Can't tell if you have root rot or the brown slime algae, come on in ?!

[richyrich]

More, root rot this time.


"Pythium-induced root rot is a common crop disease. When the organism kills newly emerged or emerging seedlings it is known as damping off, and is a very common problem in fields and greenhouses.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pythium#cite_note-Jarvis-2 This disease complex usually involves other pathogens such as Phytophthora and Rhizoctonia. Pythium wilt is caused by zoospore infection of older plants leading to biotrophic infections that become necrotrophic in response to colonization/reinfection pressures or environmental stress,https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pythium#cite_note-Jarvis-2https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pythium#cite_note-OG2005-3https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pythium#cite_note-OG2009-4 leading to minor or severe wilting caused by impeded root functioning.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pythium#cite_note-Jarvis-2https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pythium#cite_note-Bagnall-5
Many Pythium species, along with their close relatives Phytophthora, are plant pathogens of economic importance in agriculture. Pythium spp. tend to be very generalistic and unspecific in their host range. They infect a large range of hosts,https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pythium#cite_note-OG2002-6 while Phytophthora spp. are generally more host-specific.

For this reason, Pythium spp. are more devastating in the root rot they cause in crops, because crop rotation alone will often not eradicate the pathogen (nor will fallowing the field, as Pythium spp. are also good saprotrophs, and will survive for a long time on decaying plant matter).

It has been noted that in field crops, damage by Pythium spp. is often limited to the area affected, as the motile zoospores require ample surface water to travel long distances. Additionally, the capillaries formed by soil particles act as a natural filter and effectively trap many zoospores. However, in hydroponic systems inside greenhouses, where extensive monocultures of plants are maintained in plant nutrient solution (containing nitrogen, potassium, phosphate, and micronutrients) that is continuously recirculated to the crop, Pythium spp. cause extensive and devastating root rot and is often difficult to prevent or control.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pythium#cite_note-OG2003-7 The root rot affects entire operations (tens of thousands of plants, in many instances) within two to four days due to the inherent nature of hydroponic systems where roots are nakedly exposed to the water medium, in which the zoospores can move freely."


What I want to point out is the following:


"Pythium wilt is caused by zoospore infection of older plants leading to biotrophic infections that become necrotrophic in response to colonization/reinfection pressures or environmental stress,https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pythium#cite_note-Jarvis-2https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pythium#cite_note-OG2005-3https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pythium#cite_note-OG2009-4 leading to minor or severe wilting caused by impeded root functioning."

This is telling us older plants carry the infection even if they are seemingly healthy. That's why all plants have to go from the grow room and start over.


"It has been noted that in field crops, damage by Pythium spp. is often limited to the area affected, as the motile zoospores require ample surface water to travel long distances."

This is telling us about spores and water.


"However, in hydroponic systems inside greenhouses, where extensive monocultures of plants are maintained in plant nutrient solution (containing nitrogen, potassium, phosphate, and micronutrients) that is continuously recirculated to the crop, Pythium spp. cause extensive and devastating root rot and is often difficult to prevent or control.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pythium#cite_note-OG2003-7 The root rot affects entire operations (tens of thousands of plants, in many instances) within two to four days due to the inherent nature of hydroponic systems where roots are nakedly exposed to the water medium, in which the zoospores can move freely."

And, this is telling us why it's so devastating in hydro. Recirculation is a problem as I have stated DTW is a must until the rot is eradicated or under good control. It's difficult to prevent and control. Just imagine when it's a suspected mutant strain. It makes for a nightmare like doneit and his peeps. Just a few days and kaboom from the f'n spores as said in the last line.

 

[doneit]

I used to put the dunks in ladies knee hi sheers and leave them in the rez...

Did not kill what we have, but does work for gnats and related.

 

[120Octane]

Doneit did you try BT , the skeet dunks will not kill pythium, it is wrong species of Bactillus. All the skeet dunks will do is kill gnats. The BTK will kill mites.

 

[120Octane]

Doneit yes I do teas myself, I was brewing alot of different recipes and I went to ORCA 3 mil per gallon 1 cup of Earth worm castings and I also put heavy 16 PRIME in the bucket let it go for 24 hours. I use a pineapple top water sprayer for a water fountain to spray water and let it fall through the air. I found the prime has molasses, humeric,fulvic acid,carb ect in it and it really helps support the benis activity once it is fed to the plants. I have a microscope and the prime will grow massive amounts of benis in a short order.

 

[doneit]

Thanks for the input 1200... im hoping RR's teas will do the trick... anxious to try!

 

[richyrich]

Thanks for the input 1200... im hoping RR's teas will do the trick... anxious to try!

Remember, my custom blend hydro tea is secondary. I have 4 to 5 different treatments to kill off the root rot and slime too. My original tea recipe and instructions was a way to just prevent and keep away the slime.

