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Cannabis and terroir
- Thread starter mapinguari
- Start date
MValley52, thanks for the Cultivo Extremo reference and report from your experience with it. Given the naturally drier conditions in which broadleaf cannabis is found, perhaps simulating drought is useful in concentrating flavors / oils. It occurs to me that this might differ with narrowleaf tropicals adapted to more constant moisture.
In any case, I'd like to distinguish between environmental impacts and terroir. Many of us have had Hydro-Soil's experience of detecting chemical or other tastes / odors that creep into herb on occasion. And "Cultivo Extremo"'s author says it's mainly manipulations to be done indoors.
But terroir, if it's anything, has to do with the unique qualities of a particular place. I feel sure that this means, in its classic application, the traditional cultivation practices as well as the qualities of the soil. Clearly the term is used in a quasi-mystical way, in which its appeal is partly dependent upon the notion that one consumes not merely fermented grape juice from Bordeaux, but the whole culture and way of being associated with the place.
Yes, it's eventually a marketing tool. I think EclipseFour20 alludes to this without exactly saying it.
To the point that cannabis may benefit from imposed drought, I agree that may be, as noted above. But it's also worth pointing out that grape vines are perennials with quite deep roots (up to several meters, apparently), and may be better suited to this method than (most kinds of) cannabis. Also, many of the traditionally made wines come from un-irrigated vines, so the water deprivation is really a part of the local ecosystem, rather than imposed by a creative grower.
Crusader Rabbit, I hear you about the old-school, place-identified strains. In a better world, we'll be able to sample Oaxacan from Oaxaca, etc. with little problem. In the meantime, though, and being focused on my own situation, I am thinking about these genetics in our gardens, and what we can / should think and / or do about terroir.
When I said that including cannabis in terroir was optimistic, I didn't mean that I don't think such a thing can exist. It's that, given the market reality CR is pointing to, it doesn't *yet* exist, at least not in the form it could.
Most cannabis consumers have, by design, no idea where their herb was grown, or at least very little. They cannot, in 99.99% of cases, go visit the farm, see the processing, smell the dirt, gauge the Feng Shui...
Obviously this is part of the consequences of prohibition, and it's one of the areas that smaller producers will need to focus on as legal markets emerge, if they want to compete with mass producers.
SeaMaiden, I don't see why smoking disqualifies cannabis from terroir.
(And I didn't really get your comparison, where you seemed to contrast beer / ale with wine, even though both are fermented...? One big difference is, except in the case of "Estate Ales" like Sierra Nevada's, you have hops grown in Yakima, WA, malt from who knows where, brought together with European yeast in a facility in Chico, CA. Ingredients from all over, drawn together, tends to work against terroir, although on fine ales you often see geographic identifiers attached to the ingredients. Wine, at least ideally, is produced from a defined estate.)
Whether it can be called "terroir" or not, we have been working on our soil for about three years now, incorporating generous quantities of the local Cohasset series red-clay loam (derived from Lassen volcanic activity) with forest duff and humus derived from pine, oak, and manzanita litter.
My hope is that over time, we will find plants that respond well in this environment. In particular, I am working on Tom Hill's DC x Haze line to find varieties that fit well. (I may bring his X-18 into the mix this season as well.) We're at about 3500' and get almost no rain from May to October--a warm, dry combination that may or may not resemble the Kush Mountains.
Terroir in cannabis can exist, we just have to bring it into being. And that will be a lot easier when we can follow the example of farms that encourage consumer-direct sales and on-site visits, or the example of wineries that merge farm visits with atmospheric bells and whistles to enchant the aficionado with their "terroir."
In any case, I'd like to distinguish between environmental impacts and terroir. Many of us have had Hydro-Soil's experience of detecting chemical or other tastes / odors that creep into herb on occasion. And "Cultivo Extremo"'s author says it's mainly manipulations to be done indoors.
But terroir, if it's anything, has to do with the unique qualities of a particular place. I feel sure that this means, in its classic application, the traditional cultivation practices as well as the qualities of the soil. Clearly the term is used in a quasi-mystical way, in which its appeal is partly dependent upon the notion that one consumes not merely fermented grape juice from Bordeaux, but the whole culture and way of being associated with the place.
