Cannabis Connoisseurs' Obsession with Potency?

[illuminatus]

I don't know about you, but I've never smoked mj that was to potent. I can't wait till I find some, when I do I'll let you all know about it.

 

[Guest]

The smells got me. Man, I love the way good pot smells.

To be honest, I don't smoke it very often anymore, haven't had any in probably 18 months. Don't eat it, don't vaporize it, just smell it and look at it. Just grow it for the smell and beauty.

Seriously.

When I get a good plant going, just walking into the room and taking a big whiff, I can feel that warm pressure in my forehead behind my eyes building, my skin gets tingly, all that. I get about 50% high just being in the room with them, looking at the leaves and inhaling the aromas. The aromatic terpenes are mostly satisfying enough, mmmmmmm.

I'm not addicted to the high, I'm addicted to being around the plant.

How ****ing weird is that?

I love that plant... Why the hell does it have to be illegal. Gahhh.

 

[THC•20]

The smells got me. Man, I love the way good pot smells.

To be honest, I don't smoke it very often anymore, haven't had any in probably 18 months. Don't eat it, don't vaporize it, just smell it and look at it. Just grow it for the smell and beauty.

Seriously.

When I get a good plant going, just walking into the room and taking a big whiff, I can feel that warm pressure in my forehead behind my eyes building, my skin gets tingly, all that. I get about 50% high just being in the room with them, looking at the leaves and inhaling the aromas. The aromatic terpenes are mostly satisfying enough, mmmmmmm.

I'm not addicted to the high, I'm addicted to being around the plant.

How ****ing weird is that?

I love that plant... Why the hell does it have to be illegal. Gahhh.

Wow that's so odd, I never heard of any one growing weed and not using it lol.

 

[Truthman]

I don't think this has been mentioned but diet & exercise plays a big part in being able to get high on herb that is say 5%-10% thc and also how your taste buds react to certain flavors.

An example is fats, most don't know that eating different types of fats will help with your cells uptake of cannabinoids and terpenoids and how long they will stay on the cell wall because they each do something different.

For example, short and medium chain fats get the cell walls to become more flexible and to allow the heavier oils to attach easier BUT they don't last that long, this is when the saturated fats help because they keep the fats in place longer BUT if there is too much saturated fat, the cell walls will become stiif and this is where the monounstaurated fats help because they keep the cell membrane flexible but for a longer time than the short and medium chain fats but they too have a little sautrated fat in them and this is where the polyunsaturated fat comes in and keeps the cell flexible for a longer time because they stay liquid constantly.

These fat keep the cannabinoids and terpenoids in the cell membranes for a longer time than someone who doesn't eat right and have a flexible cell membrane and would therefore NEED a potent herb just to feel the regular effects they used to because their cell membrane is too stiff.

It also means that they won't have enough of the hormones in a balanced ratio, that cannabis releases and gives the highs that each strain is known for.

This is why a diet high in good fats, complex carbs, and protein is needed to feel the optimum effects of cannabis without needing a potent strain to do this. Of course potency makes it even better but it isn't needed.

Antioxidants & vitamins is another thing that is needed because they keep the oils from oxidizing which will keep the cannabinoids from degrading which means a longer high as well as help make more hormones and start certain processes in the body going.

You also don't have the paranoia, sweating, and anxiety that comes along with smoking potent hash because your body is well equipped to deal with the potency of the herb and the quick changes in the body that comes along with ingesting/inhaling potent herbs.

So, in order to truly be able to judge what each strain really does, you have to have your body in optimum strength so your nerves can handle these potent herbs, this is where exercise comes in, and you need a huge amount of chemicals stored so your body can release what's needed when certain chemicals bind to certain receptors.

 

[titoon29]

Wow Thruthman what you just said is very interesting !
Thank a lot for this explanation, i never realised high could be so linked to food... Do you have links to special diet to have fun.... ??
Another question, if you've got some time...
At the beginning, you talk about diet and exercise... How exercise influence on the high ? Your body eliminate quickly the cannabinoids in the fat so it is not used to thc ?...

