who lives among the people and earns their
unshakable trust. Fickle popularity and temporary fads are nothing but
illusions."

 

[SoCal Hippy]

a quote worthwhile

a quote worthwhile

and the reason I began chanting;

from another thread:

"We are a movement of lay followers of Nichiren's teachings who
believe that Nam Myoho Renge Kyo is the key to world peace and human
happiness and that our practice offers a simple and expedient way for
ordinary people of all walks, faiths, religions, backgrounds, to
attain Buddhahood as common mortals. We believe that the guidance of
our organization and Nichiren's teachings can speed people to that
end. Our religious movement is not a classic religion but instead
something like a life-philosophy. The Lotus Sutra enables people to
master the art of living and to use all the teachings of all the
religions that came before to build a better world."

 

[BushyOldGrower]

This is what Einstein was talking about when he said, "what the world needs is a new religion that trancends the personal God" or something like that. I find this to be unique among religions but I believe in GOD. Just as Buddhists do. Not as a bearded man throwing lightnign bolts and intervening in daily affairs however. That was a lesser vehicle used out of expediency.

Now we are mature enough to perhaps grasp the real truth that a system exists in which we all share a part of the Godhead. Where karma governs and where life itself is promoted by the power of love. I see it, the perfect diamond! To comprehend the complex concept all at once can be overwhelming so we tend to talk about the parts.

Unavoidable how this process is a fishing in of people at the start but once taught the whole concept there is no other religion. There is just one truth and many ways of trying to say or understand it. There is just one universe comprised of how many realities? What an incredible universe and how incredible is it that we ponder this at all?

Could my Seiko watch have accidentely just fallen together? Could a human function without DNA? No. And could the universe just be an accident? I doubt that either. BOG

 

[BushyOldGrower]

Tom, I got the books. The Buddhist Dictionary and the Teachings of Nichiren Diashonin as well as another booklet. I may be busy for some time but I promise to read it and we have already begun. thank you my brother! Karma shall repay you. BOG

 

[Babbabud]

PTD you have been our guide and friend , keeping this thread alive and on track. This thread has had a beautiful 7 month run. I myself would really like to see it continue. Thanks for the guidance so far Tom . Please drop in and let us know how you are. NamMyohoRengeKyo

 

[Guest]

Long Overdo Greetings to All

Long Overdo Greetings to All

Just some thoughts to share with you all. As well as Special Thanks for being a part of the everchanging sagas of my life. I have so much appreciated the Thread and all who have participated with me in the past 7 months. There is nothing familiar in my life right now and the guidance and love I received in here is definitely a great part of what has sustained me and got me through it all.
Seven years ago, there were some pretty painful occurences around me involving our local organization and people whom I thought I was close to and along with my hellish life condition, it was then that I chose to step back and look at my faith, what I believed in and why I was doing what I was doing. 7 months ago, I returned full force and was encouraged through the people in here. I recently found myself in the same situation in the recent past, faced with the same choices. And I have to say I contemplated the same choice. However, I looked at my life and was reminded by SOCAL(thank you so much my friend) that with great benefit comes great obstacles. The benefits in my life have been greater than they ever have in every aspect of my life. There is noone or nothing worth the loss of having NamMyoHoRengeKyo in your life. My youngest son rebuilt and finished my new butsudan with a beautiful egyptian gold flake paint and I now start the next 15 years anew, with new hopes and dreams and goals in life. Tho there is saddness in some of it the happiness far outweighs the scales. You accept the good with the bad and continue.
This thread was created with the heart of sharing and propagating NamMyohoRengeKyo and Nichiren Daishonin Buddhism. Thank You so Much SoCAl for keeping it alive. And Bog, I have found encouragement through your eyes, as a child seeing a Christmas Tree. This thread is responsible for shakabuing alot of people. And so therefore, it has great value.
My Best and Love to you all. There is always greatness around us. We just have to open our eyes and see it. Southern Girl

 

[Kalbhairav]

Hi all...

Just thought i might make an apperance here on this rather large thread lol. The reason for this is that I'm at this present time just finishing a degree in Eastern philosophy and Indic religions.. My major is Tibetan Buddhism and the many faiths and philosophies within the corpus of Hinduism. I'm having the pleasure of being taught by some of the finest academic minds in these areas. The reason why i'm studying this is partly from spending nearly two years in India which finaly culminated in the desire to study eastern religion.

