Ceramic Metal Halide (CMH)

[TheFallenLion]

Glad to see this thread still going, proud to say my first grow experience was with CMH thanks to this thread, Simba, and other early converts. SnS Stealth and Whiskey Tango.

I've come to discuss something new, sorry if its been covered, but has anyone used Dutch Masters Liquid Light, in combination with a CMH of any size all the way through the grow? Ideally they'd have used Penetrator, ADD27, and Liquid Light, but any info would be appreciated.

If it works out right I was thinking of chain lightning it with Sonic Bloom from Dan Carlson, since Carlson's CD is purported to increase stomata dilation by 400%, I figured the Liquid Light should dilation them more, boost sugar production rates 95% as they claim, and I've heard good things... coupled with the superior spectra of CMH for the trifecta.

Comments Ladies & Gentlemen?

 

[TheFallenLion]

Chef its better to either use 800W of CMH or 1200W of CMH than to use any single 1000W, and no CMH will not go up to that level not in the foreseeable future. There are numerous benefits to it that HPS and MH lack, CMH is actually both of those combined into one package, therefore they destroy their parents, CMH is the hybrid of the family.

1) The Heat travels up, not down at your plants canopy.
2) Lumen depreciation is a much more gradual drawn out process than HPS/MH ie 2 bulbs a year vs 4 for near optimal
3) Spectra, it's better than both combined, no question, profuse resin production, beyond HPS, quality and densest are high in my experience, we're talking wet hardness of a factor beyond most peoples dry. Every one I know that runs HPS was impressed with my buds.

 

[habeeb]

I cannot get my 250W CMH bulb to ignite. Waited 5 minutes this time. I guess I'm ordering an HPS...

did you wire it up or is it from a ballast you had?

also, check the bulb, I had a 150 that was broken in shipping, called them, explained the problem, and they sent me out a new one and fired right up

 

[habeeb]

quick question...

In order to experience bad effects from the UV rays the CMH bulbs put out, do you have to be directly under it? Is there any danger in "working in the garden" while the light is on? If you wear sunglasses and don't look directly at it, is there any risk of "eye inflammation," as it reads on the label? Just trying to get an idea of how much exposure is bad, I like to be around my plants.

not much UVb, under a hood it's little, I have a uvb meter and tested it. going out in the sun is way worse for you..

 

[onegreenday]

My cuttings rooted well (about 7 dayz)
under a 400 CMH ( 40" away & to the side)
good rooting for me I think.

 

[Leviathan]

if i buy a 150hps or 250hps htg el cheapo grow light will theese work with a cmh bulb of similar wattage, there magnetic ballast not digital.

 

[hoosierdaddy]

The 150 needs a pulse start metal halide ballast. The 250 will run in the htg magnetic HPS ballast.

 

[TrickHomie]

@ThinkGREEN, Thanks for all the info.
It's good to know there are people like you helping out newbs.

Since you mentioned the POWERBALL series of OSRAM. I took a look at them.
They seem to be the same as CDM bulbs, with the benefit of having 100W models (CDM's have only 70 and 150W).
WDL for 3000K color and NDL for 4200K. Which models have you tested?
As far as I see from the catlogues POWERBALL HCI-T/P and POWERBALL HCI-E/P
are the only models designed for open luminaries. Do you use those or any other models?
And what exactly does "design for open luminaries" mean? Judging from the pictures, it seems the only difference is that those lamps have an extra bulb added on the exterior which should prevent shattered glass in case of an rupture .
Is that the only difference between bulbs designed for open and closed luminaries?
If that is the only difference, then I would enclose my luminaire with some acryllic/plexiglass and wouldn't have to pay more money for "open luminaire" bulbs.

 

[Huggie bear]

The 150 needs a pulse start metal halide ballast. The 250 will run in the htg magnetic HPS ballast.

Is this also true of all the 150 and lower models?
I wanted to pick up another but honestly I hated wiring this up and would rather pick up a ready to go ballast.

 

[grouchy]

I just recently hooked up my 100w cmh. I replaced a 70w hps with it and the brightness and color are amazing. This thread is the reason I picked up a cmh in the first place. Here is a pic of the inside of my cab. The plants were grown under a 70w hps until two days ago.

 

[Huggie bear]

I just recently hooked up my 100w cmh. I replaced a 70w hps with it and the brightness and color are amazing. This thread is the reason I picked up a cmh in the first place. Here is a pic of the inside of my cab. The plants were grown under a 70w hps until two days ago.

