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I like sea crop. 5 gallons is a life time supply
C
Cep
Thanks for your post Michael. It is much appreciated.
They discovered the the sum of the + charges from Ca++, Mg++, K+, and Na+ were approximately equal in the sap all of the alfalfa regardless of which soil it was grown in. If the soil was high in Mg, the plants took up more Mg, if high in K, they took up more K, and likewise for Ca and Na.
This is what the tissue analysis seems to be showing.
Another thing they discovered was the the higher the K level of the soil and the higher the amount of K taken up, the lower the quality of the forage for animal feed.
Here's the money quote from the paper linked above:
"The evidence supports the belief that each of these cations has at
least two functions in the plant, one specific and the other or others of the type that can be performed interchangeably by all three cations [Ca, Mg, K]. Once the supply of each cation is adequate to meet the specific need for it, there can be a wide range in ratios in the remaining quantities that are absorbed by the plant to meet its total cation needs.
"Whether the problem of growing alfalfa is considered from the
point of view of economy in its production or that of its mineral
value to the animal to which it is fed, it would appear that the soil
on which it is to be grown should be fortified with an abundance of
Ca and Mg in preparation for seeding, but that the K applications
should be governed by the specific annual needs of the plant, a
suitable application being made at seeding time and additional
quantities being supplied each year the crop is allowed to continue
on the same land.
I remember in Gary Zimmer's book the Biological Farmer he talked about his own farms and how he brought the soil to Albrecht ratios, keeping K in the 3-5% range and only adding a small amount (something like 150lb/acre) more when he was in an alfalfa rotation because of the heavy use by that crop. I don't think he needed any when growing anything else.
"Because of alfalfa's tendency to accumulate K in excess of its
critical need for it, difficulty is experienced in maintaining an adequate supply of this element in the soil. The annual application of K must be sufficient to maintain the K content of the plant at not
less than 1% [of dry matter - ed], but it should not be so large as to effect a substitution of K for Ca and Mg in the functions that are common to all three cations in the plant." [end quote]
Bear says here and elsewhere that high K is great of the object is to grow large amounts of fiber or carbohydrate (for instance cotton or sugar cane) but for alfalfa and animal feed in general, high K with low Ca and Mg is not healthy. The question is, which do we want when growing cannabis?
Additionally, in Cep's case with high sap Brix along with high sap pH,
july 16
Row 1: 15 brix (cloudy line), 7.2pH
Row 2: 13.5 brix (sharp line), 7.2pH
Row 3: 16 brix (sharp line), 7.3pH
it would appear that the cation/anion balance is off. The plants seem to be getting a super-abundance of cations but be short on anions (NO3-, SO4--, Cl-). His latest soil report shows good levels of NO3 (178-200ppm), but low levels of SO4 (58-70ppm). Cl is not measured, but judging from the low reading for Na, Cl is probably low as well.
Certainly off. I should have been more careful with the compost.
[Despite A&L labs characterizing both NO3 and SO4 as VH (very high), they are not. What A&L doesn't get is that the minerals need to be proportionate to the overall fertility and CEC of the soil. What is VH in a low CEC soil may be VL in a high CEC soil]
With an average CEC of 17, ideal K at say 5% of CEC would be 330ppm. The Potassium:Sulfur ratio should be 2:1 or even 1:1 when K is this high, so SO4-S should be a minimum of 165ppm and up to 330ppm.
I would consider amending with sulfates and/or chlorides, in the form of Calcium or Magnesium sulfate via fertigation or foliar, or their chlorides via foliar.
I won't be using the chlorides. I'd had several conversations with the the guy that runs the soil lab I use and we touched on Chlorine a month ago. He was saying that you want it present, of course, but just barely. I also don't want it on the leaf surface potentially harming microbes. A few others are not using products like Calcium25 anymore for that reason. What I did do after the last soil test is incorporate gypsum in on the soil surface. I'll probably be adding a little extra epsom salt into my foliar mix now that I've seen the tissue analysis.
Both Zinc (3-5.5ppm) and Copper (0.7-0.8ppm) are very low in this soil. Minimum Zinc for healthy plants and uptake of phosphates is 10ppm, minimum Copper for strong immune systems and stem flexibility is 5ppm. Adding a little Zn or Cu sulfate through the drip line would likely help plant health while raising needed S.
Solid advice. Tissue results for Cu came back around 5ppm. I'll be adding their sulfates.