At present and in the past three years I've studied Theravada Buddhism (both orthodox and esoteric), all the major schools of Tibetan Buddhism (Gelukpa, Nyingma, Kagyu and Sakya), and the almost hetrodox systems of yoga and thought within Hindu Saivism (the religions concerning lord Shiva). Also the vast corpus of Tibetan and Indian Tantra, the Vedas, the Upanishads, Samkhya, the Yoga Sutra, the Indian epics, the Purana's and a little bit of Taoism etc etc etc.. I'm no expert, and wouldn't claim to be having never actually practised any of the things mentioned above.. i'm just a book worm whos trying very hard to get a semi good degree lol.

Anyway would love to talk/debate, learn, question with anybody who is interested... I might even get round to reading this whole thread at some point lol.. Hope to hear from you guys soon..

Kal.

 

[Kalbhairav]

Here is a question to ponder....

In the year 792 within the so called 'second' transmission of Buddhism to Tibet, at a place called Samye, two great scholars met to debate the nature of enlightenment. One was named Hashang Mahayana, an advocate of the Chinese Ch'an school; while the other was the great Indian scholar Kamalasila.. a follower of the 'five paths and ten levels' school of thought..

H. Mahayana taught that enlightenment was attained suddenly, as if through a flash of insight, after which all mentle afflictions would be eliminated. His opponent, Kamalasila was of the opinion that enlightenment could only be won as if one were climbing a mountain.. that is slowly, one step at a time, in stages...

What was at stake here was the belief of all Tibetan people. The present King Trisong Detsen would allow the winner of the debate to spread his doctrine throughout Tibet..

This, within Tibetan Buddhist history, is said to be a major turning point in the evolution of Tibetan Buddhism...

WHAT DO YOU THINK??? Which from your experience and thoughts is the true nature of enlightenment??

Hope you enjoy... Kal.

 

[SoCal Hippy]

Welcome Kal

Welcome Kal

Kal, I hope you do have some time and read some very insightful posts on this thread regarding Nichiren Daishonin's Buddhism. You have probably studied more of the different Buddhism's than I, but what you will find in Nam myoho renge kyo is what Nichiren defined as 'True Buddhism'. Welcome your thoughts, questions, etc.

SoGirl, I don't deserve much credit at all here. My experience of the last 7mos is so similar to yours. I am but the 'fly on the horses' tail enjoying the journey'. My hope is that this thread will continue in its original thought and purpose.

"All disciples and lay supporters of Nichiren should chant Nam-myoho-
renge-kyo with the spirit of many in body but one in mind (Itai Doshin),
transcending all differences among themselves to become as
inseparable as fish and the water in which they swim. This spiritual
bond is the basis for the universal transmission of the ultimate Law
of life and death. Herein lies the true goal of Nichiren's
propagation. When you are so united, even the great desire for wide-
spread propagation can be fulfilled."

(WND, 217)
The Heritage of the Ultimate Law of Life
Written to Sairen-bo Nichijo on February 11, 1272

 

[PassTheDoobie]

The Heritage of the Ultimate Law of Life

The Heritage of the Ultimate Law of Life

Written by Nichiren

I have just carefully read your letter. To reply, the ultimate Law of life and death as transmitted by the Buddha to all living beings is Myoho-renge-kyo. The five characters of Myoho-renge-kyo were transferred from Shakyamuni and Many Treasures, the two Buddhas inside the treasure tower, to Bodhisattva Superior Practices, carrying on a heritage unbroken since the infinite past. Myo represents death and ho, life. Living beings that pass through the two phases of life and death are the entities of the Ten Worlds, or the entities of Myoho-renge-kyo.

T’ien-t’ai says that one should understand that living beings and their environments, and the causes and effects at work within them, are all the Law of renge (the lotus). {1} Here “all livings beings and their environments” means the phenomena of life and death. Thus, it is clear that, where life and death exist, cause and effect, or the Law of the lotus, is at work.