Yes, it's eventually a marketing tool. I think EclipseFour20 alludes to this without exactly saying it.
To the point that cannabis may benefit from imposed drought, I agree that may be, as noted above. But it's also worth pointing out that grape vines are perennials with quite deep roots (up to several meters, apparently), and may be better suited to this method than (most kinds of) cannabis. Also, many of the traditionally made wines come from un-irrigated vines, so the water deprivation is really a part of the local ecosystem, rather than imposed by a creative grower.
Crusader Rabbit, I hear you about the old-school, place-identified strains. In a better world, we'll be able to sample Oaxacan from Oaxaca, etc. with little problem. In the meantime, though, and being focused on my own situation, I am thinking about these genetics in our gardens, and what we can / should think and / or do about terroir.
When I said that including cannabis in terroir was optimistic, I didn't mean that I don't think such a thing can exist. It's that, given the market reality CR is pointing to, it doesn't *yet* exist, at least not in the form it could.
Most cannabis consumers have, by design, no idea where their herb was grown, or at least very little. They cannot, in 99.99% of cases, go visit the farm, see the processing, smell the dirt, gauge the Feng Shui...
Obviously this is part of the consequences of prohibition, and it's one of the areas that smaller producers will need to focus on as legal markets emerge, if they want to compete with mass producers.
SeaMaiden, I don't see why smoking disqualifies cannabis from terroir.
(And I didn't really get your comparison, where you seemed to contrast beer / ale with wine, even though both are fermented...? One big difference is, except in the case of "Estate Ales" like Sierra Nevada's, you have hops grown in Yakima, WA, malt from who knows where, brought together with European yeast in a facility in Chico, CA. Ingredients from all over, drawn together, tends to work against terroir, although on fine ales you often see geographic identifiers attached to the ingredients. Wine, at least ideally, is produced from a defined estate.)
Whether it can be called "terroir" or not, we have been working on our soil for about three years now, incorporating generous quantities of the local Cohasset series red-clay loam (derived from Lassen volcanic activity) with forest duff and humus derived from pine, oak, and manzanita litter.
My hope is that over time, we will find plants that respond well in this environment. In particular, I am working on Tom Hill's DC x Haze line to find varieties that fit well. (I may bring his X-18 into the mix this season as well.) We're at about 3500' and get almost no rain from May to October--a warm, dry combination that may or may not resemble the Kush Mountains.
Terroir in cannabis can exist, we just have to bring it into being. And that will be a lot easier when we can follow the example of farms that encourage consumer-direct sales and on-site visits, or the example of wineries that merge farm visits with atmospheric bells and whistles to enchant the aficionado with their "terroir."
Probably sea variety, most industrial DE is derived from salt water diatoms as they are cheaper and more plentiful than "fresh water" diatoms. To control dust and to prevent caking, industrial DEs will have chems and other stuff in the product.
As mentioned elsewhere, I use Perma-guard, a food grade consisting of 100% fresh water diatoms--no chems or additives. It is available at feedstores (sold as a feed additive to control intestinal parasites and what not). Since there are only a few places where foodgrade DE is mined...it is usually more expensive than the industrial variety (less than $40 for a 50 pound bag). BUT it is not calcined--rather a very fine powder, like flour (hence its name, Fossill Shell Flour).
A link to chemical analysis of Perma-guard: http://www.diatomitecanada.com/fsf_analysis.pdf.
On Edit: Yesterday I paid exactly $39.98 for 50 pound bag of Perma-Guard, which happen to be same price I paid last summer, and in the previous year!
cloudforestgwr
New member
Marijuana through the lens of wine
Marijuana through the lens of wine
As both a wine maker and cannabis grower, terrior being expressed in marijuana is something I have often thought about. I would agree with sinkyone that terrior in cannabis may be influenced by a number of factors other than the soil alone, i.e. sun exposure, slope, water used, temperature, humidity etc. While soil would be a bit harder to fit into the idea of terrior for a region, you could indeed do it for a specific farm, as many people mix in native soil and reuse the same beds etc year after year, surely contributing to a character unique to their farm.
