ButterflyEffect
Well-known member
Keep light off of your water containers and algae won't grow.
Everything is light proof. Each res is outside of their rooms and the lines that feed are that black pond tubing.
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Can't figure this deficiency out
- Thread starter ButterflyEffect
- Start date
Everything is light proof. Each res is outside of their rooms and the lines that feed are that black pond tubing.
BobChronic6505
Active member
Do you foliar feed with the lights on? What are the odds that those spots on the leaf are burns? Such as nutrient excess burn combined with light burn? Is the one clone showing these symptoms directly under your light? Or maybe in a hot zone?
ButterflyEffect
Well-known member
I only started foliar after the issue cropped up. Even then, I was spraying from behind so it was out of the light. The plants are all the same distance from the light, too.
ButterflyEffect
Well-known member
Here's a pic of some leaves that are on the outside of the donut, so they're not in direct light. The one in the middle is from inside in the light, the other two are from the backside.
How about a picture of the whole plant, and where it's growing?
Supplemental reading material for you, ButterflyEffect
https://www.bonzaseeds.com/blog/boron-deficiency-treatment-prevention/
https://www.bonzaseeds.com/blog/boron-deficiency-treatment-prevention/
ButterflyEffect
Well-known member
I'll grab one tonight just before lights on so I can get a good shot. Thanks!
ButterflyEffect
Well-known member
Thanks Buzz! Good to see you again. Hope things are well.
One thing I don't get is how a Boron deficiency, or any one for that matter, would pop up on just that plant. They're all cloned from the same plant snd they're all fed from the same res. They're all the same distance from the light and there's no other differentiating conditions(Fan blowing directly on it, etc)
Very odd.
I have started something new that I've never done in the years I've been growing here and that's adding Cal-Mag to the rainwater beforehand. We'll see where that goes.
ButterflyEffect
Well-known member
Hey f-e. Good to see you.
I'll check the runoff pH tonight, as well. Historically, my runoff pH is high in these hempys. Like at least 7 which I find weird. Even when the plants look amazing, the runoff pH is high. Everything I've read says to not worry but that just seems odd, too.
I'll run the calmag until I get a system down for the well water. You think that's a good idea huh? It sounded good in my head but I wanted to corroborate it with the knowledge base here. Nice thing is I won't nearly be at risk of running out of water, especially in the winter time!
ButterflyEffect
Well-known member
So, I measured runoff tonight. 1000ppm and 7.0pH(Input is 5.8). The absolute lowest I've ever seen the runoff pH in my hempys is 6.5. Doesn't matter what the plants look like. I would be lying if I said I even remotely understand the science as to why it's that way.
Now the ppm is interesting. Normally my input ppm is close to 800, so 1000 wouldn't be unusual. I popped the meter into the res and to my surprise, it was 650! Apparently, at some point, I started topping the res off so it would last longer before I needed to redo it. The problem with that is my dumb ass never adjusted the amount of food.
I did spray with a Boron foliar tonight and tomorrow I'll flush that one and check the others. I need to get on the ball and finish connecting my automatic flush system. It's mostly in place, I just need to finish it. This way, It'll automatically run plain water through the pots at a specified interval just to keep buildup at a minimum.
ButterflyEffect
Well-known member
Please read the post before this one. I added some possibly important details.
Here's the pics....The last picture is actually from a plant 2 over from the bad one. So I guess it's not just this one, it's just the only one this bad.
Interesting. I felt sure the pH would be low. However... I'm not convinced it's right.
With such clean water, and a feed not balanced accordingly, the pH will be very easy to push around. Do you actually set the pH yourself, or does it just fall at about 5.8 itself? If you do set it, does it take very little.
You could just buy some calcium carbonate. It's quite cheap. They literally dig it up out the ground. You want 30-50ppm of hardness, and often people just go with 75ppm.