I guess you can say I have still been at war with the slime, lol. I am set on finding a way to kill these damn dreaded mini monsters.

Here read this doneit:


"Phytophthora (from Greek φυτόν (phytón), “plant” and φθορά (phthorá), “destruction”; “the plant-destroyer”) is a genus of plant-damaging Oomycetes (water molds), whose member species are capable of causing enormous economic losses on crops worldwide, as well as environmental damage in natural ecosystems. The cell wall of Phytophthora is made up of cellulose. The genus was first described by Heinrich Anton de Bary in 1875. Approximately 100 species have been described, although 100-500 undiscovered Phytophthora species are estimated to exist.

Phytophthora spp. are mostly pathogens of dicotyledons, and are relatively host-specific parasites. Many species of Phytophthora are plant pathogens of considerable economic importance. Phytophthora infestans was the infective agent of the potato blight that caused the Great Irish Famine (1845-1849), and still remains the most destructive pathogen of solanaceous crops, including tomato and potato. The soya bean root and stem rot agent, Phytophthora sojae, has also caused longstanding problems for the agricultural industry. In general, plant diseases caused by this genus are difficult to control chemically, and thus the growth of resistant cultivars is the main management strategy.

Phytophthora is sometimes referred to as a fungal-like organism but it is classified under a different kingdom altogether: Chromalveolata (formerly Stramenopila and previously Chromista). This is a good example of convergent evolution: Phytophthora is morphologically very similar to true fungi yet its evolutionary history is quite distinct. In contrast to fungi, chromalveolatas are more closely related to plants than animals.

Oomycetes occupy both saprophytic and pathogenic lifestyles – and include some of the most notorious pathogens of plants, causing devastating diseases such as late blight of potato and sudden oak death. They are also often referred to as water molds (or water moulds), although the water-preferring nature which led to that name is not true of most species, which are terrestrial pathogens.

This group was originally classified among the fungi (the name "oomycota" means "egg fungus") and later treated as protists, based on general morphology and lifestyle. A cladistic classification based on modern insights supports a relatively close relationship with photosynthetic organisms such as brown algae and diatoms, within the heterokonts.

Most of the oomycetes produce two distinct types of spores. The main dispersive spores are asexual, self-motile spores called zoospores, which are capable of chemotaxis (movement toward or away from a chemical signal, such as those released by potential food sources) in surface water (including precipitation on plant surfaces). A few oomycetes produce aerial asexual spores that are distributed by wind. They also produce sexual spores, called oospores, that are translucent, double-walled, spherical structures used to survive adverse environmental conditions." -- Wikipedia



I have been suspecting you have this problem. Re-read the sections above in red. This is why your problem is so rampant. You have a beast on your hands and you might have a mutant strain. The typical chemical treatments do no work. It produces two types of spores. It has known resistance already. There are hundreds of types. Your treatments have failed because you need something very target specific.

Did you catch that it is closely related to the brown slime algae, the F'n slime. That is why my approach has been very similar.

This mini monster is named THE PLANT DESTROYER in greek. Your problem is no trivial matter and is beyond typical knowledge found here from what I can tell.

 

[richyrich]

Another thing too if want to help your yeild of your plants if in hydro is get a bottle of ORCA, in coco or soil get great white. Its benificials and microbes. It does have Bactillus strains but not ones needed for pythium and pest control. If in hydro you DO NOT want trichodermia in your system and orca does not have it, use CANN zyme and that will help with healthy roots instead of trich species. Great white has trich in it the differance between the 2.

You do not want to run any kind of enzyme product when you have rot or slime. It is speed for these microbes. The outbreak will happen 10x faster. This has been proven many times over in the original slime thread.

 

[richyrich]

Does this color look familiar?

 

[120Octane]

Once I started using BT the slime and rot has not been back since. I do use BTI to make sure if gnat gets in they dont live long. Yes I am on well water and I do not use RO. Has been 18 month since had to deal with it.

Yes that does look very familiar, is that another way that pyth can get going is from an outdoor source and a gnat getting into your grow?

 

[richyrich]

doneit,

This is what you had posted early on.

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]I Sent to sample out.. one to penn state, and one to wisonsin..
results came back that we have a pythium/rhizotona problem.. lol
No details to exactly what the disease is.

Now.. if i take cuts and give them a physan bath.. i can take them to any other place and they will grow disease free.
This tells me that it is not systemic to the plant.
I now know it is not in the local water or mediums, if i bring in new cuts or seedlings they acquire the disease over night, not using any materials from my spot.
So what ever we have is in spore form and grows EXTREMELY fast.
[/FONT]

^^^ Read above in blue.

I went back thru your old posts to make sure I didn't miss anything. Now from what you stated, physan does seem to kill it, but it starts back up. I suspect that the physan is not getting in contact with all the roots in the pots. When you clean a cut or clone with physan you can get all the rot and spores off easily.