There are many analogies to be drawn between grape/wine and marijuana/cured finished products. I sometimes find it useful to think about it in this way, not only with regards to terrior, aging/curing, etc but also marketing.
There are marijuana strains that have been developed in very specific regions of CA over the last 50 years (and other regions), that are very well adapted to those specific enclaves and express their true essence when grown there or in a similar environ. You could say the same about many old world grape varieties.
As grapes must be processed and aged to become wine, so must the marijuana plant be processed and cured to become "pot". Although it's rare, properly "aged/cured" marijuana is most definitely superior to wet trimmed, flash dried bud, just like a well aged wine is usually more complex than a new wine. You got your Franzia, and your Premier-Cru Bordeaux. You got your 1000 lbs of machine trimmed shwag, and your beautifully cured jar of buds that you grew in your biodynamic garden. You get what I mean, there are a thousand other analogies to draw here.
Imagine a day when you take a trip to Northern California Cannabis Country. Maybe you fly into San Francisco, and head north, where wine country blends into Pot-country. Maybe you head to the Sierra, where rumors of 18 ft plants and rare, hard-to-come-by strains entice you. Once out of the big cities, you see small wooden signs directing you to mom and pop cannabis-floweries, tucked back in the rolling hills. You head to one you read about in last months Marijuana-Spectator, that has supposedly been operating and developing their own flowers for 70 years, even during prohibition. You arrive at a small, rustic tasting room surrounded by beautiful gardens. It is the peak of harvest season, and a certain energy abounds in the wonderfully-scented air. First you taste last years redwood mist. The lid to the mason jar pops as the vacum is broken. You hold the jar to your nose, breathing in the different aromas, pine, mint maybe a hint of jasmine. You take out a glistening flower, you can see hues of purple and pink. Sparkling clean tester pipes (water-pipes if your prefer) are loaded for each new strain you taste. A sign on the wall reminds you that you do not have to inhale, and that if you should chose to do so a sober driver is recommended. After tasting the five different strains that have all been grown on this property for at least 50 years, most from seed, but some from clone, you chose to splurge on a one ounce jar of the '09 Trainwreck. This is the oldest marijuana you have ever tasted, at first you are worried it will crumble into a fine powder upon being touched but it does not. Although it appears much lighter, and less green in color than the younger flowers, it retains the proper amount of moister, and when smushed lightly with your fingers releases smells unlike any you have witnessed. Turning the beautiful jar in your hands, a label informs you that this particular bud was hand trimmed by the owner herself, then cured in a redwood humidor before being transfered to glass jars, where humidity, oxygen and carbon-dioxide levels were monitored and adjusted accordingly.
Next you head towards the Mendocino coast, then zigzag your way through Humboldt county. You visit a relatively new flowery, where some youngsters were doing some really innovative things with outdoor aquaculture. You cut through Alderpoint on your way to Trinity county, and sample some amazing, old, local strains. You head east towards gold country, where a second gold rush once came in the form of marijuana. You pass through a once mining town, now come tourist attraction, cross a majestic river and climb a steep winding canyon. You have heard this area abounds with wonderful flowers, and strains yet to be discovered. Now around 3500 ft, and in a massive pine forest, you arrive at your destination. As they offer logding and local cuisine, you stay at this flowery for the remainder of your trip. The climate is different here, the air is still hot and dry, and many of the gardens still have couple of weeks until they are harvested. The owner, an old, eccentric man takes you around all of his gardens, explaining almost to a fault every detail involved in growing his plants. You think to yourself that you have only seen this sort of passion coming from a vinter you once met while in France. After a few days relaxing in this beautiful country, you head back to the airport with more than a few treasures. Among them is an '15 Purple Sierra and your newly acquired '11 Goo. The Goo is a golden color, and each tiny blade in the loosely formed bud is encrusted with thousands of sparkling trichomes. The flowers reek of a sweet, sweet fruit. While reading the Label on your jar you learn that this clone-only strain no longer exists, as it was once the subject of fierce disregard, due to its local abundance and leafy structure. This particular jar was hand-trimmed by vegans (but not virgins) and cured in a mineshaft that had been converted into the perfect environment.