The Great Teacher Dengyo states, “The two phases of life and death are the wonderful workings of one mind. The two ways of existence and non-existence are the true functions of an inherently enlightened mind.” {2} No phenomena—either heaven or earth, yin or yang, {3} the sun or the moon, the five planets, {4} or any of the worlds from hell to Buddhahood—are free from the two phases of life and death. Life and death are simply the two functions of Myoho-renge-kyo. In his Great Concentration and Insight, T’ien-t’ai says, “Arising is the rising of the essential nature of the Law, and extinction is the extinction of that nature.” Shakyamuni and Many Treasures, the two Buddhas, are also the two phases of life and death.

Shakyamuni Buddha who attained enlightenment countless kalpas ago, the Lotus Sutra that leads all people to Buddhahood, and we ordinary human beings are in no way different or separate from one another. To chant Nam-myoho-renge-kyo with this realization is to inherit the ultimate Law of life and death. This is a matter of the utmost importance for Nichiren’s disciples and lay supporters., and this is what it means to embrace the Lotus Sutra.

For one who summons up one’s faith and chants Nam-myoho-renge-kyo with the profound insight that now is the last moment of one’s life, the sutra proclaims: “When the lives of these persons comes to an end, they will be received into the hands of a thousand Buddhas, who will free them from all fear and keep them from falling into the evil paths of existence.” {5} How can we possibly hold back our tears at the inexpressible joy of knowing that not just one or two, not just one hundred or two hundred, but as many as a thousand Buddhas will come to greet us with open arms!

Concerning one who disbelieves the Lotus Sutra, because the sutra states, ”When his life comes to an end he will enter the Avichi hell,” {6} the wardens of hell will surely come for one and take one away by the hands. How pitiful! The ten kings {7} of the world of the dead will then pass judgment and the heavenly messengers {8} who have been with one since birth will berate one for one’s evil deeds.

Think of those thousand Buddhas extending their hands to all of Nichiren’s disciples and lay supporters who chant Nam-myoho-renge-kyo as melons or moonflowers extending their slender vines. My followers are now able to accept and uphold the Lotus sutra because of strong ties they formed with it in their past existences. They are certain to obtain the fruit of Buddhahood in the future. The heritage of the Lotus Sutra flows within the lives of those who never forsake it in any lifetime whatsoever—whether in the past, the present, or the future. But those who disbelieve and slander the Lotus sutra will immediately “destroy all the seeds for becoming a Buddha in this world.” {9} Because they cut themselves off from the potential to attain enlightenment, they do not share the heritage of the ultimate Law of life and death.

All disciples and lay supporters of Nichiren should chant Nam-myoho-renge-kyo with the spirit of many in body but one in mind, transcending all differences among themselves {10} to become as inseparable as fish and the water in which they swim. This spiritual bond is the basis for the universal transmission of the ultimate Law of life and death. Herein lies the true goal of Nichiren’s propagation. When you are so united, even the great desire for widespread propagation can be fulfilled. But if any of Nichiren’s disciples disrupt the unity of many in body but one in mind, they would be like warriors who destroy their own castle from within.

 

[PassTheDoobie]

(continued)

(continued)

Nichiren has been trying to awaken all the people of Japan to faith in the Lotus Sutra so that they too can share in the heritage and attain Buddhahood. But instead they have persecuted me in various ways and finally had me banished to this island. You have followed Nichiren, however, and met with suffering as a result. It pains me deeply to think of your anguish. Gold can be neither burned by fire nor corroded or swept away by water, but iron is vulnerable to both. A worthy person is like gold, a fool like iron. You are like pure gold because you embrace the “gold” of the Lotus Sutra. The sutra states, “Just as among all the mountains, Mount Sumeru is foremost, so this Lotus Sutra is likewise.” {11} It also states, “The good fortune you gain thereby…cannot be burned by fire or washed away by water.” {12}

It must be ties of karma from the distant past that have destined you to become my disciple at a time like this. Shakyamuni and Many Treasures certainly realized this truth. The sutra’s statement, “Those persons who had heard the Law dwelled here and there in various Buddha lands, constantly reborn in company with their teachers,” {13} cannot be false in any way.