About THC rate, like you probably knows, too many people think it's the best way to evaluate the potency of weed, but there are more than sixty other cannabinoids ( CBD,CBN are the best known) which could be much stronger than THC, and be a big influence on the potency... My little brick in the wall ^^

Thanks again

Titoon

 

[JDOG6000]

I admit, I love to get lit on some dank OG Kush or some crazy Haze hybrid. But all and all I smoke for flavor also.
For example Purple strains.
I smoke till I'm nice and lit on whatever various potent strains...then I bust out the purple Urkle or sr 71 purple Kush to get a mouth full of spicey grape skunk.
One of the things I love about my orange Kush is the smell of the smoke in the air. It's part of the whole experience to me.
It adds to the taste. But that strain is very potent too. So it's got it all, IMO. Only thing is it developes a tolerance very quickly. Kind of like Sour Diesel does. So it can't be smoked all day long. But it's great sleep meds for the late night sesh. Puts me out.
So alot of the time I'm just smoking because I want to get that taste back in my mouth. I love my organic flavors. Espesially the Kushes and dawgs. What a flavor. Plus it just sticks in your mouth for so long. Blue Moonshine was like that too.Crazy musky Blueberry skunk. I also like that spicey skunk taste that haze leaves in your mouth. SO many reason to smoke weed other then getting high. I believe alot of smokers are like me, whether they realize it or not.

 

[Truthman]

titton29, Just eat whole foods like dry beans(soaked overnight), rice and other grains, and a lot of fruits and vegetables.

Also, for fats take coconut oil( saturated fat, medium chat fats), ghee(clarified butter) for short chain fats and the more yellow the better, extra virgin olive oil (monounsaturated fat), and hemp oil or sunflower oil(polyunsaturated fat).

Eating a lot of different nuts and seeds will help this also because they are high in different fats as well as complex carbs and protein.

One important thing a lot don't know is to eat these foods within an 1.5 hr before AND after a workout because this is when the body makes use of these nutrients at optimum level.

Also, remember cannabinoids are in the fat and the body doesn't separate just the cannabinoids, it puts any excess calorie in the fat cell, cannabinoids just happen to be in the fat when it goes to be stored.

This is another reason why exercising benefits the high because it ups your metabolsim which means that more of what you eat/inhale will be used instead of stored as it does when someone who has a slower metabolsim.

Hope this helps. Peace.

 

[titoon29]

Hey truthman, you're quickman today

Thanks a lot for your reply so quick and clear.
Your explanation is really good, i think i've understand all of it... i'll try to apply that in the following weeks...
Anyways, good to learn it !

Thx again

Titoon

 

[Truthman]

I forgot to mention you might want to choose hemp over sunflower oil because it contains the healthy omega 3 acids which sunflower oil doesn't BUT you can use both of them just use them in seed form because polyunsaturated fats can deteriorate fast if not kept in proper storage.

If you don't have the money now just eat them in whole form. You can get some dehulled hemp seeds and sunflower seeds on the net or any health food store.

If you have the money a milk machine would be the best way to ingest nuts and seeds because you can make a nut and seed milk.

Here's a good one:
http://www.soymilkquick.com/

 

[Dignan]

Truthman (that's quite a name to live up to! Yikes!)

That might explain my low tolerance to all drugs. Been that way since I was a child. I don't have adverse reactions, but I feel the effects on lower dosages. Even OTC drugs, I mean. I'm a long-time competitive cyclist and I also regularly take flax oil supplements for a very mild skin condition I have. If a strain is very potent, I can take 3 tokes and be stoned out of my gourd for 3 hours.

 

[Guest]

I had a situation going where I would give out samples of powerful Sour Bubble to freinds for testing. Obviously they would come back for more, and many were given other strains when they came back. Well after smoking Sour Bubble, they would say that the other strains just wernt as good. But after they got the Sour Bubble out of there system they realized that the other stash was really good, but the Sour B was just so much more potent. You can actually feel the Sour B hit your brain after taking a hit.

 

[house]

An example is fats, most don't know that eating different types of fats will help with your cells uptake of cannabinoids and terpenoids and how long they will stay on the cell wall because they each do something different.

Humans don't have cell walls, but we do have cell membranes

For example, short and medium chain fats get the cell walls to become more flexible and to allow the heavier oils to attach easier BUT they don't last that long, this is when the saturated fats help because they keep the fats in place longer BUT if there is too much saturated fat, the cell walls will become stiif and this is where the monounstaurated fats help because they keep the cell membrane flexible but for a longer time than the short and medium chain fats but they too have a little saturated fat in them and this is where the polyunsaturated fat comes in and keeps the cell flexible for a longer time because they stay liquid constantly.