You work your way back to the Bay Area, large fields of industrial grade marijuana and hemp cover the central valley. In the airport you notice a small store, The Flower Shoppe, and decide to enter. Here the walls abound with hundreds of jars of high end cannabis flowers, mostly from the west coast of the US, but a select few from other regions of the country, and world. The employee is very knowledgeable about the growing and curing conditions found in the various regions and points you to some real treasures. He says he has built a relationship with most of the producers over the last 30 years, and you joke about the days when indoor marijuana reigned supreme. You leave with a small jar of curiously colored flowers from one of the Hawaiian islands, which you swear will be your next destination. You have heard that the cannabis found there is like no other in the world. On the plane you cannot wait until thanksgiving, when you will bring your uncle, and a select few other connoisseurs into your Marijuana-Cellar and let them sample the new additions to your growing collection.
Marijuana through the lens of wine
As both a wine maker and cannabis grower, terrior being expressed in marijuana is something I have often thought about. I would agree with sinkyone that terrior in cannabis may be influenced by a number of factors other than the soil alone, i.e. sun exposure, slope, water used, temperature, humidity etc. While soil would be a bit harder to fit into the idea of terrior for a region, you could indeed do it for a specific farm, as many people mix in native soil and reuse the same beds etc year after year, surely contributing to a character unique to their farm.
There are many analogies to be drawn between grape/wine and marijuana/cured finished products. I sometimes find it useful to think about it in this way, not only with regards to terrior, aging/curing, etc but also marketing.
There are marijuana strains that have been developed in very specific regions of CA over the last 50 years (and other regions), that are very well adapted to those specific enclaves and express their true essence when grown there or in a similar environ. You could say the same about many old world grape varieties.
As grapes must be processed and aged to become wine, so must the marijuana plant be processed and cured to become "pot". Although it's rare, properly "aged/cured" marijuana is most definitely superior to wet trimmed, flash dried bud, just like a well aged wine is usually more complex than a new wine. You got your Franzia, and your Premier-Cru Bordeaux. You got your 1000 lbs of machine trimmed shwag, and your beautifully cured jar of buds that you grew in your biodynamic garden. You get what I mean, there are a thousand other analogies to draw here.
Imagine a day when you take a trip to Northern California Cannabis Country. Maybe you fly into San Francisco, and head north, where wine country blends into Pot-country. Maybe you head to the Sierra, where rumors of 18 ft plants and rare, hard-to-come-by strains entice you. Once out of the big cities, you see small wooden signs directing you to mom and pop cannabis-floweries, tucked back in the rolling hills. You head to one you read about in last months Marijuana-Spectator, that has supposedly been operating and developing their own flowers for 70 years, even during prohibition. You arrive at a small, rustic tasting room surrounded by beautiful gardens. It is the peak of harvest season, and a certain energy abounds in the wonderfully-scented air. First you taste last years redwood mist. The lid to the mason jar pops as the vacum is broken. You hold the jar to your nose, breathing in the different aromas, pine, mint maybe a hint of jasmine. You take out a glistening flower, you can see hues of purple and pink. Sparkling clean tester pipes (water-pipes if your prefer) are loaded for each new strain you taste. A sign on the wall reminds you that you do not have to inhale, and that if you should chose to do so a sober driver is recommended. After tasting the five different strains that have all been grown on this property for at least 50 years, most from seed, but some from clone, you chose to splurge on a one ounce jar of the '09 Trainwreck. This is the oldest marijuana you have ever tasted, at first you are worried it will crumble into a fine powder upon being touched but it does not. Although it appears much lighter, and less green in color than the younger flowers, it retains the proper amount of moister, and when smushed lightly with your fingers releases smells unlike any you have witnessed. Turning the beautiful jar in your hands, a label informs you that this particular bud was hand trimmed by the owner herself, then cured in a redwood humidor before being transfered to glass jars, where humidity, oxygen and carbon-dioxide levels were monitored and adjusted accordingly.