Right there with you Grouchy I ordered my 100 watt CMH after reading though pages and pages of info and so far I am noticing a big difference in the development of my plants.
Cant not wait to flip to bloom tomorrow.

 

[ThinkGREEN]

@ThinkGREEN, Thanks for all the info.
It's good to know there are people like you helping out newbs.

Since you mentioned the POWERBALL series of OSRAM. I took a look at them.
They seem to be the same as CDM bulbs, with the benefit of having 100W models (CDM's have only 70 and 150W).
WDL for 3000K color and NDL for 4200K. Which models have you tested?
As far as I see from the catlogues POWERBALL HCI-T/P and POWERBALL HCI-E/P

no problem,... we're here to learn and help

I have only tried the 70W & 150W HCI-T .. or lets say it like this,.. I trying them at the moment.
usually I use the 150W CDM-TD
so far I haven't noticed a big difference between the HCI & CDM..

are the only models designed for open luminaries. Do you use those or any other models?
And what exactly does "design for open luminaries" mean? Judging from the pictures, it seems the only difference is that those lamps have an extra bulb added on the exterior which should prevent shattered glass in case of an rupture .
Is that the only difference between bulbs designed for open and closed luminaries?
If that is the only difference, then I would enclose my luminaire with some acryllic/plexiglass and wouldn't have to pay more money for "open luminaire" bulbs.

actually you just answered your own questions...
btw. I only use the CDM/HCI enclosed luminaries...
I just detached the borosilicate glass from a normal HQI aquarium lamp... and made it fit on my DIY "wing".
I personally wouldn't advise using acrylic/plexi, glass It'll probably deform..
Cardanlight has a very good enclosed system (its in german,.. but just to give you an idea what to look for)

http://www.plentino.de/-Cardanlight...HQI-TS-150W-weiss/a-1007286-27-35-82-0-0.html

 

[simba]

Protected Open Luminary = Quartz sleeve or in HPS retro case a Coil around arc tube.
Non Protected Enclosed Luminary = arc tube and outer envelope of bulb.
Pretty self explanatory..Enclosed some will have bit shorter life as sleeve keeps arc tube hotter... depending on the application and cost of fixture i still recomend Open Rated Lamps as if a cmh goes so does the fixture. Yups chances are its a goner.

what people forget CMH is not like MH if it goes.nothing like it..
lets go over HID lamps rupturing.
HPS haven't seen many blow so since we have seen this before if you take a 400 lamp and pop it with a 1kw ballast generally the arc tube will just have popped in half with few small bits shattered off arc tube and it will all stay in the bulb may bulge outer glass but nothing major as its not under high pressure like mh or cmh (dont try at home)

MH Probe and Pulse start,
when these pop generally its only the bubble part of the arc tube (thin qautz) and that has no mass when it flies off and even though it can burn something it hits its cool pretty fast (ever watch a mh right after power off Red glow is gone faster than HPS even)
also when they pop the arc tube shatters in many many pieces and break more when hitting outer bulb envelope.

CMH
IKES i dont like being around enclosed rated in open application EVER>.if they go its over.
when cmh pops generally its a seal that blows and under the high presure of MH and the solid arc tube it goes flying and will go right threw the bulb envelope in large peices and not break into smaller ones if the arc tube welds fail.
the cmh arc tube is ceramic (thus holds heat ridiculously well) can start a fire minutes after it has turned off. (the ceramic arc tube is what captures the heat from the MH salts and lets it rise up, cool ay but it has the drawback of saftey needs to be 1st IE protected bulbs are huge issue for us.IE My rants when non protected are discussed..



If you notice the pic below from adv tech cmh fact.
this arc tube apears to have welded itself off on the top blew the seal and lead on the bottom and tired to launch threw the lamp envelpe but being a Philips Open rated lamp the outer jacket stopped it (thick as Qaurtz I think its qtz)
if ya talk to them they have arc tubes they "play with" and are 7+ grams solid a mh arc tube is that if you take out the ends that WONT ever fall out the lamp let alone launch with solidness of Ceramic
IE if you drop a MH arc tube on Ground it shatters in million pieces allover the place (they would be cold within Mili seconds)
cmh would launch a bit and be in one or 2 large pieces holding that heat long enough to light live plants on fire Dry the area and then ignite)
i will say sometimes when cmh fails the arc tube does break into 4-10 peices with that said they are large and still hold heat like you wouldn't believe CMH arc tube is actually thick like 4 mil Ill measure.. in this case a enclosed fixture is probably trashed if enclosed non protected bulb is used..as it would be riddled with dimples from the heavy shrapnel morose than if it just flew and left chemical residue.from flying with a jet port on back side.

