Cannabis and terroir

[mapinguari]

Wikipedia says terroir is:

"the set of special characteristics that the geography, geology and climate of a certain place, interacting with the plant's genetics, express in agricultural products such as wine, coffee, chocolate, tomatoes, heritage wheat, cannabis, and tea."

The inclusion of cannabis in this list seems to me a bit optimistic.

Outside of traditional cultivation, can we even speak of terroir for cannabis? In the US, most skilled growers use commercial soils or custom mixes that have little to do with the particular place where they're growing.

What kinds of differences have been observed that might be attributable to terroir?

How has cannabis prohibition encouraged trends that work against the development of something like the French AOC system? (Has it?)

Is there good potential for cannabis terroir in Humboldt, or does that place's association with herb have more to do, as some suggest, with the sparse population and wrinkly topography there?

Where might be the best places to develop terroir in cannabis, once it's possible to grow more openly?

In emerging legal cannabis markets, will terroir play a large role like it does for wine, or will place matter less (at least to marketing), like with beer?

 

[huarmiquilla]

howdy mapinguari

how you do?
respect

lovely thinks with respect to terroir
am tickle pink....hehehe
indeed lovely cannabis expression with respect to total environment
such to think similar seed latency....hehehe

one perspective
colombia cannabis indeed perhap acclimate and evolve within various region
such form to being santa marta gold, indeed such thinks antiquity with respect to much soil and environment destroy with respect to glyphosate....such terroir indeed vintage antiquity
similar form to being lowland red and black
highland
such and such

am keen to think indeed similar with respect to various geographic
such to think variance within terroir within thailand and similar much within asia
such to think variance within terroir within ethopia or malawi and simililar much within africa

indeed similar with respect to you geographic, indeed outdoor
indeed greenhouse

with respect to soil mix custom, at how to percieve native am keen to think indeed at which to thrive and survive within such native natural form

lovely topic indeed
respect
thank you to share you thinks

positive vibrations

 

[Sinkyone]

Terroir definitely comes into play with cannabis, especially for outdoor grows. Climate, elevation, geography, geology, aspect, slope, and solar orientation are critical and often over-looked factors to a good outdoor grow. Soil mix is only one of the many environmental factors that contribute to how the plant will grow. The same clone will not grow the same in Southern Humboldt as it does in say the Sierras. Observant outdoors growers figure out pretty quickly that certain strains will work better in specific micro-climates than others. Though it is not common there are people in the Emerald Triangle who have been growing and breeding cannabis for years, even decades, to thrive in their particular regions. Terrior plays a huge role in wine and agriculture in general and I am certain this will be true when cannabis becomes legal in California.

 

[mapinguari]

huarmiquilla and Sinkyone, thanks for your thoughts.

huarmiquilla, you mention Colombia and Thailand as places where "terroir" might be relevant. I'd agree; that's the type of scenario I imagined as "traditional," where landraces are cultivated over a long time.

If I got you right, the other situations you mention, such as greenhouse and outdoor growing, could also be said to "have terroir," presumably because they impact the results.

This is part of the point Sinkyone makes too, if I understand correctly. ("Climate, elevation, geography, geology, aspect, slope, and solar orientation are critical and often over-looked factors to a good outdoor grow.")

Of course good growers take all this into account, but I think the other part of your post was more to the point, Sinkyone--the part about growers in the ET working with particular strains in their microclimate for years.

My perception is that most growers don't give two shites about anything like terroir. Often people are timid to try using native soil; they don't have the time or inclination to spend years building soil; and they worry that their grow will suffer if they don't use recognized brands of bagged soil.

And most consumers don't have a clue where their herb came from or how it was produced, even what strain it is. This has changed a little bit with medical marijuana, but I still see very few dispensaries, even here in Cali, playing up notions of place in marketing their herb. I recall one in the Bay Area that tells you about each garden, offering details about its topography and geology and suggesting that these impact the herb produced therein. Outside of med states, it seems, it's mostly still the Dark Ages as far as these things go.

Contemporary "foodie" farms go for maximal transparency, allowing potential consumers to visit the production site and see for themselves how things work. Wineries work on the same principle, more or less. Obviously this is mostly impossible with cannabis at present. As more producers enter the market, this kind of differentiation will be necessary for smaller operations to be able to compete.

I'd like to know whether any growers reading this have experience with "terroir"--whatever you call it--like where different flavors / aspects of the high are brought out in the same strain in different soils, at different elevations, and so on. Specifics about strains and regions are greatly appreciated.