Next you head towards the Mendocino coast, then zigzag your way through Humboldt county. You visit a relatively new flowery, where some youngsters were doing some really innovative things with outdoor aquaculture. You cut through Alderpoint on your way to Trinity county, and sample some amazing, old, local strains. You head east towards gold country, where a second gold rush once came in the form of marijuana. You pass through a once mining town, now come tourist attraction, cross a majestic river and climb a steep winding canyon. You have heard this area abounds with wonderful flowers, and strains yet to be discovered. Now around 3500 ft, and in a massive pine forest, you arrive at your destination. As they offer logding and local cuisine, you stay at this flowery for the remainder of your trip. The climate is different here, the air is still hot and dry, and many of the gardens still have couple of weeks until they are harvested. The owner, an old, eccentric man takes you around all of his gardens, explaining almost to a fault every detail involved in growing his plants. You think to yourself that you have only seen this sort of passion coming from a vinter you once met while in France. After a few days relaxing in this beautiful country, you head back to the airport with more than a few treasures. Among them is an '15 Purple Sierra and your newly acquired '11 Goo. The Goo is a golden color, and each tiny blade in the loosely formed bud is encrusted with thousands of sparkling trichomes. The flowers reek of a sweet, sweet fruit. While reading the Label on your jar you learn that this clone-only strain no longer exists, as it was once the subject of fierce disregard, due to its local abundance and leafy structure. This particular jar was hand-trimmed by vegans (but not virgins) and cured in a mineshaft that had been converted into the perfect environment.
You work your way back to the Bay Area, large fields of industrial grade marijuana and hemp cover the central valley. In the airport you notice a small store, The Flower Shoppe, and decide to enter. Here the walls abound with hundreds of jars of high end cannabis flowers, mostly from the west coast of the US, but a select few from other regions of the country, and world. The employee is very knowledgeable about the growing and curing conditions found in the various regions and points you to some real treasures. He says he has built a relationship with most of the producers over the last 30 years, and you joke about the days when indoor marijuana reigned supreme. You leave with a small jar of curiously colored flowers from one of the Hawaiian islands, which you swear will be your next destination. You have heard that the cannabis found there is like no other in the world. On the plane you cannot wait until thanksgiving, when you will bring your uncle, and a select few other connoisseurs into your Marijuana-Cellar and let them sample the new additions to your growing collection.
Exactly Cloud, like Napa was back in the 70s--when tastings were free and the person pouring the wine, or for that matter--even cutting the grass on his tractor, was also the owner of the winery. And, you asked politely, "do you have any library wine available?", then with a grin, he would bring out some bottled nectar you had only imagined in your wildest dreams. Then he would tell/brag of his special technique, how this and that was the best, blah blah blah...all from the mouth of the guy that made it.
Yep...wine industry and cannabis industry have too many parallels to ignore. Besides, why re-create the wheel when you can apply/steal successful solutions from another industry. Those guys already been there, done that...and moved on. You know: prohibition, underground distribution, legal distribution, back door distribution, oversupply, changing consumer demands, taxation, etc.
Take for example, cult wine. Here you have the top 2% wineries create a huge demand but with a limited supply--like Screaming Eagle. If you are on the "the list" you can buy up to your allocation, then there is a list to be on "the list", and a waiting list for the list to be on "the list" (which is now closed)...all without a middleman/distributor. You will not find Screaming Eagle at your local wine store the only way to get it...is be on the list, know someone at the winery, find it at one of the selected restaurants, or overpay for it on the secondary market (auction, members reselling, etc).
IMHO, it will not be long before there is a similar deal for cult cannabis growers where flowers in short supply are allocated directly to those on "the list"...all without a middleman or dispensary. And the guy behind the counter grins when you ask, "do you have any library flowers available?", and he brings out some nectar you have only imagined in your wildest dream.
Yep...wine industry and cannabis industry have too many parallels to ignore. Besides, why re-create the wheel when you can apply/steal successful solutions from another industry. Those guys already been there, done that...and moved on. You know: prohibition, underground distribution, legal distribution, back door distribution, oversupply, changing consumer demands, taxation, etc.