If you meant cell membranes I've never heard of this. My understanding was that cell membranes are quite stable in their composition and not significantly affected by diet. There is a very delicate physiologic balance and if diet changed fat permeability to any significant extent it would have disastrous effects on the body's other essential functions.

These fat keep the cannabinoids and terpenoids in the cell membranes for a longer time than someone who doesn't eat right and have a flexible cell membrane and would therefore NEED a potent herb just to feel the regular effects they used to because their cell membrane is too stiff.

Psychoactive affects come from binding of cannabinoids to cannabinoid receptors on neuronal tissue. Flexibility of the membrane plays no role. The receptors are on the surface of the membrane and do not need to pass through it.

It also means that they won't have enough of the hormones in a balanced ratio, that cannabis releases and gives the highs that each strain is known for.

What hormones are these?

This is why a diet high in good fats, complex carbs, and protein is needed to feel the optimum effects of cannabis without needing a potent strain to do this. Of course potency makes it even better but it isn't needed.

I agree that diet can have subjective affects but they won't be necessarily better or worse. E.g. a poor diet can reduce the body's metabolism rate for THC and prolong its activity.

Antioxidants & vitamins is another thing that is needed because they keep the oils from oxidizing which will keep the cannabinoids from degrading which means a longer high as well as help make more hormones and start certain processes in the body going.

THC and other active cannabinoids degrade principly by hydroxylation, not oxidation.

You also don't have the paranoia, sweating, and anxiety that comes along with smoking potent hash because your body is well equipped to deal with the potency of the herb and the quick changes in the body that comes along with ingesting/inhaling potent herbs.

Those symptoms are psychological and heavily dependent on the mindset of the individual. Although eating a better diet has been shown to help anxiety which would put the using in a better mindset.

So, in order to truly be able to judge what each strain really does, you have to have your body in optimum strength so your nerves can handle these potent herbs, this is where exercise comes in, and you need a huge amount of chemicals stored so your body can release what's needed when certain chemicals bind to certain receptors.

I agreed with your main point, having a healthy body enhances my high but for different reasons then you mention. I.e. if we feel great already from being healthy that will just add to the joy of the high.

 

[Truthman]

Humans don't have cell walls, but we do have cell membranes
If you meant cell membranes I've never heard of this. My understanding was that cell membranes are quite stable in their composition and not significantly affected by diet. There is a very delicate physiologic balance and if diet changed fat permeability to any significant extent it would have disastrous effects on the body's other essential functions.

Psychoactive affects come from binding of cannabinoids to cannabinoid receptors on neuronal tissue. Flexibility of the membrane plays no role. The receptors are on the surface of the membrane and do not need to pass through it.
What hormones are these?

I agree that diet can have subjective affects but they won't be necessarily better or worse. E.g. a poor diet can reduce the body's metabolism rate for THC and prolong its activity.

THC and other active cannabinoids degrade principly by hydroxylation, not oxidation.

Those symptoms are psychological and heavily dependent on the mindset of the individual. Although eating a better diet has been shown to help anxiety which would put the using in a better mindset.

I agreed with your main point, having a healthy body enhances my high but for different reasons then you mention. I.e. if we feel great already from being healthy that will just add to the joy of the high.

I meant cell membrane and not wall I thought I edited it BUT if your read with comprehension you can see this but I will give you credit.

Look all over the internet to find out about how fats effect cell membranes but here's something to help you out:

http://www.nature.com/horizon/livingfrontier/background/fat.html
The need for fat

John Whitfield

Why do cell membranes require many types of lipid? The answer lies in the many conditions that the membrane needs to carry out its many functions in a cell."

Obviously, the cell membrane has some sort of fluidity to be able to function or we wouldn't be here BUT diet plays a major part of enhancing this or making it even stiffer. For example too much cholesterol being oxidized makes the cell membrane more stiff which makes it harder for the cell to bring in nutrients as well as get rid of garbage. This is one of the reasons why older people don't take in nutrients as they should. Also, thc itself as well as terpenoids(essential oils) alter the fluidity of a cells membrane.