 

[Sinkyone]

My perception is that most growers don't give two shites about anything like terroir. Often people are timid to try using native soil; they don't have the time or inclination to spend years building soil; and they worry that their grow will suffer if they don't use recognized brands of bagged soil.

That is an accurate observation. Few growers plan for the long term, even fewer take the time to built their soil over years. Using new, brand named bagged soil every season is the norm for most people. Unfortunate since it is so wasteful and does not get one better results.

The differences between two strains grown in different conditions is often subtle, but they are there. I always notice a difference in flavor between the same cut grown in my garden, and ones grown in my neighbors garden which is about a mile away, higher elevation, and has totally different soil. I always see a big difference in yield between the two spots as well - my soil is much loamier and darker and always yields more per plants where next door is a heavy red clay soil which always yields less and tends to have more pest problems.

The nutrients can make a big difference too (which is part of environment). Seeing the same cut grown out organically by me vs being pumped full of Grow More (again watching my plants vs another neighbors in the area) the difference was like night and day. The Grow More grown grown cuts bad larger nugs but were much leafier, had less crystal, and the flavor was crap. When I saw how different the two gardens turned out running a lot of the same clones it really convinced me that yes organics does make a difference in the end product.

 

[mapinguari]

Sinkyone, thanks for giving some details about your observations of the effects of your and your neighbor's "terroir" on the same cuts.

Would you care to venture a description of the flavor and psychoactivity profiles in more detail?

Many growers are just learning that terpenes impact the effects of cannabis in complex ways, and it seems we are really at the trailhead of learning about how terroir impacts the terpene profile.

Some research suggests that the type of (native) soil impacts plant creation of terpenes in species-specific (and, I'd guess, strain-specific) ways.

For example:

"Production and diversity of volatile terpenes from plants on calcareous and siliceous soils: effect of soil nutrients.

Ormeño E, Baldy V, Ballini C, Fernandez C.

Source
Equipe Diversité Fonctionnelle des Communautés Végétales, Institut Méditerranéen d'Ecologie et Paléoécologie, Aix-Marseille Université, Campus de St Jérôme Case 421. Avenue Escadrille, Normandie Niémen, Marseille, France. [email protected]

Abstract

Fertilizer effects on terpene production have been noted in numerous reports. In contrast, only a few studies have studied the response of leaf terpene content to naturally different soil fertility levels. Terpene content, as determined by gas chromatography/mass spectrometry/flame ionization detector, and growth of Pinus halepensis, Rosmarinus officinalis, and Cistus albidus were studied on calcareous and siliceous soils under field conditions. The effect of nitrogen (N) and extractable phosphorus (P(E)) from these soils on terpenes was also investigated since calcareous soils mainly differ from siliceous soils in their higher nutrient loadings. Rich terpene mixtures were detected. Twenty-one terpenes appeared in leaf extracts of R. officinalis and C. albidus and 20 in P. halepensis. Growth of all species was enhanced on calcareous soils, while terpene content showed a species-specific response to soil type. The total monoterpene content of P. halepensis and that of some major compounds (e.g., delta-terpinene) were higher on calcareous than on siliceous soils. A significant and positive relationship was found between concentration of N and P(E) and leaf terpene content of this species. These findings suggest that P. halepensis may respond to an environment characterized by increasing soil deposition, by allocating carbon resources to the synthesis of terpene defense metabolites without growth reduction. Results obtained for R. officinalis showed high concentrations of numerous major monoterpenes (e.g., myrcene, camphor) in plants growing on calcareous soils, while alpha-pinene, beta-caryophyllene, and the total sesquiterpene content were higher on siliceous soils. Finally, only alloaromadendrene and delta-cadinene of C. albidus showed higher concentrations on siliceous soils. Unlike P. halepensis, soil nutrients were not involved in terpene variation in calcareous and siliceous soils of these two shrub species. Possible ecological explanations on the effect of soil type for these latter two species as well as the ecological explanation of rich terpene mixtures are discussed."

 

[mapinguari]

And, in a context in which most of us put most of our effort toward increased yields and "potency," here is an interesting observation from a Wikipedia article on vineyard soil types about "loam," which I was always told was the best kind of soil for most any sort of planting:

"Loam - Warm, soft, fertile soil composed of roughly equal amounts of silt, sand and clay. It is typically too fertile for high quality wines that need to limit yields in order to concentrate flavors."

Geez, does anyone know any pot grower who ever limited yields to concentrate flavors?