Take for example, cult wine. Here you have the top 2% wineries create a huge demand but with a limited supply--like Screaming Eagle. If you are on the "the list" you can buy up to your allocation, then there is a list to be on "the list", and a waiting list for the list to be on "the list" (which is now closed)...all without a middleman/distributor. You will not find Screaming Eagle at your local wine store the only way to get it...is be on the list, know someone at the winery, find it at one of the selected restaurants, or overpay for it on the secondary market (auction, members reselling, etc).
IMHO, it will not be long before there is a similar deal for cult cannabis growers where flowers in short supply are allocated directly to those on "the list"...all without a middleman or dispensary. And the guy behind the counter grins when you ask, "do you have any library flowers available?", and he brings out some nectar you have only imagined in your wildest dream.
I love the imagination of the possibilities you two are showing!
cloudforestgwr
New member
Eclipse,
Wouldn't it be very interesting to see a dispensary open that followed this cult wine , or at least good-wine model? A smaller place that worked with a handful of producers, and built lasting relationships with them. One that paraded the benefits (both environmental and gustatory) of organically, sun grown cannabis. Imagine the crowds lining up outside to purchase the '09 Cali-O from such and such farm, instead of the hordes forking over their dough for whatever the trendiest pot may be, regardless of knowing it's actual origin or lineage. It would be great to go into a place and get a very consistent product, where there was enough transparency that you would know what farm grew it, in what soil mix using what methods of fertilization, where it was grown, how it was trimmed and for how long it had been cured, the exact lineage of the strain etc.
One might even imagine a dichotomy being made where renowned growers sell their product to master-trimmer-curers who in turn produce a final product, as many vineyards sell their grapes to various wineries. Maybe some take a more cigar-like approach, where special blends of marijuana are mixed and cured together in marijuana-leaf cigars, and aged appropriately.
Anyhow, I think this is an important way to view the potential marijuana market when looking at legalization. Many smaller growers (and not so small growers) fear that legalization would put the money in the hands of the government and large corporations, but when looked at through the wine-model, it become apparent that other possibilities do exist. As marijuana becomes more mainstream (and legal) and less taboo, people will indeed pay a premium for a truly wonderful and unique product.
Wouldn't it be very interesting to see a dispensary open that followed this cult wine , or at least good-wine model? A smaller place that worked with a handful of producers, and built lasting relationships with them. One that paraded the benefits (both environmental and gustatory) of organically, sun grown cannabis. Imagine the crowds lining up outside to purchase the '09 Cali-O from such and such farm, instead of the hordes forking over their dough for whatever the trendiest pot may be, regardless of knowing it's actual origin or lineage. It would be great to go into a place and get a very consistent product, where there was enough transparency that you would know what farm grew it, in what soil mix using what methods of fertilization, where it was grown, how it was trimmed and for how long it had been cured, the exact lineage of the strain etc.
One might even imagine a dichotomy being made where renowned growers sell their product to master-trimmer-curers who in turn produce a final product, as many vineyards sell their grapes to various wineries. Maybe some take a more cigar-like approach, where special blends of marijuana are mixed and cured together in marijuana-leaf cigars, and aged appropriately.
Anyhow, I think this is an important way to view the potential marijuana market when looking at legalization. Many smaller growers (and not so small growers) fear that legalization would put the money in the hands of the government and large corporations, but when looked at through the wine-model, it become apparent that other possibilities do exist. As marijuana becomes more mainstream (and legal) and less taboo, people will indeed pay a premium for a truly wonderful and unique product.
And food and music--I remember the Mondavi Center in its infancy; jazz concerts, fat food, great times--or even how Justin did their annual members BBQ. You come, enjoy and pickup your wineclub selection, meet and trade lies with friends, and cruise around the property.
And then you have the 2nd tier winery wannabes, those that buy excess grapes and/or grape extracts and make rather decent "homemade wine". Now, if we can only translate this idea so there would be a market for "unmanicured buds"...lol! I know, I know, wishful thinking!