As far as membrane fluidity not affecting receptors that's also not true. Again here is something that talks about this briefly and again for more info do a google search:

http://ajpgi.physiology.org/cgi/content/full/277/1/G201

"Bacterial binding to host cells is generally the result of a specific interaction between a surface ligand expressed by the prokaryote and a eukaryotic plasma membrane receptor (30). The conformation of membrane receptors can be altered by changing the physical properties of the plasma membrane (28). One way of influencing the physical properties of membranes is to change membrane fluidity. Previous studies have reported that binding of soluble mediators to surface receptors can be modulated by altering the membrane fluidity of target cells (2, 23, 27). Heron et al. (13) showed that fluidization of membrane lipids by treatment with linoleic acid causes a decrease in the binding of serotonin. Similarly, changing the fluidity of mouse hepatocyte membranes reduces the binding of prolactin (8). Changes in membrane fluidity not only reduce the affinity of binding of the chemotactic peptide formyl-Met-Leu-Phe to its membrane receptor but the downstream signal transduction events that mediate the varied biological activities of formyl-Met-Leu-Phe are also affected (31)."


As far as what hormones are released, lets just start with catecholamines. Catecholamine has been shown to be use up when thc is in the system. Again here is something to get you started:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=2985210&dopt=AbstractPlus


"Effect of delta 9-THC on brain and plasma catecholamine levels as measured by HPLC.
Patel V, Borysenko M, Kumar MS.

The effects of chronic administration of delta 9-tetrahydrocannabinol (delta 9-THC) on the plasma and brain catecholamine (CA) levels were measured using high performance liquid chromatography-electrochemical detection (LC-EC) system. Intact male rats were injected daily with vehicle (50 microliter oil) or with delta 9-THC (3 mg/kg body wt) over a period of 25 days. Trunk plasma and tissue from preoptic area (POA) and mediobasal hypothalamus (MBH) were collected and catecholamine levels were detected by LC-EC system coupled to an electronic integrator. Alumina extract of tissue and plasma samples, spiked with the internal standard (dihydroxybenzylamine), were injected into the LC-EC system; the CA were chromatographed and eluted within 12 minutes using sodium phosphate buffer as the mobile phase. delta 9-THC treatment resulted in a significant decrease in plasma and MBH levels of norepinephrine (NE), epinephrine (E), POA levels of NE; and significant increases in MBH levels of dopamine (DA) and dihydroxyphenylacetic acid (DOPAC). Our study indicates for the first time that delta 9-THC treatment significantly alters not only the POA and MBH CA levels, but also the plasma CA levels.

PMID: 2985210 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]"

Cannabis also affect melatonin but you can look for that yourself.

Having a slow metabolism WON'T prolong thc's activity just simply because it won't get used up. The body will quickly put it into fat cells. This is why people get fat who are seditary which is because they consume more than they use up.

Cannabis does degrade by oxidation due to the free radicals. Look at it like this if cannabis is attached to fat that suck up oxygen, which is what fat does, eventually the oxygen will beat it down and degrade it. This is one reason why thc is shown to be a potent antioxidant which I feel is because it is made to protect the plant when it is grown in an oxygen rich environment which is outside.

AGAIN, I will give you a start showing the antioxidant capabilties of cannabinoids. Keep in mind if it is an antioxidant eventually the oxygen created free radical WILL eventually degrade it.

http://www.pnas.org/cgi/reprint/95/14/8268.pdf
Cannabidiol and ( - ) Delta 9-tetrahydrocannabinol are neuroprotective antioxidants

Paranoia & anxiety are symptoms that are very real and is due to the thc being a stimulant releasing adrenal hormones and this gets the body going. If you don't have enough yet still ingest high amounts of thc, you will get these symptoms. This is why I feel vitamin C is one of the main things that can prevent this. I KNOW for a fact this one little thing when taken in the right amount and at the right time prevents these problems. I've done as well as others. This why people who take small puffs don't get symptoms yet if they keep going the problems start and its due to the lack of the body being able to handle the excess stimulation being inside it from the thc, which is a stimulant.

 

[Truthman]

Here's something else that talks about cell membrane, fats, hormone response and fluidity:
http://www.kronosinstitute.org/1/3/32/current_research.html

"Cell Membrane Lipids and Hormone Responsiveness
Sub-study 1: Effects of Omega-3 Polyunsaturated Fatty Acids on Cognitive Function and Endocrine and Immune Regulation in Older Men and Women.