How admirable that you have asked about the transmission of the ultimate Law of life and death! I have never heard of anyone who has asked such a question. I have answered in complete detail in this letter, so please take it deeply to heart. The important point is to carry out your practice confident that Nam-myoho-renge-kyo alone is the heritage that was transferred from Shakyamuni and Many Treasures to Bodhisattva Superior Practices.

The function of fire is to burn and give light. The function of water is to wash away filth. The winds blow away dust and breath life into plants, animals, and human beings. The earth produces grasses and trees, and heaven provides nourishing moisture. The five characters of Myoho-renge-kyo are also like that. They are the cluster of blessings brought by the Bodhisattvas of the Earth, disciples of the Buddha in his true identity. The Lotus sutra says that Bodhisattva Superior Practices will appear now, in the Latter Day of the Law, to propagate this teaching, but has this happened? Whether or not Bodhisattva Superior Practices has appeared in this world, Nichiren has already made a start in propagating this teaching.

Be resolved to summon forth the great power of faith, and chant Nam-myoho-renge-kyo with the prayer that your faith will be steadfast and correct at the moment of death. Never seek any other way to inherit the ultimate Law of life and death, and manifest it in your life. Only then will you realize that earthly desires are enlightenment and that the sufferings of birth and death are nirvana. Even embracing the Lotus Sutra would be useless without the heritage of faith.

I will go into particulars again on another occasion.

With my deep respect,
Nichiren,
The shramana of Japan

The eleventh day of the second month in the ninth year of Bun’ei (1272), cyclical sign mizunoe-saru

Reply to the Honorable Sairen-bo

Notes

1. The Profound Meaning of the Lotus Sutra.
2. The Essential Doctrines Transmitted within the Tendai Lotus School.
3. Yin and yang are two universal principals of ancient Chinese philosophy. Yin is the negative, dark, and feminine principle; yang is the positive, bright, and masculine principle. Their interaction was thought to determine the destiny of all things.
4. Mercury, Venus, Mars, Jupiter, and Saturn. In the thirteenth century the more distant planets were as yet unknown, and the Earth was not known to be among the planets.
5. Lotus sutra, chap. 28.
6. Ibid., chap. 3.
7. Symbolic figures from popular religious tradition. One Chinese concept viewed hell as a demonic court of law where the dead were tried for their evil deeds.
8. Gods said to dwell on one’s shoulders from the time of birth and to record ones every act. They represent the law of cause and effect at work in one’s life.
9. Lotus Sutra, chap. 3.
10. The phrase “transcending all differences among themselves” could be rendered literally as “without any thought of self or other, this or that.” This is not a denial of individuality, but rather urges the bridging of gaps between people that arise from self-centeredness.
11. Lotus Sutra, chap. 23
12. Ibid.
13. Ibid., chap. 7

 

[PassTheDoobie]

Background

Background

This letter, dated the eleventh day of the second month in 1272, was sent by Nichiren Daishonin to Sairen-bo Nichijo, a former Tendai priest who, for reasons that are unclear, was also living in exile on Sado Island. Details about Sairen-bo are scarce, but it is known that he was originally from Kyoto, and that he had studied at Mount Hiei, the seat of the Tendai school, before his exile. He was also present at the Tsukahara Debate, held in front of Sammaia-do, the Daishonin’s dwelling at Tsukahara, on the sixteenth and seventeenth days of the first month in 1272. In this debate the Daishonin was the clear victor over Pure Land, True Word and other priests from various provinces of northern Japan. A number of people converted to his teachings at this time, among them Sairen-bo.

Sairen-bo was a highly educated priest to whom the Daishonin sent several important essays, including “The True Aspect of All Phenomena” and “The Heritiage of the Ultimate law of Life.” He had a number of unresolved questions about Buddhist theory, and he addressed them one by one to the Daishonin, who in turn answered these questions in written form. The Daishonin praised him, saying, “How admirable that you have asked about the transmission of the ultimate Law of life and death!” In his reply the Daishonin offers a look into the wonder of the Buddha’s own enlightenment, as well as the practical means whereby ordinary people may attain the same end.