 

[Sinkyone]

Sinkyone, thanks for giving some details about your observations of the effects of your and your neighbor's "terroir" on the same cuts.

Would you care to venture a description of the flavor and psychoactivity profiles in more detail?

Well like Is aid the differences are often subtle, I think I probably notice it more than most because I am so familiar with certain strains. I would say that in general the cuts grown in the heavier clay soil tend to be not quite as flavorful, as if the terpene production was not as high. A little more on the harsh side as well - almost like you could taste more of the clay, if that makes any sense. Psychoactivity was more or less the same, it's usually the flavor and aroma I notice more difference. However I am not the best person to ask on that one, I smoke a lot and have a very high tolerance so I am not as good at picking out subtle nuances in the high as some people are. In general I've noticed a bigger difference with the chemical fertilizers vs organicly grown. The organic in my opinion is always much smoother, and the flavor of the strain is always more pronounced.

 

[xmobotx]

interesting

and 1 of the 1st things i thought could/would be a distinction from site to site is regionally specific clays

xperiments w/ lighting in an effort to more accurately match equatorial sunlight have been considered but more info would truly be helpful in that dept {lighting} noteworthy how we basically do this controlling photoperiod in relation to veg time but mostly; we just want to trigger a 'mature enough' plant and get a harvest

temperature is another factor <FTMP we grow @ or near as possible to 'optimum' but in nature and as we might consider temps as a regionall influence which may vary from 'optimum' even in the choicest regions

 

[huarmiquilla]

howdy mapinguari
howdy Sinkyone
howdy xmobotx

how you do?
respect

mapinguari one perspective am keen to think terroir similar form to being seed latency within cannabis

such to think at how genetic trait coax within form to being with respect to various variable
such and such barometric pressure, humidity, temperature
similar range and variance within
similar am keen to think indeed human equal variable with respect to total
indeed much variance within human perspective and preference
one perspective such to think love variable one perspective vibration variable

indoor am keen to think terroir form to being indeed
within recent topic am to read within icmag replica specimen garden within four various indoor garden
indeed much variance within am to read

such to think within region to earth human create form to being terra preta
similar terra preta remain within life with not human input
positive energy

with respect to psychoactive one perspective am keen to think to depend with perspective

perhap you enjoy to analysis research within Russo to GW
Taming THC: potential cannabis synergy and phytocannabinoid-terpenoid entourage effects
within such reference with respect to synergy within various terpene to various cannabinoid

respect

positive vibrations

 

[MValley52]

does anyone know any pot grower who ever limited yields to concentrate flavors?

hi People, Im doing my first outdoor grow this year in the Southern Hemisphere, 42°S, this thread is very interesting, I think the interaction between a said enviroment and a certain cannabis strain might produce bolder smells, tastes, and other interesting characteristics, unique to that special location, as in wine making...

location, genetics and growing techniques are the key...

does anyone know any pot grower who ever limited yields to concentrate flavors?

there is an article written by LUI (cannabiogen ex-breeder if im not wrong, available in spanish) called "Cultivo Extremo", one of the key factors for maximum concentration of oils in Indica type of plants is to apply hydric stress in certain moments, as well as low humidity levels, I followed that article and can surely tell the difference between that grow and others i had done, the yield x plant was 20/30% less, but psychoactivity was higher, just my 2 cents... peace, MV.-

 

[mapinguari]

interesting

and 1 of the 1st things i thought could/would be a distinction from site to site is regionally specific clays

xperiments w/ lighting in an effort to more accurately match equatorial sunlight have been considered but more info would truly be helpful in that dept {lighting} noteworthy how we basically do this controlling photoperiod in relation to veg time but mostly; we just want to trigger a 'mature enough' plant and get a harvest

temperature is another factor <FTMP we grow @ or near as possible to 'optimum' but in nature and as we might consider temps as a regionall influence which may vary from 'optimum' even in the choicest regions

Where I'm at, near Mt. Lassen, we have volcanic clays in our soil. My interest in the question of terroir is partly due to wanting to develop something worthwhile out of this soil and the genetics available to me.

I've been reading (and rejecting) articles that might contribute to this thread. Wine growers / connoisseurs have a lot to say about soil, temperature, and hydration with respect to grape quality. Usually particular varietals are identified that create something special in a given niche.

(This is what is almost completely lacking in contemporary herb production, so far as I can tell.)