Until we bask in cannabis nirvana--where all this really happens, we shall continue to play similar cards the wineries played when they had prohibition: they made and sold their wares stealthily. The only difference was...back then the most influential wineries still produced wine "legally"--it was "sacrament wine". But the minute the 18th amendment was repealed, all those "holy" bottles were relabeled and sold to a thirsty public at a great profit!
Ahh, the stories the old-timers would tell.
And then you have the 2nd tier winery wannabes, those that buy excess grapes and/or grape extracts and make rather decent "homemade wine". Now, if we can only translate this idea so there would be a market for "unmanicured buds"...lol! I know, I know, wishful thinking!
Until we bask in cannabis nirvana--where all this really happens, we shall continue to play similar cards the wineries played when they had prohibition: they made and sold their wares stealthily. The only difference was...back then the most influential wineries still produced wine "legally"--it was "sacrament wine". But the minute the 18th amendment was repealed, all those "holy" bottles were relabeled and sold to a thirsty public at a great profit!
Ahh, the stories the old-timers would tell.
S
SeaMaiden
Oh, I agree with that. I'm just not so sure that I/we can experience quite the same range of subtleties in cannabis that we do wine, and since discovering Pinot Gris, that experience has expanded a great deal for me personally. I would, however, like to think that terroir and growing methods make a huge difference, because if true that would make what I grow a truly 'boutique' product.
Terroir with regard to tobacco--something I haven't a clue about. Does it exist? Are there any cigar aficionados here?
My thinking was perhaps because combustion may cause changes that might cloud or cover up what nuances could be found in 'terroir.' Mostly I'm curious, not saying it's disqualified, but curious as to other corollaries.
Thank you, you clearly understand and appreciate the variables at play that I'm considering with this question. Fermentation doesn't occur with cannabis, curing does. So I thought, what about other fermented products where we *might* be able to distinguish a terroir. Since all 50 states are no longer growing regional grains as was happening 100+ years ago, we folks here in our modern times cannot have that experience unless we find a brewer who does things truly the old way. Since I'm not a beer drinker, I can't speak to it, but I am curious.
However, back to wine, just because the bottle is marked with an area does not mean all the grapes came from that location. Many vintners buy grapes from outside farmers, yes? Out here we have lots of people with an acre or two of grapes that they grow mostly to sell to vintners, for example. So... terroir..? Can we distinguish it in a wine made from a blend of product not all from the same area? Especially here in California with our incredible geology that ranges from flood basins to volcanic flows to uplifted islands and beaches to... fill in the blank because I think this state darn near has it all.
I agree, and considering wine & beer/ale, think about this--cannabis can not be "adulterated" the way wine & beer can be, because you can't mix the buds. Unless we end up with pre-rolls, then they'd be mixed. But I would also expect those to taste a lot like pre-rolled tobacco (i.e. harsh, single-note flavor).
The fruit flavored Lambic beers brewed in Belgium are still processed using the old ways. The wort is poured out into large basins housed in the attics of old buildings of which the gables are covered with canvas which is then rolled up to allow the summer breeze to blow through across the wort vats. This inoculates the wort with local naturally found yeasts unique to this region. This method has been tried in other areas but the yeasts are different and things go sour.
Sea--If you taste "free run" wine (non fermented grape juice) right from the extractor--it will eliminate many variables (like fermentation, bottle aging, blending, etc). Now...imagine an afternoon at a winery and sampling wine that was both "free run" and appropriately aged--now imagine comparing wines from a winery with different vineyards and with different microclimates. I was blessed to spend an afternoon with the late Dr. Al Brounstein doing just that at his winery---
Each vineyard has a different soil and microclimate--with each having its own noticeable characteristic.
After years of learning, tasting and improving one's sensory abilities, it is possible to differentiate wines from different regions (Napa vs Santa Lucia Highlands vs Russian River)...or wines of the same vineyard (Volcanic Hill vs Lake Vineyard...the best IMHO)...all from the same cabernet grape, some from the same clone/root stalk.
Cannabis users do that all the time with weed, right? Oh, it is just newbies that can't--why is that? Hmmm, words of Jimi Hendrix come to mind..."are you experienced?...well, I am".
Cheers!
Each vineyard has a different soil and microclimate--with each having its own noticeable characteristic.