Pareto. The big stuff is more important to me. I'll start a Anunnaki gold thread in the toker's den. Don't get me wrong, I love talking about those things but it's looking like half my thread is going to be occupied by theoretical banter.
Albrecht ratios are the full weight gold. Last year I had K lower, C higher. Foliars were just a here and there thing but my plants looked a little more glossy.
I'll get the tissue analysis up in the next post.
C
Cep
Tissue Analysis
Tissue Analysis
Here is last years tissue analysis when the plants were in marginal health and I was trying to figure out exactly what was going on:
What happened was my plants started mining the subsoil. The test for the top 12" showed great Albrecht ratios but I just didn't have enough soil volume.
Here is the most recent soil test and the corresponding tissue analysis. Keep in mind that I've added more gypsum and lime to all the beds.
You can see that bed 3 has significantly more K and that seems to have translated to the tissue. This is also the bed that shows the higher brix readings with a sharper line. I wish you were wrong Milky!
I do have more Calcium in the tissue than the previous year, but last years analysis was probably starting to show deficiencies because I know the brix and sap pH were dropping during testing.
There are no established reference values for Cannabis, but I've always looked through those for other plants to try and get a feel for where I'm at. Here is a good compilation:
http://www.clemson.edu/sera6/scsb394notoc.pdf
If anyone has other sources feel free to post them. I was particularly looking at the values for tomatoes.
Tissue Analysis
Here is last years tissue analysis when the plants were in marginal health and I was trying to figure out exactly what was going on:
What happened was my plants started mining the subsoil. The test for the top 12" showed great Albrecht ratios but I just didn't have enough soil volume.
Here is the most recent soil test and the corresponding tissue analysis. Keep in mind that I've added more gypsum and lime to all the beds.
You can see that bed 3 has significantly more K and that seems to have translated to the tissue. This is also the bed that shows the higher brix readings with a sharper line. I wish you were wrong Milky!
I do have more Calcium in the tissue than the previous year, but last years analysis was probably starting to show deficiencies because I know the brix and sap pH were dropping during testing.
There are no established reference values for Cannabis, but I've always looked through those for other plants to try and get a feel for where I'm at. Here is a good compilation:
http://www.clemson.edu/sera6/scsb394notoc.pdf
If anyone has other sources feel free to post them. I was particularly looking at the values for tomatoes.
Cep-
Re chlorides: Cl is an essential nutrient for plants and animals, and in the proper amount a good growth stimulant for plants. It should not be confused with using chlorine bleach as a disinfectant. Every sprinkle of table salt we eat contains more chlorine than it does sodium, about a 60:40 ratio. Where trouble arises as in harm to microbes and soil life is when potassium chloride fertilizer is used in large amounts; the Cl will dissociate from the K in the soil and release chlorine gas, which is a poison, and the K released during the dissociation in the soil also ages clays quickly. KCl fertilizer is the most widely used K fertilizer in the world, which goes a long ways toward explaining why agricultural soils are in such poor shape. Commonly used KCl is 0-0-60, which contains 50%K and 47%Cl. If 400 lbs of 0-0-60 are used per acre, almost 200 lbs of that is going on as Cl. I avoid using KCl fertilizers; potassium sulfate works much better and supplies S which is almost always low and needed in much greater quantities than Cl.
However Cl as an essential nutrient for plants should not be ignored. In a low-sodium soil, sea salt or another mineral salt like Redmond salt can be used to bring the Na saturation to 1.5-2% of CEC and will at the same time supply some Cl. I like to see Cl a little bit higher than Na in the soil, in ppm.
In a soil with a CEC of 10meq, 1.5% Na saturation would be 35 ppm and Cl should be 40-50ppm.
For a soil that is high in Na and low in Cl, other secondary minerals such as Mn or Zn can be amended using the chloride form.
~~~~~~~~
On the tissue test I would want to see S at around 1%; less than 0.2% is not sufficient for forming the S containing amino acids or the other functions S performs. And again, on your latest soil test with a CEC of ~17, S should be in the range of 165 to 330 ppm.
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Re A&L soil tests: Among other problems, such as using the AA 7.0 test rather than the Mehlich 3, the recommendations from A&L do not consider the texture, OM content, or CEC of the soil. A&L will say S is very high at 70 ppm whether the soil is pure sand or has a CEC of 35 with 30% organic matter. For a tissue test, a compost test, or a fertilizer test they are OK. If one wishes to balance the minerals using the Albrecht or Ideal Soil ratios, get a soil test from a lab that uses the Mehlich 3 and learn to calculate CEC yourself, as most labs get that wrong too.