In the first paragraph, the Daishonin states that Nam-myoho-renge-kyo is the heritage of the ultimate Law of life and that the transmission of this Law is made from the Buddha to all living beings. Then he refers to the question of how we can inherit the ultimate Law of life and manifest it within ourselves.

This Law flows in the depths of the lives of those who believe in the teachings of the Lotus Sutra, practice in exact accord with them, and chant the daimoku. The Daishonin declares that there is no distinction whatsoever between Shakyamuni Buddha, the Lotus Sutra, and us, ordinary people.

Viewed from the standpoint of the Daishonin’s Buddhism, this can be taken as a declaration that there is no difference or separation between Nichiren Daishonin as the Buddha of the Latter Day of the Law, The Law of Nam-myoho-renge-kyo—or the Gohonzon which embodies that Law—and ourselves, who chant Nam-myoho-renge-kyo.

In terms of time, the heritage—the mystic relationship between the Law and the lives of the people—courses eternally through past, present, and future, unbroken in any lifetime. In terms of space, the Daishonin proclaims that the heritage of the ultimate Law flows within the lives of his disciples and lay supporters who work in perfect unity for the realization of a peaceful world and happiness for all humanity.

Having stated that the ultimate Law is within the lives of human beings, Nichiren Daishonin further explains how to inherit the Law. He emphasizes the importance of the attitude “now is the last moment…,” in order to manifest innate Buddhahood, a state that transcends both life and death.

In discussing the thousand Buddhas and the ten kings of hell, he reveals the continuity of cause and effect spanning past, present, and future. Whatever state of life predominates while one is alive will continue in the next life. Whether one can succeed to the heritage of the Law depends entirely on one’s faith. This is why he strictly warns in his conclusion, “Even embracing the Lotus Sutra would be useless without the heritage of faith.”

From WND Pages 216 thru 219

 

[SoCal Hippy]

Nice to see the post PTD

Nice to see the post PTD

from Toda's lecture:

On `Ji ga toku bur-rai' the Ongi Kuden elucidates:

"This verse clearly expounds the true meaning of Sanjin. Ji means
the Nine Worlds and Ga, the Buddha's World. These Ten Worlds are
indicative of the eternal and original Sanjin or the True Buddha who
made His advent. The True Buddha who had obtained both Ji and Ga
appeared. This verse clarifies that the True Buddha originally has
the Ten Worlds in His life. Ga means Hosshin, Butsu equals Hoshin,
and Rai is Ojin. These three had been obtained by the venerable
Buddha of the infinite past. Consider the verse: "We have obtained
the priceless gem of perfection without earnestly seeking it." (a
passage from the Shinge Chapter of the Hokekyo). The teachings of
Kempon Onju (to reveal the Buddha's eternal life) is not found in
any other teaching but only in the Hokekyo. Nichiren Daishonin and
His disciples who chant Nam-myoho-renge-kyo now in Mappo are the
devotees of `Ji ga toku bur-rai'." (Toda's 'Lecture on The
Sutra')

 

[SoCal Hippy]

Gosho Quote

Gosho Quote

Grass without roots will die in no time, and a river without a
source will not flow far. A child without parents is looked down
upon. Nam-myoho-renge-kyo, the heart of the "Life Span" chapter, is
the mother of all Buddhas throughout the ten directions and the
three existences.

(WND, 184)
The Essence of the "Life Span" Chapter
Recipient unknown; written on April 17, 1271

 

[PassTheDoobie]

Opinion

Opinion

Kalbhairav says:

“Here is a question to ponder....

H. Mahayana taught that enlightenment was attained suddenly, as if through a flash of insight, after which all mentle afflictions would be eliminated. His opponent, Kamalasila was of the opinion that enlightenment could only be won as if one were climbing a mountain.. that is slowly, one step at a time, in stages...

WHAT DO YOU THINK??? Which from your experience and thoughts is the true nature of enlightenment??”

My brother, from all that I have experienced and pondered and concluded, it is my opinion that they are the same thing. They are the two sides of a coin. One never exists without the other; even if the influence of the latter, for the former to manifest, is not present or visible. According to the Lotus Sutra, we do not attain extinction, but are born again and again in the saha world to reveal the True Law and sow the seeds of Buddhahood based on the propagation of Nichiren’s teachings that all things are manifestations of this Law of Myoho-renge-kyo.