I'm not sure why you see 7. That might be what the substrate is. However, it's more likely the pH altering as the roots work with an ion exchange. As they take in stuff with a charge, they must loose stuff with a charge, like a swap, to keep themselves at the same charge. Yeah.. that made a lot of sense. They give out H which can exist as H+ or H- if I'm reading it right. It's the H our pH meter reads. So, taking up food, means dropping the stuff the pH meter reads. If you only have food in your solution, then the effect of taking food is profound for the pH reading. That is why we must have more than food present. Something else that offers resistance to change. Our buffer.
Watching runoff pH tells the experienced grower what is being eaten. However, you have such low buffering, in a form that the plant can eat, that such analysis is near impossible.
I feel fairly sure you have bad pH issues from the pics, and the feed solution does seem inadequate to combat such problems. Some hardness would be my first move.
It might not work.. but I would have to start somewhere. Hardness and calmag. Don't be tight with it either. A couple of ml per liter might be needed, and that will bring N into your mix if you don't get a flowering variant (or buy canna mono calcium and some epsom salt)
With such clean water, and a feed not balanced accordingly, the pH will be very easy to push around. Do you actually set the pH yourself, or does it just fall at about 5.8 itself? If you do set it, does it take very little.
You could just buy some calcium carbonate. It's quite cheap. They literally dig it up out the ground. You want 30-50ppm of hardness, and often people just go with 75ppm.
I'm not sure why you see 7. That might be what the substrate is. However, it's more likely the pH altering as the roots work with an ion exchange. As they take in stuff with a charge, they must loose stuff with a charge, like a swap, to keep themselves at the same charge. Yeah.. that made a lot of sense. They give out H which can exist as H+ or H- if I'm reading it right. It's the H our pH meter reads. So, taking up food, means dropping the stuff the pH meter reads. If you only have food in your solution, then the effect of taking food is profound for the pH reading. That is why we must have more than food present. Something else that offers resistance to change. Our buffer.
Watching runoff pH tells the experienced grower what is being eaten. However, you have such low buffering, in a form that the plant can eat, that such analysis is near impossible.
I feel fairly sure you have bad pH issues from the pics, and the feed solution does seem inadequate to combat such problems. Some hardness would be my first move.
It might not work.. but I would have to start somewhere. Hardness and calmag. Don't be tight with it either. A couple of ml per liter might be needed, and that will bring N into your mix if you don't get a flowering variant (or buy canna mono calcium and some epsom salt)
ButterflyEffect
Well-known member
I do set the pH. It usually comes out to 4.8ish after mixing the food. I use potassium bicarbonate as up. I used to only need very little adjustment but after using the calmag, I need like 4 times as much to get the pH to 5.8. That's of course a recent development, as I only just started using the calmag the other day.
I'm not sure why I see 7 either. I've never seen anything but. Maybe it's the unbuffered water, who knows. It's something I don't really understand. I do know that everyone says to not worry about the pH in hempys. I always felt that was a dubious thing. I do want to get away from hempys but I just don't know what kind of setup to go with yet. Running 3 rooms on a perpetual makes me have to think very carefully about making rash changes wholesale like that.
I do kind of understand what you're saying about the rootzone pH. I'm a bit lost on what role a buffer plays and how that plays out if you don't have one, though.
I'll say one thing, I've always had problems at this location to the point that I feel like a complete novice grower. I never had issues like this when I grew with city water, so I know it's a water issue. I just thought it was pathogens and whatnot in the water. I never thought about buffers, or the lack thereof.
I ordered more CaliMagic Calmag to get me by for now. I'll bump my feed up to where it should be since it's 150ppm too low. Clearly the closer to the lights the leaves are, the more they show deficiencies likely due in part to the feed ppm being way low.
I'm gonna have to see where I can get some mono calcium as it seems you're giving me the ingredients to a DIY Calmag.
Thanks as always for your very insightful advice.
No problem.
I use the Canna Mono range for a few things. I think I pay about a tenner (13$) a liter. It's 8.3% elemental calcium, or about 12% CaO. Most calmag is about 5% CaO so it's not bad value. No buffering though I don't think.