Re chlorides: Cl is an essential nutrient for plants and animals, and in the proper amount a good growth stimulant for plants. It should not be confused with using chlorine bleach as a disinfectant. Every sprinkle of table salt we eat contains more chlorine than it does sodium, about a 60:40 ratio. Where trouble arises as in harm to microbes and soil life is when potassium chloride fertilizer is used in large amounts; the Cl will dissociate from the K in the soil and release chlorine gas, which is a poison, and the K released during the dissociation in the soil also ages clays quickly. KCl fertilizer is the most widely used K fertilizer in the world, which goes a long ways toward explaining why agricultural soils are in such poor shape. Commonly used KCl is 0-0-60, which contains 50%K and 47%Cl. If 400 lbs of 0-0-60 are used per acre, almost 200 lbs of that is going on as Cl. I avoid using KCl fertilizers; potassium sulfate works much better and supplies S which is almost always low and needed in much greater quantities than Cl.
However Cl as an essential nutrient for plants should not be ignored. In a low-sodium soil, sea salt or another mineral salt like Redmond salt can be used to bring the Na saturation to 1.5-2% of CEC and will at the same time supply some Cl. I like to see Cl a little bit higher than Na in the soil, in ppm.
In a soil with a CEC of 10meq, 1.5% Na saturation would be 35 ppm and Cl should be 40-50ppm.
For a soil that is high in Na and low in Cl, other secondary minerals such as Mn or Zn can be amended using the chloride form.
~~~~~~~~
On the tissue test I would want to see S at around 1%; less than 0.2% is not sufficient for forming the S containing amino acids or the other functions S performs. And again, on your latest soil test with a CEC of ~17, S should be in the range of 165 to 330 ppm.
~~~~
Re A&L soil tests: Among other problems, such as using the AA 7.0 test rather than the Mehlich 3, the recommendations from A&L do not consider the texture, OM content, or CEC of the soil. A&L will say S is very high at 70 ppm whether the soil is pure sand or has a CEC of 35 with 30% organic matter. For a tissue test, a compost test, or a fertilizer test they are OK. If one wishes to balance the minerals using the Albrecht or Ideal Soil ratios, get a soil test from a lab that uses the Mehlich 3 and learn to calculate CEC yourself, as most labs get that wrong too.
milkyjoe-
Assume by AS you mean ammonium sulfate? I have no problems with it. It is safe, effective, and does not harm soil life. The only reason is isn't allowed under USDA organic rules is becausee J I Rodale was a purist fanatic follower of Albert Howard, who believed that organic matter alone was all any soil needed. The story I heard is that in the early 1940s, Rodale was collaborating with Wm Albrecht and Louis Bromfield at Bromfield's Malabar Farm in Ohio, a worn-out soil that they were restoring by replenishing minerals. Albrecht and Bromfield wanted to use ammonium sulfate (NH4)2SO4; Rodale freaked out because it was a "chemical" and broke off relations with them. So, ever since, "organic" gardeners have been largely relegated to using animal byproducts as a nitrogen source, which is pretty sick when you think about it. Where does blood meal or feather meal come from? Confined animal feeding factories. WHere does fish meal come from? Factory ships trawling the oceans. Even the oil seed meals used as N sources are generally GMO, and even if not, the oils have been extracted using hexane, low grade gasoline, and the seed meal still contains hexane.
Ammonium sulfate on the other hand is made by extracting nitrogen from the air using natural gas as a feedstock for H and a heat source, and then reacted with H2SO4. It is no more "unnatural" than copper, zinc, manganese, or iron sulfates all of which are allowed under USDA NOP rules, and avoids the horrors of feedlots, slaughterhouses, CAFOs, and raping the oceans. What's not to like?
Re using a juicer to get a liquid to check Brix, I had never heard of that before Cep mentioned it. I think it is brilliant and I'm considering buying a hand-crank wheat grass juicer to give it a try. I would like to see a comparison of the Brix for the same plant squeezed out using a garlic press or vise grips vs the juicer, to see what if any difference it makes.
Michael...you may be my new best friend...let's check. Provided you wete growing 25-99 pots/mounds/holes etc. Is there any reason in the world you would not spread that N application weekly vs putting it in all at once up front. Hell it seems to me you could follow sap ph and dial how much weekly.
I tend to also like calcium nitrate in veg
I tend to also like calcium nitrate in veg
Great to have you in the mix Michael !
Many of the points you touch on are acknowledged and respected by those you're corresponding with currently.