The biggest factor though, is the physan is not killing the spores that are already present. The rot is pumping out spores for survival and they are falling exuded from the roots. Physan will not kill those spores. So cycle starts up again...

You said it starts up seemingly overnight. That sounds about right from the info I posted recently.

Now about that lab report. You said it states pythium/rhizotona problem.

I'm interested in that second word. Did you mis-spell that word by any chance? It's important. Take a look at the lab report and tell me if that second word is really this: Rhizoctonia

There are many types of things that cause root rot other than Pythium. People use pythium as a catch all just like the term root rot.

Now read the following about Rhizoctonia Solani Root Rot. I'm pointing out the color too. That brown to reddish color you showed in a pic. Seems to fit the bill.

"Rhizoctonia root rot is caused by the soilborne fungus Rhizoctonia solani. This fungus can be found in most soils and survives as sclerotia (very resistant fungal survival structures) in soil.

Both pre-emergent and post-emergence seedling death can occur with this disease. Pre-emergence symptoms are seed decay and are often not visible in the field. Post-emergence symptoms on seedlings will be the appearance of brown to reddish lesions on stems and roots just below the soil line. These reddish brown lesions may become sunken and girdle the stems and kill the plant. Plants may often appear stunted and unthrifty throughout the season or, less commonly, will die. Often the stand will appear uneven because of stunted plants. On older plants, the pathogen causes a reddish brown dry cortical root rot that may extend into the base of the stem. Later in the season, infections at the base of the plant (cortical rot) may result in plants snapping off during high winds. Root rot can greatly reduce nodulation. Foliar symptoms may include yellowing or wilting of leaves."

 

[richyrich]

Once I started using BT the slime and rot has not been back since. I do use BTI to make sure if gnat gets in they dont live long. Yes I am on well water and I do not use RO. Has been 18 month since had to deal with it.

Yes that does look very familiar, is that another way that pyth can get going is from an outdoor source and a gnat getting into your grow?

The gnats can absolutely bring in fungus from outdoors. Though, I notice gnats usually stay close to the grow and don't venture far. I have never witnessed them coming from outside. They are usually brought in with clones and plants.

That picture was for doneit. The color matches the fungal problem he posted a pic of earlier.

There is no mechanism of the BT species that I have come across that attacks the slime. I'm assuming it's use out competes the slime from taking a foothold because the BT is using all the available resources in the rez. Just an assumption like I said. Personally, I wouldn't take the chance, but hey it's working for you. Don't fix what isn't broken.

 

[richyrich]

Here is more info on some other nasty root rot critters.


"Phytophthora diseases are soil-borne and based and fungal in nature. They can cause wide-spread problems in plants. However, if crops are monitored and treated effectively, Phytophthora can be controlled.


There are several different types of Phytophthora, including Cinnamomi, Ramorum, Infestans, Capsici and Palmivora. They are known to attack a wide range of plants including pumpkins, watermelons, beans, spinach, turnips and even olive trees.


Signs and Symptoms
Phytophthora Cinnamomi is the most common, destructive and widely distributed species of this disease. It is present in over 70 countries world wide. The pathogen is generally found in areas where the average annual rainfall is greater than 50mm and soils are acidic or neutral and low on nutrients and organic matter. Poor drainage also encourages infection.


Phytophthora Cinnamomi lives in soil and plant tissues. It destroys the structure of root tissues, causing root rot and preventing plants from absorbing water and nutrients. Early symptoms include wilting, yellowing and retention of dried foliage as well as darkening of root colour. If not caught quickly, infection often leads to the death of plants, especially in dry summer conditions.


Phytophthora Ramorum can cause “sudden death” in oak trees. For such massive plants they can decline rapidly, with foliage turning brown in a few weeks. Under moist conditions, spores develop that can spread the disease. Once contracted, it kills portions of bark, resulting in cankers or lesions. The best way to distinguish it is to look for symptoms on other known hosts, such as rhododendrons and bay trees, nearby. If signs are seen on other susceptible plants, they are likely to be stricken with Phytophthora Ramorum.


Phytophthora Infestans causes significant losses in potato crops around the world. It is probably the most significant pathogen of potatoes and tomatoes today. The disease appears as leaf rot or lesions, rot in potatoes themselves, and slightly sunken brown and purple areas.


Other forms of the disease include Phytophthora Capsici, which materializes in the form of water-soaked foliar lesions and stem necrosis and Phytophthora Palmivora, a dark-staining canker. While Capsici is known to affect beans and peas, Palmivora has been witnessed in olive trees and orchids.

 

[richyrich]

The first 3 people that PM me, I have extra concentrated hydro specific tea targeted for root rot, that I will send to you for free. It needs to go out today before it loses it's microbial activity and becomes anaerobic. It can be used in any system, but it was made specifically to target root rot producing microbes. Root rot not necessary.