Some of the research suggests that, for grapes at least, a moderate level of water stress at the end of the season produces better grapes for wine. This is an old tip in cannabis growing, but one that has been questioned lately in some forums here, with most experienced folk saying it's better to aim for a constant, optimum level of moisture.

Of course, I have yet to meet a grower who purposely reduced the size of a harvest in order to increase quality, unless you count trimming off popcorn.

Sinkyone mentioned the neighbor's clay soil rendering buds less flavorful.

What we might want to know is, Was that because the clay was improperly managed? What kinds of soil elements will allow a plant to optimize its resin constitution and production? Can clay be helpful if worked right?

Again, some of the wine studies have looked at this question, What produces the most intense flavors in the grapes, along with the right amount of sugars to produce the best wine possible?

Most of the articles I've been able to find that discuss cannabis and terpenes / terpenoids are aimed an inventorying them and maybe discussing how they impact psychoactivity. That's fine, but can we not learn more about how the flavor / cannabinoid profiles are impacted by terroir?

 

[SeaMaiden]

Wikipedia says terroir is:

"the set of special characteristics that the geography, geology and climate of a certain place, interacting with the plant's genetics, express in agricultural products such as wine, coffee, chocolate, tomatoes, heritage wheat, cannabis, and tea."

The inclusion of cannabis in this list seems to me a bit optimistic.

Outside of traditional cultivation, can we even speak of terroir for cannabis? In the US, most skilled growers use commercial soils or custom mixes that have little to do with the particular place where they're growing.

What kinds of differences have been observed that might be attributable to terroir?

How has cannabis prohibition encouraged trends that work against the development of something like the French AOC system? (Has it?)

Is there good potential for cannabis terroir in Humboldt, or does that place's association with herb have more to do, as some suggest, with the sparse population and wrinkly topography there?

Where might be the best places to develop terroir in cannabis, once it's possible to grow more openly?

In emerging legal cannabis markets, will terroir play a large role like it does for wine, or will place matter less (at least to marketing), like with beer?

I think that's a great question, though I'm not so sure that terroir can be expressed in something smoked as it can in something fermented. For example, do we experience terroir in beers, ales, lagers and the like? I don't know that I experience that, but then they're not marked like wine, like saying the hops were grown in Sloughhouse and the barley was grown up by Yreka. As another example; I can't tell the difference between a Haas avocado grown where it was developed vs grown on decomposed granite further south in California.

But let's say we can. If that's so, then I would say easily all the various areas where we grow wine, so we might also expect to experience differences in cannabis grown nearby. Santa Barbara, the central coast, the valley, the Sierra foothills--all rather different geology. That's a huge part of what makes this state so interesting to me personally, too.

Considering the question from those angles, I firmly don't know, but am leaning towards your conclusion that to suggest it's possible might be a little generous.

The association with the Green Triangle that I have is that they're remote, and that's what has made them good areas for cultivation.

 

[Crusader Rabbit]

What you describe as "terroir" can be applied to traditional North American cannabis strains where many Mexican and Central American cultivars were traded under the names of the regions in which they'd been developed. Look at the descriptions of cultivars traded by Ace and Cannobiogen who specialize in working with landraces. These varieties are identified by places of origin. But when the market demands the latest and greatest smackupthehead-kush under the umbrella of an international seed distribution system, then old time terroir is cast aside for immediate profits. McCannabis is in big demand so that is what we'll get.

 

[EclipseFour20]

Ah, terroir--a very popular debate in the wine circles; like why Cabernet grapes from a Napa vineyard will sell 3-5 times more than grapes grown 50 miles away. Is it the terroir? Is it the cultivator's practice? Is it weather related?

A study titled, Influence of Climate, Soil, and Cultivar on Terroir, concluded--

"The three main parameters of terroir—soil, cultivar, and
climate (through the vintage effect)—were studied simultaneously.
The highly significant effects of these three parameters
on vine development and berry constitution are
shown. The effect of climate was greatest on most parameters,
followed by soil and cultivar. Vine mineral uptake did
not appear to have a critical effect on fruit quality. Sunshine
hours and temperatures did not have a determining
impact on the quality of the vintage. The effects of climate
and soil on vine development and grape composition can
be explained in large part by their influence on vine water
status. Vintage influences vine water status through varying
amounts of summer rain, while soil influences vine water
status through its water-holding capacity and, possibly,
accessibility to the water table. The best vintages were
those in which the water balance from flowering to harvest
was most negative. The best soils were those on which water
deficits resulted in earlier shoot-growth slackening, reduced
berry size, and high grape sugar and anthocyanin
concentrations, thereby increasing grape quality potential."