So if anyone asks who taught the Bodhisattvas of the Earth, understand that according to the Buddhism of Nichiren Daishonin, in everything I have ever studied or heard about it; it was not Shakyamuni Buddha, but the Buddha of beginningless time, whom taught and leads these disciples, all now Buddha’s themselves, in the transient Identity of Bodhisattva Superior Practices. By revealing the true Identity of being the Buddha of the Latter Day of the Law, Nichiren allows us all to discard our transient Identities as Bodhisattvas of the Earth to share in the lifeblood of the Law, the kechimyaku (heritage of the Law), and establish ourselves as True Buddhas too.

I believe this is why we can summon Buddha wisdom and Buddha powers to influence our environments when we chant daimoku and stimulate or enter our Buddha life condition, which is activated by our invocation of this sacred and universal truth. When we “Praise and devote our lives to the mystic Law of cause and effect as we have been taught by the Buddha of beginningless time (Nam-myoho-renge-kyo), we can manifest the tenth world as common mortals and grow toward the realization from the depths of our lives that earthly desires are enlightenment and that the sufferings of birth and death are nirvana.

This realization is the foundation of living a life of indestructible happiness, isn’t it? If your next moment were to be your last, would you worry about bills that haven’t been paid? Or the new car, or job, or clothes you want? No it would be about your own mortality, the appreciation for what you have been so fortunate to encounter that you may now be missing: your family, your friends; the truly important things. If we can achieve a practice based on faith where we live our lives with the priorities reflecting Buddha wisdom and the important things being the center of our focus and prayer, this realization is absolutely guaranteed to occur by the True Buddha himself.

Count me as blessed, I guess, because for me that’s good enough. I guess I’ll just keep after it confident that, just as I cannot see my hair growing, it is.

My love to you SoCal

Thomas

 

[GordyP]

The Great Debate

The Great Debate

Hey Kalbhairav,

I'm curious to know the historical result of that debate in 792 you spoke of in your posting. How was the "winner" determined, and which scholar did Trisong Detsen then allow to spread their doctrine to the people of Tibet? Are Tibetan Buddhists of today still following the doctrine and words of the winner of that debate? Was the "loser" exiled from Tibet?

In a universe where time never began and will never end, why is the quickest path to enlightenment always sought? Regardless of when one eventually reaches it, won't there remain an eternity to exist in that realm? Why are the illusions of time and speed given such an important role in attaining enlightenment and Buddahood by scholars from all Buddhist beliefs? Theoretically, won't all beings eventually attain a state of enlightenment, once they stop putzing around and begin to get a clue to finding the path? Then once on that path, do the quickest receive a greater reward (better enlightenment?) than do the slowest? I can't help being somewhat skeptical about the importance of time in the scheme of things.

I'll see you all there . . . eventually.

 

[Kalbhairav]

Hey Kalbhairav,

I'm curious to know the historical result of that debate in 792 you spoke of in your posting. How was the "winner" determined, and which scholar did Trisong Detsen then allow to spread their doctrine to the people of Tibet? Are Tibetan Buddhists of today still following the doctrine and words of the winner of that debate? Was the "loser" exiled from Tibet?

In a universe where time never began and will never end, why is the quickest path to enlightenment always sought? Regardless of when one eventually reaches it, won't there remain an eternity to exist in that realm? Why are the illusions of time and speed given such an important role in attaining enlightenment and Buddahood by scholars from all Buddhist beliefs? Theoretically, won't all beings eventually attain a state of enlightenment, once they stop putzing around and begin to get a clue to finding the path? Then once on that path, do the quickest receive a greater reward (better enlightenment?) than do the slowest? I can't help being somewhat skeptical about the importance of time in the scheme of things.

I'll see you all there . . . eventually.

As this is a thread exclusively to do with Nichiren I will (try to) answer the question above before reading this thread entirely to try and get a tiny little glimpse of what Nichiren is all about before posting anything else here...