Principal Investigator: S. Mitchell Harman, MD, PhD
Co-investigators: Panayiotis D. Tsitouras, MD, Frank Gucciardo, PA, Christopher Heward, PhD, Taylor J. Marcell, PhD, Joseph Bleiberg, PhD

Experimental data in animals and in humans suggest that there is an age-related loss of responsiveness of target cells to the hormones and cytokines, which normally regulate their activities. In a few studies this age-related change has been improved by altering the fat content of the cell membrane. This effect may be due to changes in the physical characteristics of the membrane (improved fluidity, reduced viscosity) or to other actions of unsaturated fatty acids. To understand why this might be, one needs to know how hormones and cytokines work. These chemical messengers are mainly large molecules, proteins and peptides, which cannot cross the cell membrane. Therefore, in order for hormones and cytokines to influence what happens inside the cell, they must transmit a signal across the cell's outer membrane to alter the biochemical activity within the target cell. This "transduction" of chemical signals from outside to inside the cell is accomplished via special protein molecules called "receptors," which are imbedded in the cell's outer membrane. One part of the receptor molecule faces outward while another portion is inside, in contact with the cytoplasm. The outer portion of the receptor binds specifically to a particular hormone or cytokine (known generically as a "ligand") because the receptor's 3-dimensional structure and distribution of electron charge precisely complement those of the ligand - like two pieces of a sophisticated jigsaw puzzle. When the receptor is occupied by its specific ligand, it alters its 3-dimensional configuration and/or may become bound to a second receptor molecule (dimerize). These changes lead either to alteration (activation or inactivation) of the enzymatic activity of the portion of the receptor inside the cell or to the opening of a pore (hole) in the cell membrane which allows particular ions (like calcium, potassium, or chloride) to leak in or out. In either case, the change in receptor activity influences events within the cell, thus conveying the messenger's signal. Note that, in order for the receptor to function properly, it must change its 3-dimensional configuration or "move" while remaining imbedded in the cell membrane. However, cell membranes have been shown to become stiff and viscous with age, as oxidized and otherwise damaged lipids and lipoproteins accumulate within its matrix. Cell membrane fluidity has been shown to increase when fats containing unsaturated fatty acids are substituted for saturated fat in the diet. Moreover, antioxidant vitamins, such as vitamin E, have been reported to improve insulin sensitivity, possibly by reducing the amount of oxidized fat in cell membranes.

A conceptually similar mechanism (signal propagation), also associated with changes in the cell membrane, appears to be, at least partially, responsible for many of the changes observed in cognitive impairment diseases associated with advancing age. The brain of mammals contains high amounts of polyunsaturated fatty acids (PUFA), especially DHA. There are two kinds of PUFA. One kind, the most common, found in most vegetable oils, is called omega-6; another, found mostly in fish, soybean oil and walnuts, is called omega-3. There is growing evidence that the amount and type (omega-3 vs. omega-6) of PUFA found in the cell membranes of our brain cells is, to a large extent, controlled by our diet.

The importance of omega-3 PUFA in the development and proper function of the brain has been shown in many animals and some human research studies. There is much evidence that omega-3 PUFA is required for proper brain development in infants and children. We believe that omega-3 food intake may also influence rate of loss of some functions with aging.

A large number of older individuals suffer from mild memory loss, known as ARCD (age-related cognitive decline). However, elderly men in Southern Italy, who consume a typical Mediterranean diet, rich in olive oil and fish, appear to be protected. Also, degenerative diseases of the nervous system, like Parkinson's and Alzheimer's, appear to be associated with decreases in the PUFA content of the cell membrane of the nerve cells. These changes can affect proper cell communication and function (signal propagation).

It is possible to achieve significant changes in the type of fat molecules found in cell membranes after relatively short periods of dietary modifications. We are investigating the effects of an omega-3 enriched diet in men and women over 60 years old. We want to see if we can improve mental function, hormone levels at rest and/or under stress, and immune function, toward a pattern more like that of younger individuals. "

 

[Closet Funk]

I consider myself a cannabis connoisseur. Taste comes first though then quality of high. I also like to puff some sativas during the day for a high that matches that part of the day. Then at night hit up a nice indica and lay back. Potency is important but not as important as taste.