Source: http://www.oliviertregoat.com/influence_of_climate_soil_cultivar.pdf

Yeah I know wine and cannabis are not the same...but if you are a wine connoisseur like me, then smoke a fatty while enjoying a glass of red wine--and now ponder how the two are similar...and dissimilar.

So, substituting the word "cannabis" for "fruit", the last sentence of the abstract would then read, "It is likely the effects of climate and soil on cannabis quality are mediated through their influence on...water status". I like cheap and imposing water deficits during strategic times during flowering cycle does not cost any money....and if it increases the quality...hmmmmm.

Besides withholding water prior to harvest (standard practice for many of us), what would happen to the flower quality if water stress was strategically imposed earlier, as well. Hmmmm.

Cheers!

 

[Hydro-Soil]

The inclusion of cannabis in this list seems to me a bit optimistic.

Yes... the environment around your cannabis can definitely affect flavor. Let's see what kind of a list of non-cannabis flavors I can come up with that I've experienced...

Crawlspace
Bounty Fabric Softener
Tide Fresh Scent
Insulation
Plastic Off-gassing smell
Rich organic dirt
Coco
Hot wood (attic grow)
Pine (not from the strain, from the trees it was grown next to)

Granted, I'm much more sensitive to smell/taste/touch than the next 999 people... so it's very likely that you, and most of the people around you, probably won't notice so much.

Stay Safe!

 

[xmobotx]

interesting mapinguari i can see where too much clay might have a tendency to make minerals unavailable*

* i would speculate that complexity of mineral content may well be a contributing factor to variations in terroir and that more complex mineral profiles lend the more complex flavors in a desirable location's sample

seamaiden while there has to be merit to a 'does it really make all that much diff smokin'" argument; i think we can all agree that we notice different tastes/levels of harshness and variations from inhale to exhale ~susceptible to the same 'nuanced' observations as wine

and yes eclipse I envision cliques forming of 'pot snobs' {nothing wrong w/ that} perhaps environments like smoker's clubs where groups of aficionados make similar observations and comparisons as wine tasters

however; i do feel that terroir as it pertains to the wine industry and variances are likely grower/vintner practice moreso than regional {when its dif's like 50 miles}

for our purposes {considering most of our canna is likely sourced from indoor gardens} hydro-soil you do make a humorous although profound point

 

[EclipseFour20]

Xmo--Wine affectionados are not wine snobs....wine wannabes are wine snobs and give good wine people a bad rap...lol!

That said, wines have aromas (derived from the grape), bouquet (derived from bottle age), and flavors (derived from god, the farmer, and from the winemaker). Rather similar to cannabis I would say.

On the subject of clay...I have been adding clay granules to my custom soil (about 6-8% volume) for its CEC and moisture holding properties; I am getting fabulous results.

Kitty litter is one source of clean clay, but that variety clumps easily and is expensive ($20 for 40 pounds). For a super affordable source go to Walmart automotive department and on lower shelf you will find 40 pound bags of Oil-Dri; it is 100% pure calcined clay sold as an "oil absorbent"...40 pound bag is just under $5.

Bark is another additive you guys should investigate for it's CEC, water holding and fungal/anti-fungal properties. Tiny sized pieces that are fully decomposed are the best!

 

[xmobotx]

lol ~ it tried to frame up "snob" in a way that is/was non-antagonistic/insultory but; i wanted that specific term for that thought

i want to give everyone the consideration they deserve and apologize if anyone doesnt prefer the term 'snob' ~it just does communicate the idea well

there was a lot of consideration for calcined DE/floor dri a while back and there is starting to be some feedback from real-life growing to the effect that it may not be as desirable ~idk whether those observations will apply to calcined clay or if maybe they are the same thing???

i recently experimented cloning w/ calcined DE {as napa 8822} and found that while it is a good media for rooting; the transplant shock sets the process back to be no more preferable {for me} to cloning in peat

enough of that though {skepticism} its still quite worthy of consideration how variations in regional {natural} clay deposits may affect terroir

pine bark has been shown in the lab to have some seemingly desirable qualities which would seem to indicate it may be a good choice as a component of a mix ~its tough for me {surrounded by pine forest} to envision it being practical but i havent tried it

could definitely consider a pine wooded region giving its own terroir ~my impression of pine forest in general? not good

 

[EclipseFour20]

Is that NAPA DE...sea water diatoms, or fresh water diatoms?