Many of the points you touch on are acknowledged and respected by those you're corresponding with currently.
C
Cep
Milky favors the Mehlich for P and I remember discussing this with the head guy at A&L. What he explained is beyond my experience to accurately recount. Something about the math being used not accurately representing available P. That memory doesn't make sense because Bray and Olsen are supposed to not be very accurate either.
I'll check this when I'm back in town. I was scrambling to get a bunch of things done before I took off and wasn't able to fix a few plates onto a clamp.
milkyjoe-
Yes by all means apply the N as it is needed if you have that option. Most of the people I work with are farmers and gardeners who don't have the time or inclination to be fertilizing and spraying all through the growing season; what most want is to set the soil up right at the beginning and not have to worry about anything other than water. Cannabis growers generally do have the time and can afford to apply extras. Even for regular vegetable gardening, some crops (e.g. onions) do much better with an N boost halfway through the growing season.
Feather meal is a good long term slow release N source that will generally provide sufficient N for at least two months of growth.
Cep wrote "Milky favors the Mehlich for P and I remember discussing this with the head guy at A&L. What he explained is beyond my experience to accurately recount. Something about the math being used not accurately representing available P. That memory doesn't make sense because Bray and Olsen are supposed to not be very accurate either."
The ammonium acetate pH7.0 test (which I'm pretty sure A&L is using) is fine for measuring Ca, Mg, K, and Na in soils below pH7 and estimating CEC, as long as the correct math is used, which it usually isn't. AA7.0 is not useful for measuring S, P, or the metals, so the labs using the AA7.0 test use other tests for those elements, for instance the Olsen or Bray test for P or DTPA for metals. Other labs use the Morgan or Modified Morgan test which is useless for estimating CEC and only shows what is readily available at pH 4.8.
To compound the confusion, few of the labs or the consultants have any real clue what should be added or what the proper ratios should be, because they do not take varying CECs into account. A&L will recommend the same amount of Sulfur for a sandy soil with a CEC of 2 as for a heavy clay with a CEC of 35. Also worth noting, no mainstream school of agronomy in the world teaches their students the importance of CEC; quite the opposite, agronomists have been told since the 1960s that the ratio of Ca:Mg:K, the base cation saturation ratio or BCSR, is a useless artifact and that it makes no difference what the ratios are in the soil.
It's really very simple: For a soil below pH 7, get a Mehlich 3 test, use the Brookside formula for calculating CEC, and then balance the minerals to these ratios:
Ca = 65-85% of CEC saturation
Mg = 10-20% of CEC saturation depending on soil texture
K = 4%-5% of CEC
Na = 1%-3% of CEC
P = K (or P2O5 = 2x K2O)
S = 1/2 x P
B = 1/1000 x Ca
Fe = 1/2 x P
Mn = 1/3 to 1/2 x Fe
Zn = 1/10 x P (up to 50 ppm)
Cu = 1/2 x Zn
For a soil pH 7 or above, or one that has had lime added recently, get the Mehlich 3 and also an Ammonium Acetate pH 8.2 test (not AA7.0). Use the Ca, Mg, K, and Na results from the AA8.2 to calculate CEC and to see what the real-world base saturation is, and use the Mehlich 3 results to measure and balance all the rest of the minerals.
The lab techs and agronomists at A&L (and most other labs) do not know about or recognize the validity of the Albrecht or Ideal Soil BCSR ratios, nor do they recognize that different soils need different amounts of nutrient elements.
The ammonium acetate pH7.0 test (which I'm pretty sure A&L is using) is fine for measuring Ca, Mg, K, and Na in soils below pH7 and estimating CEC, as long as the correct math is used, which it usually isn't. AA7.0 is not useful for measuring S, P, or the metals, so the labs using the AA7.0 test use other tests for those elements, for instance the Olsen or Bray test for P or DTPA for metals. Other labs use the Morgan or Modified Morgan test which is useless for estimating CEC and only shows what is readily available at pH 4.8.
To compound the confusion, few of the labs or the consultants have any real clue what should be added or what the proper ratios should be, because they do not take varying CECs into account. A&L will recommend the same amount of Sulfur for a sandy soil with a CEC of 2 as for a heavy clay with a CEC of 35. Also worth noting, no mainstream school of agronomy in the world teaches their students the importance of CEC; quite the opposite, agronomists have been told since the 1960s that the ratio of Ca:Mg:K, the base cation saturation ratio or BCSR, is a useless artifact and that it makes no difference what the ratios are in the soil.
