Beta Test Team
Member
Yea, that's why Welthink is getting some attention: plug and play. It's UL listed, so that's good.
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Philips developed the 315 for industrial/commercial applications. That market is enormous compared to ours, and the usual voltages are 208/240/277. As I understand it, not well, it's more expensive to build low freq electronic ballasts for 120v, so given that residential isn't the target market Philips didn't do it that way.
It creates an opening for Welthink, catering to a much smaller specialty market.
i was told by a guy distributing a setup using the wellthinks in denver area that they are low frequency.
I'm sure that's true of their model for the 315. It has to be. Not likely for the rest of their lineup.
Everywhere I look, it says "call for pricing" & the combo deals are actually more expensive than the advanced lighting deal and a voltage converter. That's easily the best deal for tinkerers. Plug & play at 120v? $450-550.
Unless you get lucky on something used, 315w systems are pricey. I know a lot of people would like to find a less expensive way, but there's no getting around the fact that a special ballast is required from philips, welthink or maybe some others.
I don't recall who it was, but someone found this dealer fairly recently. It's the best price that I've seen for a new Philips ballast @ $162.50.
http://www.ballastdiscount.com/metal-halide/iztmh210315rlfm.html
http://www.ballastdiscount.com/metal-halide/iztmh210315rlfm.html
i agree 450-500 does seem a bit pricey...
but
people buy nice name brand bulbs 70-100$, big nice 8" ducted hood; 150-200$, and a digital ballast: 150-200$
looking at 400-500 anyhow for a "fancy" 1kw setup
my 2c
but
people buy nice name brand bulbs 70-100$, big nice 8" ducted hood; 150-200$, and a digital ballast: 150-200$
looking at 400-500 anyhow for a "fancy" 1kw setup
my 2c
LargePrime
Member
awe, I was just poking a little fun. Cheap DIY Vs super high tech awesome.
no offense was intended. i hope none occurred.
Also, how many of you are there?
Beta Test Team
Member
None was taken, especially now I see it was good natured ribbing.
There are just the two of us that have been working together for while now. But we're starting a new project soon we hope that will attract other scientists (kind of like what IHA has done in the past).
Hey Beta, have you managed to get your new room set up? Would be nice to see how you have everything situated.
My lights came in about a week ago. A lot brighter than I thought they'd be. They also put out more heat than I thought they would. I can't see running these things without the same type of exhaust setup I'd use for a non-air cooled hps. 2 ft below a single lamp in a 4x4 tent with extraction fan was reading low 80's temps. Ambient room temps about 70.
Not complaining it's just I was under the impression these lights run pretty cool.
The light itself is beautiful and feels good to be working underneath. Working under an hps to me has a sorta chaotic feel to it. With these I feel a more balanced, harmonious, gentle and stimulating kinda vibe.
My lights came in about a week ago. A lot brighter than I thought they'd be. They also put out more heat than I thought they would. I can't see running these things without the same type of exhaust setup I'd use for a non-air cooled hps. 2 ft below a single lamp in a 4x4 tent with extraction fan was reading low 80's temps. Ambient room temps about 70.
Not complaining it's just I was under the impression these lights run pretty cool.
The light itself is beautiful and feels good to be working underneath. Working under an hps to me has a sorta chaotic feel to it. With these I feel a more balanced, harmonious, gentle and stimulating kinda vibe.
scrappy, what kind of setup are you referring to... that are brighter and hotter than u expected?
just curious...
Beta Test Team
Member
Great to hear you got them up and running. Congrats.
We're waiting till January to do the build-out and installation. Had to push the plans back a bit. But we've used a couple GB in the past. We calculate our AC needs for GB similar to how one would calculate for air-cooled HID.
The Philips CMH lamps and the GB reflector does put out a good amount of heat, there is a spike around 850 nm which is basically just heat from the lamp. Though the spike is low compared to HPS (which has pretty considerable output in NIR). Comparing CMH to HPS and MH the difference in far-red and NIR is pretty stark.
GB were originally deigned to be installed on top of the growth chamber, so much of the heat would not enter the growth chamber (radiant from the reflector). In that case the cooling needs are considerably lower.
A couple of thoughts for you:
1. You will need to a good flow of air to keep the ambient temp at canopy at the ideal range of 75'F to 80'F, if you're not using AC. Sorry if anything I wrote before suggested otherwise. While they run cooler than other HID (due to the CMH spectrum and efficiency) they aren't nearly as cool as some LEDs, for example.
2. This is unlikely to be a good solution, but could you cut out the ceiling and install the GB so the aperture is just below the tent's roof (maybe hang GB from the room's ceiling)? With a little space so the fabric doesn't touch the reflectors would be a good idea i think. (Not sure if you need to use the tent to induce flowering or you can keep the room it's within dark.)
