Ceramic Metal Halide (CMH)

[rives]

I would be willing to bet that any savings from the VERY minimal power advantage of the electronic ballasts is negated by a much higher fatality rate.

 

[Drek]

I don't understand the lust for electronic ballasts.

In a residential application, neither do I. I think it has more to do with the fact that it's 'latest tech' that makes folks think...wow cool. The main benefits of using one of these ballast's has nothing to do with gardening. Dimming? Efficiency? Automation?


However, if you're aware of that before hand, then all the power to you. No pun intended.

 

[indianajones]

It would take a long time for the increased efficiency of a high priced low freq electronic ballast to catch up to the upfront savings of using an inexpensive magnetic ballast unless your electric rates are very, very high. If they are, & you want CMH, then the answer is to bite the bullet, put your money up front into a 315 system, preferably with genuine Philips components. Or just pay the slightly higher operating costs for mag ballasts & retrowhites. There's really no practical in-between.

the return of investment is going to be controlled by the price of electricity and how warm your outside ambient temp/humidity conditions are. it isn't going to be the same from person to person unless you pay the same $ per kWhr and have the same temps and humidity.

if there is a difference in yield, that's where one lamp will "outshine" the other. sorry for the bad pun lol

 

[Drek]

Who says a difference in yield, is necessarily due to light?

I've seen some pretty kick ass buds off of T5's!

 

[Slim Pickens]

I was hoping maybe someone could give me some advice.I asked Rives some time back about the 315,and the information sounded good..(btw:Thanks again Rives)..that was until I found out how expensive they are.Like one of the other posters here,I'm retired and living on a fixed income,and $500 +- doesn't offer itself too often.I was however,interested in the 330w mh that Jhhhn was suggesting.Would there be significant advantages to going that route vs my 400 HPS? If I might ask,what would I likely gain if I were to switch from 400hps to 330w Mh?Increased yields?Any advantage heat wise?Obviously,my old 400 won't penetrate too deep,would the 330w be better in that regard?Would simply going with a 400w cmh bulb produce any benefit?

Thanks.

 

[Jhhnn]

I was hoping maybe someone could give me some advice.I asked Rives some time back about the 315,and the information sounded good..(btw:Thanks again Rives)..that was until I found out how expensive they are.Like one of the other posters here,I'm retired and living on a fixed income,and $500 +- doesn't offer itself too often.I was however,interested in the 330w mh that Jhhhn was suggesting.Would there be significant advantages to going that route vs my 400 HPS? If I might ask,what would I likely gain if I were to switch from 400hps to 330w Mh?Increased yields?Any advantage heat wise?Obviously,my old 400 won't penetrate too deep,would the 330w be better in that regard?Would simply going with a 400w cmh bulb produce any benefit?

Thanks.

If you really want to try CMH & you have a magnetic 400w HPS ballast, I'd suggest that you try to chase down one of the discontinued 400w cmh conversion lamps mentioned here-

http://www.advancedtechlighting.com/cdmed18.htm

CDM400S51/HOR/4K/ALTO- horizontal

CDM400S51/v/4K/ALTO- vertical

Screw it in, fire it up, see what happens.

If you have a 400w MH ballast, then the 330w would be the one to try. I've used one with seedlings, teens & as supplementary lighting for houseplants. It worked well for all of that.

 

[Luther Burbank]

I'd kill to find some old retrowhites just for the ease. I miss those bulbs.

 

[Jhhnn]

I would be willing to bet that any savings from the VERY minimal power advantage of the electronic ballasts is negated by a much higher fatality rate.

Agreed. I wouldn't touch a 315 system that didn't have a genuine Philips electronic ballast for that very reason.

 

[Mikell]

I'd kill to find some old retrowhites just for the ease. I miss those bulbs.

greners.com, sdhydroponics.com and a few others advertise them, but in the case of the first two at least, neither responded to inquiry.

 

[Beta Test Team]

Note the Welthink ballast will produce about 4% less umol/s than a Philips ballast for a 315W lamp (like the Philips CMH lamps under discussion here).

 

[Beta Test Team]

It would take a long time for the increased efficiency of a high priced low freq electronic ballast to catch up to the upfront savings of using an inexpensive magnetic ballast unless your electric rates are very, very high. If they are, & you want CMH, then the answer is to bite the bullet, put your money up front into a 315 system, preferably with genuine Philips components. Or just pay the slightly higher operating costs for mag ballasts & retrowhites. There's really no practical in-between.

We haven't done the math for a reto white lamp and magnetic ballast, but I do know the following is true. So I suspect it's also true for retro white setup with magnetic ballast, albeit maybe not to the same degree.