It's really very simple: For a soil below pH 7, get a Mehlich 3 test, use the Brookside formula for calculating CEC, and then balance the minerals to these ratios:
Ca = 65-85% of CEC saturation
Mg = 10-20% of CEC saturation depending on soil texture
K = 4%-5% of CEC
Na = 1%-3% of CEC
P = K (or P2O5 = 2x K2O)
S = 1/2 x P
B = 1/1000 x Ca
Fe = 1/2 x P
Mn = 1/3 to 1/2 x Fe
Zn = 1/10 x P (up to 50 ppm)
Cu = 1/2 x Zn
For a soil pH 7 or above, or one that has had lime added recently, get the Mehlich 3 and also an Ammonium Acetate pH 8.2 test (not AA7.0). Use the Ca, Mg, K, and Na results from the AA8.2 to calculate CEC and to see what the real-world base saturation is, and use the Mehlich 3 results to measure and balance all the rest of the minerals.
The lab techs and agronomists at A&L (and most other labs) do not know about or recognize the validity of the Albrecht or Ideal Soil BCSR ratios, nor do they recognize that different soils need different amounts of nutrient elements.
C
Cep
Thanks for the knowledge dump. I'm going to pick your book up. I've got a few more to read now when I'm sleeping in my plot this fall.
Most cannabis growers utilize peat moss as a base growing medium.
The CEC of which can vary from 50-250, with the norm falling into 100-200.
Calculated CEC will give a very inaccurate number compared to getting an effective CEC test which would require the use of a barium solution to get accurate results.
Cannabis growers are not tilling minerals into their fields just yet.
The wiki on BCSE is an interesting read and the conclusions are not in favor of the BCSE methods. Its a head scratcher that with over a million acres utilizing the BCSE methods there would be better documentation, comparisons and studies to get it more acceptable in the science community, what gives?
The CEC of which can vary from 50-250, with the norm falling into 100-200.
Calculated CEC will give a very inaccurate number compared to getting an effective CEC test which would require the use of a barium solution to get accurate results.
Cannabis growers are not tilling minerals into their fields just yet.
The wiki on BCSE is an interesting read and the conclusions are not in favor of the BCSE methods. Its a head scratcher that with over a million acres utilizing the BCSE methods there would be better documentation, comparisons and studies to get it more acceptable in the science community, what gives?
L
Luther Burbank
"The only reason is isn't allowed under USDA organic rules is becausee J I Rodale was a purist fanatic follower of Albert Howard, who believed that organic matter alone was all any soil needed."
Real fucking talk!
Real fucking talk!
this thread is great, thanks to Cep and the rest for dropping good info
have a great August!
have a great August!
C
Cep
Plants are showing many little flowers. It's looked like they've been in a transition stage for over a week though.
Been plucking old cover crop species here and there. I have buckwheat, oilseed radish and clover coming up everywhere.
I've made a mistake with my tillage this year that I believe is going to lead to the loss of at least one plant in the plot. I'll get some pictures up next time with my thoughts on what happened and how to fix it next year.
Been plucking old cover crop species here and there. I have buckwheat, oilseed radish and clover coming up everywhere.
I've made a mistake with my tillage this year that I believe is going to lead to the loss of at least one plant in the plot. I'll get some pictures up next time with my thoughts on what happened and how to fix it next year.
Hola Pangea-
Thanks for bringing that up. I was contacted by the fellow who wrote the wiki piece before he wrote it. I told him that the reference he was using was errant, but he went ahead with it anyway, for whatever reason.
Oil drilling engineers are taught that the Ca:Mg:K ratio matters in the drilling mud, because it affects the mud texture. It's counter-intuitive but works like this: Calcium gloms clay particles together, with its 2+ charge, making little island of calcium clay, which soil bacteria love, and plant roots love, because they can access Ca from there easily, exchanging H+ from the carbon dioxide they are breathing from their roots.
Anyway. Ca can glom more particles into individual pieces. Mg has the same ++ charge but is smaller so it is surrounded by more water molecules, can't hold clay together. Potassium and Sodium only have a single charge. The clay tends to disperse we end up with a soggy soil.
If the soil is sandy and needs water retention, then more Mg is good. If it is clay, more Ca is good.
C
CaliGabe
Only the second person I've ever read regarding oil drilling tech in regards to soil science and growing plants. A few years back was talking to Kempf and he started to bring this stuff up and talked about bore hole stabilization. I was like...what?
Garden is looking good Cep!
Because it disperses the soil particles.