We're waiting till January to do the build-out and installation. Had to push the plans back a bit. But we've used a couple GB in the past. We calculate our AC needs for GB similar to how one would calculate for air-cooled HID.
The Philips CMH lamps and the GB reflector does put out a good amount of heat, there is a spike around 850 nm which is basically just heat from the lamp. Though the spike is low compared to HPS (which has pretty considerable output in NIR). Comparing CMH to HPS and MH the difference in far-red and NIR is pretty stark.
GB were originally deigned to be installed on top of the growth chamber, so much of the heat would not enter the growth chamber (radiant from the reflector). In that case the cooling needs are considerably lower.
A couple of thoughts for you:
1. You will need to a good flow of air to keep the ambient temp at canopy at the ideal range of 75'F to 80'F, if you're not using AC. Sorry if anything I wrote before suggested otherwise. While they run cooler than other HID (due to the CMH spectrum and efficiency) they aren't nearly as cool as some LEDs, for example.
2. This is unlikely to be a good solution, but could you cut out the ceiling and install the GB so the aperture is just below the tent's roof (maybe hang GB from the room's ceiling)? With a little space so the fabric doesn't touch the reflectors would be a good idea i think. (Not sure if you need to use the tent to induce flowering or you can keep the room it's within dark.)
Hey thanks man no it was nothing you said personally, it's more the basic idea I got from reading the whole thread is that these run much cooler than hps, I'm pretty sure I read that a few times. They do seem to run a bit cooler, but not like I was thinking I mean I'm definitely gonna have to use extraction fans to deal with it, but probably not as many cfm's needed as with an hps. It's not a big deal and it's certainly managable so I'm not stressing over it.
Thanks for suggestions. I'm just gonna leave it as is for now. I just have a single light in the veg tent for now until they're ready for flower and then I'll get all 3 situated with a new setup. I'll definitely consider your recommendations when designing it.
Thanks for suggestions. I'm just gonna leave it as is for now. I just have a single light in the veg tent for now until they're ready for flower and then I'll get all 3 situated with a new setup. I'll definitely consider your recommendations when designing it.
Been lurking in this thread, trying to decide if I should put some coin on 315 system, or go with something much less expensive that's tried and true.
This graph might help some folks deciding:
https://www.cycloptics.com/sites/default/files/USU_spectral_characteristics.pdf
Also, anybody know whats up with Cycloptics gear? I want to know what kind of electronic ballast they're selling with their 120v unit. Check it out...
https://www.cycloptics.com/greenbeams-pnp-kit
This graph might help some folks deciding:
https://www.cycloptics.com/sites/default/files/USU_spectral_characteristics.pdf
Also, anybody know whats up with Cycloptics gear? I want to know what kind of electronic ballast they're selling with their 120v unit. Check it out...
https://www.cycloptics.com/greenbeams-pnp-kit
Thanks for giving me something to think about.
I could prolly get the wiring done (specially if "someone" were to do a thread...you know..maybe ha-ha).The hard part is finding the used ballast.I doubt these are available here where I live,so I'd have to have a friend or someone do the legwork,and I hate to impose upon anyone.I could do as jhhnn suggested tho, and pop for a 400cmh bulb.Miraculous Meds
Well-known member
Can u use cmh in a vertical set up? Is anyone doing it that can point me to a thread to look at?
thanks.
thanks.
yes, 315w chm can be hung vertically; 860w CMH must be hung vert.
Miraculous Meds
Well-known member
ok thanks I need to search for some threads showing these. Im starting to get some serious interest in putting them to the test.
i ran the 860's vert bare bulb, & seafour is right now running an 860 vert in a hood, the new sunsystem 315w setups run vert in hood (smaller footprint than horizontal) however i've not seen anyone run the 315's vert outside of a hood at all
Beta Test Team
Member
That is the Welthink 120v plug-and-play low frequency square wave ballast Cycloptics is using for now...
It's UL listed. It's a good solution for now. But as I mentioned a few pages back, the Welthink will produce about 4% less radiant energy vs. Philips ballast. However, that 4% isn't really a huge loss, though, for example at 500 PPF that's only a reduction to about 480 PPF.
Per Cyctoptics:
"The key product feature of the Greenbeams 315W luminaire is the geometry of its patented reflector. Yes, there are other reflectors that can accommodate the 315W lamp, but there is only one that optimizes, wall-to-wall, the uniformity of the PAR light produced by the Philips 942 (4200K) or Agro (3100K) 315W lamp."
(And I would add that Cycloptics paints their CMH lamps, literally, to optimize the lamp output in terms of irradiance uniformity at canopy...)
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Beta Test Team
Member
Hi MM, I want to try and let water flow under the bridge.
When using vert, make sure to use the open fixture rated lamp to be most safe. (You may have been well aware of that, but if not I wanted to point it out.)