 

[doneit]

Ok,

You were wright bro, i misspelled , i did an fact mean Rhizoctonia.
What i gathered from the universities reports was nothing... they just gave me a general class of infection that could add up to anything... complete waste of time in my opinion.

As far as the color you mentioned? yes, it is brownish red, not slimy and smells normal.

I have read those descriptions in length many times over the last few yrs, trying to figure out what has been going on..

i have not been able to narrow it down? however.. whatever the ridomil gold is designed to kill is working well... see next post!

 

[doneit]

Now...

For something im totally stoked on!!!!

This is a stardawg cut i brought clean to my bro's spot, it is roughly 30 days cut as a clone, and 10 days in flower.. she was transplanted 10 days ago from a solo cup then flipped.
i treated her with the ridomil gold sl the day i brought her.
She is being fed every other day with 1ppm of pool shock, 2ml dutch master zone, and 1.0 ec maxi bloom per 1 gallon of tap water.

It seems there is some odd and goofy growth on her, for instance some burning and leaf curl... but all in all she looks fucken awesome!
Roots blew outta the container in 5-7 days!!!

This is VERY PROMISING! nothing has worked like this to date.

I am surly going to concentrate more in this set up along with your teas.

the concern i have with the ridimol is how long will it last? will the disease build up a tolerance?

I sent them an email with my system layout and asked them for advice as well..

 

[paperchaser825]

Hi there guys. Haven't read the entire thing yet, but I think I get the gist. My question is, while running a Snype style RDWC and a chiller, will I see any noticeable gains in plant health (hopefully demonstrated by root health) by using JUST aquashield and not making the whole tea. I ask this only because I am of late quite a busy person and I am looking for a bottled solution.

PS: I know you said this (just using an off the shelf bottle) is not going to give me the results the tea will, but I am curious none the less.

 

[doneit]

I cant say for sure about snypes system, however RDWC is proven effective..
If you can keep it disease free without the use of chemicals i would highly recommend it.
Bleach/shock is a pain in the ass at times and not a guarantee by any means..

If you dont have a know problem with your water or atmosphere i would say get to it...

Dont know much about the flakes... thats RR's department..

Either way, good luck!

 

[doneit]

Go figure,
This is the message i received back from sygenta....
Naturally none of the links are any good! lol

Dear Customer,



To better serve you, we ask that you direct questions about Syngenta Flowers, Home & Garden products to your regional territory manager (see list by state below).



We will no longer receive questions at the e-mail address [email protected].



Best regards,

Syngenta Flowers, Home & Garden Technical Services Team





CT, DE, ME, MA, NH, NJ, NY, RI, VT: Meghan Owens ([email protected])

AL, FL, KY, MI, TN: Charles Niemi ([email protected])

GA, MD, NC, SC, VA: Tom Seibert ([email protected])

IA, MI, MN, ND, SD, WI: Jeff Hermes ([email protected])

IL, IN, OH, PA, WV: Dean Bemis ([email protected])

AR, CO, KS, LA, MO, NE, NM, OK, TX: Foster McWhorter ([email protected])

AK, ID, MT, OR, UT, WA, WY: Al Toops ([email protected])

AZ, CA, HI, NV: Ryan O’Callaghan ([email protected])

 

[paperchaser825]

Dont know much about the flakes... thats RR's department..

Either way, good luck!

Not Aquaflakes, Aquashield.....which is apparently just chicken shit in a bottle or something like it?

 

[richyrich]

Hi there guys. Haven't read the entire thing yet, but I think I get the gist. My question is, while running a Snype style RDWC and a chiller, will I see any noticeable gains in plant health (hopefully demonstrated by root health) by using JUST aquashield and not making the whole tea. I ask this only because I am of late quite a busy person and I am looking for a bottled solution.

PS: I know you said this (just using an off the shelf bottle) is not going to give me the results the tea will, but I am curious none the less.

As far as running recirculating, that opens you up to infection to all your plants in the future. That's just fyi. You may never get infected and hopefully so. I use to run that way before the slime and it was great.

DWC was the first way I ever grew and it's awesome. If you have no root infections, go for it and run aquashield. It benefits some. Usually it lets you get away with slightly higher water temps but that is not an issue for you if you have that chiller.

I would suggest a hydro specific tea, of course, to blow them roots out for a bigger yield, increased up-feed by the plants, and good ol' prevention from root infections. Aquashield alone will not provide for all of that.

Btw, I can almost guarantee you could lose the chiller if you ran a hydro specific tea as long as your water temps don't go past around 78 F. In such a scenario, the roots will grow faster as seen in several ez cloner posts with tea incorporated running high water temps. I would also increase the amount of air pumped into the rez since a higher water temp will mean the water will hold less oxygen saturation.