When accounting for the following factors (which isn't a complete list) there is a considerable difference in cost to produce each gram using 315W lamps (say, Philips) with good ballasts (again, say Philips) and good reflectors (say, Greenbeams) vs. traditional luminaire sources like a HPS or MH with air-cooled reflectors and digital ballasts:

- AC draw (re; BTU from the lamps), fans (no in-line needed), relamping, system efficiency (including ballast wattage draw), kWh pricing (it would be the same for both systems), and other wattage using appliances with regard to luminaires (e.g. winch system with metal frame to which normal luminaries like HPS and MH are affixed).

When accounting for those factors, the increased initial price for the better luminaire pays for itself in a matter of only a few harvests (due to increased yield and reduced cost to produce each gram). Then, after that point the luminaires of higher quality allow for greater net and gross profits, while providing better yields and quality (due to better spectrum and irradiance uniformity) - so, greater ROI.

We have done these calculations for a very large legal recreational (adult-use) operation, for 29,000 sq. ft. canopy (not floor space). And what I wrote above holds true. While the initial cost may be well over $100,000 extra, it comes out in the wash pretty quickly (within 12 months, max 15 months).

 

[Beta Test Team]

I was hoping maybe someone could give me some advice.I asked Rives some time back about the 315,and the information sounded good..(btw:Thanks again Rives)..that was until I found out how expensive they are.Like one of the other posters here,I'm retired and living on a fixed income,and $500 +- doesn't offer itself too often.I was however,interested in the 330w mh that Jhhhn was suggesting.Would there be significant advantages to going that route vs my 400 HPS? If I might ask,what would I likely gain if I were to switch from 400hps to 330w Mh?Increased yields?Any advantage heat wise?Obviously,my old 400 won't penetrate too deep,would the 330w be better in that regard?Would simply going with a 400w cmh bulb produce any benefit?

Thanks.

If you're referring to Greenbeams (about the +/-$500 per unit), and you're using a single lamp, Greenbeams likely isn't the best choice for you because you need a couple of them so they'll 'work' as intended (due to how the reflectors distribute photons). You can use a single Greenbeams luminaire and use ORCA film, but you wouldn't get the full benefit of Greenbeams. Just thought I'd throw that out there for discussion.

What Jhhnn wrote to you is good advise.

 

[TheCatsMeow]

so does no one know for sure if Welthink ballast are low freq, or not?

 

[Drek]

Well, CDM Elite lamps operate around 110hz (LFSW), with an input at the ballast of 60hz. If Welthink claims their ballast outputs what an Elite lamp needs, it'll probably work...but for how long and how well. That's another story.

I'd stick with the Philips product and pay the $75 more or whatever the difference is.

 

[Jhhnn]

so does no one know for sure if Welthink ballast are low freq, or not?

There is no indication that any of their ballasts other than the one specifically for the 315 are low freq units. The price difference alone indicates that they are not.

 

[smile]

According to the Welthink website the ballast is low frequency. I would go with Philips anyway because that is the ballast they made to go with their CMH lamp.

Welthink is a crap shoot.. They could be fudging their specs, and reliability is a question.

 

[Slim Pickens]

If you really want to try CMH & you have a magnetic 400w HPS ballast, I'd suggest that you try to chase down one of the discontinued 400w cmh conversion lamps mentioned here-

http://www.advancedtechlighting.com/cdmed18.htm

CDM400S51/HOR/4K/ALTO- horizontal

CDM400S51/v/4K/ALTO- vertical

Screw it in, fire it up, see what happens.

If you have a 400w MH ballast, then the 330w would be the one to try. I've used one with seedlings, teens & as supplementary lighting for houseplants. It worked well for all of that.

Thanks Jhhnn.

Remind me to avoid shipping via UPS tho (although I normally support them).A lot of those guys doing the loading are training for baseball..and they all want to be the pitcher. Lol

 

[LargePrime]

that was until I found out how expensive they are.Like one of the other posters here,I'm retired and living on a fixed income,and $500 +- doesn't offer itself too often.

A 315 system can be had for much less, IF one is handy enough with electrical wiring.
A ballast can be found for 175, bulb for 75 and a wing reflector for 25.
So wire them up and get 315-ing.

Also take pics and make Beta Test Team weep and gnash teeth.

And if your not sure about the wiring, I volunteer Rives for making a thread on how to wire them up.

 

[beta]

According to the Welthink website the ballast is low frequency. I would go with Philips anyway because that is the ballast they made to go with their CMH lamp.

Welthink is a crap shoot.. They could be fudging their specs, and reliability is a question.

Any real-world experience with Welthinks out there? I'd love to get a Phillips, but the Welthinks seem to be the only ones available that are pre-wired for household 110/120V. That being said, I'm not interested in picking up a fire-starter, either...

 

[Beta Test Team]

Also take pics and make Beta Test Team weep and gnash teeth.

Huh? Okay, weird attack on us...

Just hanging 315W lamps above the canopy is about as good (granted, better spectrum) as hanging any HID 'grow' lamp if you're not calculating (or testing) irradiance and its uniformity (to optimize lamp placement and distance). Spectrum is only part of the equation.