If I had to pick the deficiencies I would say P K Ca so perhaps low food, especially showing near the lights. Which would say Ca as the others are mobile arn't they? Ca can show as many issues, before we see more specific signs. So many processes just don't happen without it.
Edit: It's not very often we see people using up. Which is addressing the feeds acidity.
I was once in that situation, and had crap plants until I stopped using the up. I just ran with the 4.8 (coincidence) through my rockwool, and also got about 7 out iirc. They were happy, and looked alright, but at the weigh in, I had to do a double take and get a new trimming hand.
I use the Canna Mono range for a few things. I think I pay about a tenner (13$) a liter. It's 8.3% elemental calcium, or about 12% CaO. Most calmag is about 5% CaO so it's not bad value. No buffering though I don't think.
If I had to pick the deficiencies I would say P K Ca so perhaps low food, especially showing near the lights. Which would say Ca as the others are mobile arn't they? Ca can show as many issues, before we see more specific signs. So many processes just don't happen without it.
Edit: It's not very often we see people using up. Which is addressing the feeds acidity.
I was once in that situation, and had crap plants until I stopped using the up. I just ran with the 4.8 (coincidence) through my rockwool, and also got about 7 out iirc. They were happy, and looked alright, but at the weigh in, I had to do a double take and get a new trimming hand.
ButterflyEffect
Well-known member
So at this point my game plan is going to be...
1) Adjust the feed up to where it needs to be
2) Continue using calmag until I can get 20% well water in my tanks
3) Keep a much closer eye on the inputs and runoff
What are your thoughts on Potassium Silicate as a buffer? I use it weekly in Veg but I don't in flower. I've seen a few threads here and there that suggest using it for a buffer. at 1ml/Gallon it would require me to use a small amount of pH down(I currently use sulfuric acid) to get the pH to ~5.8.
From what I read and observed, if you water in ph5.8 and get a return of ph7, that means your medium is most probably as far up from ph7 as the difference between ph in and runoff ph.
Cause your medium is not fast enaugh in changing the ph of the nutrient solution passing through it and bring it at same ph as the medim itself that fast. It just alters it in a certain direction. So if you are getting 7, ph in your rootzone might be 7+ by much. One thing is clear, its over 7 no matter what. If that raise is just from plants eating what you put in, maybe they need more feedings, so the raise never gets as high.
One test you could do is take 4 parts pure water (distilled) and 1 part of your growing mix and mix them to make a slurry. Leave it settle for a while, then measure ph of the water. That reading should be only 0.4 to 0.7 PH points away from lab measured ph. And you will know if your ph is too high. Cause that's what you want to check in this case, anyway. I am no expert by any means but I had and have problems as well with ph, so I had to research a lot and test a lot to figure out where I am standing.
Cause your medium is not fast enaugh in changing the ph of the nutrient solution passing through it and bring it at same ph as the medim itself that fast. It just alters it in a certain direction. So if you are getting 7, ph in your rootzone might be 7+ by much. One thing is clear, its over 7 no matter what. If that raise is just from plants eating what you put in, maybe they need more feedings, so the raise never gets as high.
One test you could do is take 4 parts pure water (distilled) and 1 part of your growing mix and mix them to make a slurry. Leave it settle for a while, then measure ph of the water. That reading should be only 0.4 to 0.7 PH points away from lab measured ph. And you will know if your ph is too high. Cause that's what you want to check in this case, anyway. I am no expert by any means but I had and have problems as well with ph, so I had to research a lot and test a lot to figure out where I am standing.
Three Berries
Active member
I use Calcium Acetate. 25% Ca and water soluble. It can be immediately used by the plant. I apply it by itself, don't mix with any other nutes.
ButterflyEffect
Well-known member
I like that test idea. I'll do that today and report back. I always thought it was odd that everyone that talks about hempy pots say to ignore the runoff pH and I felt that was unwise. It's also clear I'm underfeeding by quite a bit, so I'll adjust that and retest the runoff, as well. Thanks for the input.
ButterflyEffect
Well-known member
Where do you get it? Is it in powder form? Any issues I should be concerned about with an acetate?