 

[Truthman]

Here's something else showing cannabis antioxidant ability. Again keep in mind that when the cannabinoids are in the cell membrane which will have some type of fat in it, they are going to experience some type of free radical damage from the oxygen creating the free radicals and this leads to oxidation.

Another thing to keep in mind with this study is that the cannabinoids weren't in the receptors when they did this:

http://jpet.aspetjournals.org/cgi/content/full/293/3/807
Cannabinoids Protect Cells from Oxidative Cell Death: A Receptor-Independent Mechanism

 

[Chamba]

I think our body's ability to absorb THC is enhanced by great tasting, smooth toking ganja.....our lungs are more receptive to non-irritating, sweet tasting smoke, so we get higher from it (or utilize it to the fullest extent)...the opposite occurs with harsh, expando smoke.

Truthman.....shhhhh about fats!.....next thing you know the DEA will have a press conference to announce they are banning fries

 

[Chamba]

I've said for a long time.....it's all about taste for me!!!

each to his own....you probably like decaffinated coffee, nicotine free tobacco or non-alcohol beer too..ha!

if ganja had zero effects on the brain, but smelled and tasted as fantastic as it does, it would probably be extinct by now.

I'd rate the quality of the high as about 50 times more important than it's smell or taste.

 

[Core]

i for one like'm combined ..looks,trich smell taste...and with real cannabis connaissance...you would be the able 2 distinc many diffrent kinds of strains...just by what i stated above....not 2 speak of the sort of cultivation that is used...(chemical or organic 2 name something) hydro or soil...these thing would of be taken in consideration...

but in the end....we just need 2 get in the 7th heaven sortta speak...no BS about that :wink:

 

[house]

http://www.nature.com/horizon/livingfrontier/background/fat.html

I stand corrected, thanks for the link

http://ajpgi.physiology.org/cgi/content/full/277/1/G201

This link says linoleic acid, an unsaturated fatty acid reduced serotonin, prolactin and formyl-Met-Leu-Phe binding. How does reduced affinity from membrane fluidization make them stay in them membrane longer and give a better high? Wouldn't the opposite occur?

Having a slow metabolism WON'T prolong thc's activity just simply because it won't get used up. The body will quickly put it into fat cells. This is why people get fat who are seditary which is because they consume more than they use up.

Sure it will, THC doesn't stay in fat cells indefinitely, it eventually exits back into the bloodstream as an active compound where it can bind to cb receptors

Cannabis does degrade by oxidation due to the free radicals. Look at it like this if cannabis is attached to fat that suck up oxygen, which is what fat does, eventually the oxygen will beat it down and degrade it. This is one reason why thc is shown to be a potent antioxidant which I feel is because it is made to protect the plant when it is grown in an oxygen rich environment which is outside.

I agree oxidation occurs but oxidation from free radicals is not the principle means of degradation. THC is mainly metabolized by enzyme hydroxylation, this is apparent from looking at the metabolites.

Paranoia & anxiety are symptoms that are very real and is due to the thc being a stimulant releasing adrenal hormones and this gets the body going.

From your own citation THC reduces these adrenal hormones:"delta 9-THC treatment resulted in a significant decrease in plasma and MBH levels of norepinephrine (NE), epinephrine (E)"

If you don't have enough yet still ingest high amounts of thc, you will get these symptoms. This is why I feel vitamin C is one of the main things that can prevent this. I KNOW for a fact this one little thing when taken in the right amount and at the right time prevents these problems. I've done as well as others. This why people who take small puffs don't get symptoms yet if they keep going the problems start and its due to the lack of the body being able to handle the excess stimulation being inside it from the thc, which is a stimulant.

THC has both stimulate and depressive effects and I wouldn't classify it as a pure stimulant. Vitamin C sounds interesting so I'll give it a try, any advice when and how much to take? I said the paranoia, anxiety and sweating are dependent on mindset because I know several smokers who overcame this by just learning to relax and letting go. It may be a lack of Vit C but sometimes people are just too stressed and not in the right mindset and this leads to bad expiriences. Truthman, I don't mean to come across as hostle or put anyone down. I like debates and have found your posts to be very informative. You are my cannabis brother and it's all in good fun here.