To my limited understanding the Samye debates were as much to do with politics as to do with spirituality. It was important to the Tibetan Kings (bar one - 'Lang Darma') that the tracing back of their early Buddhist lineage be to India instead of China. This was the early stage of the 'First transmission' (in my oringinal post i believe i said it was the 'second transmission'.. my mistake here)... which means that Buddhism was just being established in Tibet... If you can somehow take yourself there in your imagination, and see a country with many different traditions floating around with no real concrete stability. Trisong Detsen wanted to unite Tibet under one belief so that he might have better control over his people (Tibetans believe Trisong Detsen to be the incarnation of the Buddha of Wisdom - Manjusri). There was currently within Tibet at the time the Bon religion, many varying forms of Buddhism including 'left' and 'right' handed Tantra (dark and white??). The debates were in no way the final say in the matter. There were many who believed strictly in either 'fast' or 'gradual' enlightenment according to the doctrines of Indian and Chinese Mahayana. Here is an extract (very breifly) summarizing the position of H. Mahayana and Kamalasilas responce...

"He who has no thoughts and inclinations at all can be fully delivered from
Phenominal Life. The absence of any thought, search, or investigation
brings about the non-perception of the reality of seperate entities. In
In such a manner one can attain (Buddhahood) at once, like (a
Bodhisattva) who has attainted the tenth stage."

Kamalasila replied:

"If one has no thought concerning any of the elements of existence and
does not direct the mind upon them, this does not mean that one can
cease to remember all that one has experienced and to think of it.....If the
mere absence of (consciouness and) recollection is regarded as sufficient,
it follows that in a swoon or at the time of intoxication one comes to the
state where there is no constructive thought....Without correct analysis
there is no means of attaining liberation from constructive thought."
('Pudon's account' in Powers)

So GordyP.. I don't think the debate itself is anything to do with 'time' but whether the Chinese position was infact inciting hereises which went aganist the authenticity of the Sanskrit originals of the Buddhist canon.

Of course such occurances of these sorts are political in nature and by no means mystical... rather the balance of power in a country not yet united under common rule. It was Kamalasila who won the debate, but that didn't mean that H. Mahayana's doctrine wasn't thought of highly after this event.. Indeed the Tantric doctrine, which are heavily entangled in Tibetan Buddhism, expound such a point as H. Mahayana's very clearly.. That it is possible to attain the lofty heights of Buddhahood in one life time instead of the required three aeons (incalculable amount of years) of the Mahayana Sutras... But thats a different story..

To answer your question about 'time' and 'speed' of enlightenment then i would have to say that if the 'overwhelming desire to help others' ('bodhicitta' as expounded by Santideva in 'The Bodhicaryavatara') is cultivated to its fullest, then the desire for enlightenment is fueled by the wanting to releave all sentient beings of never ending suffering (the cycle of samsara). In theory (as far as i know), through the very power of ignorance, it IS NOT likely that we will all attain enlightenment. One must remember also that according to the Mahayana there are two types of enlightenment.. that of the 'arhat', and that of Buddhahood.. The latter, it seems, being viewed very much higher than the other (according to scripture). The 'arhat', leaves his/her body to attain nirvana, while the bodhisattva who has cultivated 'bodhicitta' will do what ever it takes to assume ultimate power ONLY to help all those within his/her reach to end suffering. There are incalculable amount of universies in which sentient beings exist, and if 'bodhicitta is within you then one will stop at nothing to help them.. Even if our own universe were to end then there are other universies... stretching beyond our imagination.. If this is the case then there will always be ssuffering, and there will always be sentient beings within the clutches of suffering..... and so there must always be those to help them.. Time is only within our minds because we have a span of life.. but does it really exist outside our lives and minds??

To give an answer to my own question as to "what do you think??"... well, i have absolutely no idea lol......... i would much rather sit on the fence.. When one studies many different opinions, philosophies etc, it is hard to come to any conclusion about anything at all lol. Maybe if you give me another twenty years i might (unlikley!) have a tiny little idea about this kind of thing. I believe in taking a second at a time, being within every moment full heartedly no matter how mundane.. Such questions after writing thousands of words on such subjects mean little to me any more.. I just don't really care about enlightenment at this time. If i arrive at it,..... then great..... if not, there's always tomorrow lol.

Thanks for letting me chat mindlessly here on this thread.

Best wishes to you all... Kal.