 

[onegreenday]

trichomes mesmerize me

trichomes mesmerize me

under CMH the trichomes mesmerize me.
I find myself just starring at them transfixed.

They sparkle like a diamond white.........

The flowers are blue/purple now (indoors)
where before not much color;
so it changed the flowers for sure.

EDIT: Thanks Simba: safety first...

 

[TrickHomie]

ThinkGREEN, simba,
thanks for the info. Yes safety is very important... I would hate if fire messes up a few months of growing.

As I am a bit of a cheap-ass (but very inventive) I was thinking, maybe I can DIY cool tubes out of Vodka bottles (that is very tough/thick glass, nothing special, but at least 4mm thick, and cylindrical shape gives it natural toughness), being connected in both ends with aluminum air duct that should be enough blast-proof, right?
I will look around for some inexpensive enclosed luminaries to modify, but those would be hard to find around here. And since I am starting a brand new cab project, I don't have all the funds reserved for lighting...
I gotta stay within 300-400 EUR for the entire project... If I can not match the budget, then I guess I'll stick to the good old HPS's.

P.S. Project is planned as a 3 tier cab (~2.30 m high) first tier should be flowering chamber, about 1.2 m high (about 0.2-0.3m reserved for luminarie), second tier veg chamber about 0.6 m high (about 0.1 m reserved for T5 tubes+reflector).
and about 50cm high mother chamber and service compartment, both located on the third tier.
Base dimmensions are 0.9 x 0.8m but I will be utilizing 0.9 x 0.6 at the start (don't have enough cash to light up the entire area from start, but I'll have room for future expansion)

 

[Pinball Wizard]

fly the friendly skies...CMH

 

[overmyhead]

Wow, there is so much to this thread! Thanks to everyone for their input etc. I ordered one of these for an old hps setup I found and love the way it looks, not so sure about the heat - it seems pretty hot to me (400w in an enclosed hood) and the plant that is directly under it seems to like it too. It isnt on for the full twelve, allso in the tent there is some hps and led but this plant is almost right under this 400 with another plant and the edges of a couple more. Here she is 2 weeks in (a week ago)

 

[overmyhead]

Wow, there is so much to this thread! Thanks to everyone for their input etc. I ordered one of these for an old hps setup I found and love the way it looks, not so sure about the heat - it seems pretty hot to me (400w in an enclosed hood) and the plant that is directly under it seems to like it too. It isnt on for the full twelve, allso in the tent there is some hps and led but this plant is almost right under this 400 with another plant and the edges of a couple more. Here she is 2 weeks in (a week ago.)

A question to those of you who are experienced in this stuff, I was all excited comparing the spectral analysis of this bulb vs the typical hps example given (although charts for specific hps like hortilux look a lot better than the one used in the thread) but never thought to compare them to traditional MH. So, that having been said, if you had your choice and could have two seperate ballasts if you wanted would you veg under the cmh instead of a mh? Thanks.

EDIT: that plant was flailing badly under t-5's and I had given up on it, stuck it under the cmh with about 30" between them, the plant stretched up to the light but in a very pleasing, strong (the branches are holding their weight fine,) bud filled way. Hopefully the pick will show but it looks like they'll grow together into some fine colas. So, maybe having these things < 12 " over short plants isn't the only way to go, the plant is now about 40" tall from the dirt and still 16" from the light (the pot was elevated about 7" when I first put it in.) If I had to guess it was a wimpy wispy 18" when I put her in, now she needs no support but I set some up because I have a feeling those buds are going to start getting heavy real soon. Strain is Chocolope - maybe it just really likes the cmh but I don't think I had that kind of growth with it's mom under my 600w hps.

 

[squirrelfooker]

Anyone have a recommendation on a cheap hps ballast to run these? I'm thinking maybe htgsupply, but need to call as they don't seem to list their 400 watt magnetic ballast seperately. Anyone have a link for a how to and what to use as an enclosure for wiring up the advanced tech ballast kit? More work but would make it cheap.

 

[perpetualnewb]

i just put together the kit from advancetech, super simple instructions, and much cheaper. so, if you can read and have basic skills, i say just get the ballast kit. only thing is you will have to get a mogul socket for it. my home depot and lowes stopped selling them, had to pick it up from the hydro store.