After years of learning, tasting and improving one's sensory abilities, it is possible to differentiate wines from different regions (Napa vs Santa Lucia Highlands vs Russian River)...or wines of the same vineyard (Volcanic Hill vs Lake Vineyard...the best IMHO)...all from the same cabernet grape, some from the same clone/root stalk.
Cannabis users do that all the time with weed, right? Oh, it is just newbies that can't--why is that? Hmmm, words of Jimi Hendrix come to mind..."are you experienced?...well, I am".
Cheers!
Sea...btw, wine labeling is quite controlled, preventing incidents such as you suggested, grapes from one region being sold as from a different region.
ATF regulates wine labels and have outlawed perfectly good wines bottles--all because the label had picture or words from a poem ATF deemed to be "offensive". ATF...now that is funny combination of areas of responsibility...alcohol, firearms and tobacco--guess when cannabis is legal, we will probably be added and the agency re-initialed as ATFM....or maybe just rename it DSS for "Drink, Smoke and Shoot).
Good one page "wine label" legal tutor: http://www.sonomawineco.com/forms/Cheat_Sheet.pdf
Now...imagine that "cheat sheet" with cannabis variables--instead of wine.
ATF regulates wine labels and have outlawed perfectly good wines bottles--all because the label had picture or words from a poem ATF deemed to be "offensive". ATF...now that is funny combination of areas of responsibility...alcohol, firearms and tobacco--guess when cannabis is legal, we will probably be added and the agency re-initialed as ATFM....or maybe just rename it DSS for "Drink, Smoke and Shoot).
Good one page "wine label" legal tutor: http://www.sonomawineco.com/forms/Cheat_Sheet.pdf
Now...imagine that "cheat sheet" with cannabis variables--instead of wine.
Oh... wow... I can't believe I left out a CLASSIC example.
(gack)
There's a dispensary someplace just outside burbank, ca in a surrounding town/city/whatever. I'm geographically challenged so I really have no idea. LOL Maybe it's not there anymore, I don't know.
Small house, next to an alley? Apparently they grow in the backyard area that's fenced off with chain-link and privacy strips. You could obviously see they were growing though. Was probably 4 years ago or more now...
Anyone ever have Trainwreck that tasted like car exhaust? Yep... LOTS of traffic through that alley, all day.
Just... wow.
Stay Safe!
(gack)
There's a dispensary someplace just outside burbank, ca in a surrounding town/city/whatever. I'm geographically challenged so I really have no idea. LOL Maybe it's not there anymore, I don't know.
Small house, next to an alley? Apparently they grow in the backyard area that's fenced off with chain-link and privacy strips. You could obviously see they were growing though. Was probably 4 years ago or more now...
Anyone ever have Trainwreck that tasted like car exhaust? Yep... LOTS of traffic through that alley, all day.
Just... wow.
Stay Safe!
I'm drooling. Really.
Coming from someone who's extremely sensitive to taste, touch, smell... the thought gives me shivers. lol
THAT Would be a vacation for me. Thank you, I'll have to keep that in mind.
Stay Safe!
you are kidding right?
the whole 'cuban cigar' concept is one of terroir {remember the embargo?} when the cigar farms of cuba were nationalized; many of the producers fled the country and began seeking out suitable regions {w/ suitable terroir} to ply their trade in freedom
certain regions of the newer farms have been identified as lending desirable characteristics much like the cuban homeland {cigars from the numerous other south american and insular countries in through there have come to surpass the sought after cuban cigars ~but the reputation still cannot be beat}
an irony to it all is that cuba continues to this day to produce cigars in the traditional 'night soil' fashion
I've come to the realization that I grow in a way that pretty much eliminates terroir.
Filtered air, GH nutes, GH bloom booster, Silica and pH up. A super long fade makes for flavored/scented air on your inhale. The plant matter almost doesn't matter at all... it's very similar to smoking hash.
I'm a HUGE fan of cannabis and all of it's flavors. LOL
Next year I venture into finding out what the terroir of mountain colorado will taste like. (first outdoor grow... Ever!)
Stay Safe!
Filtered air, GH nutes, GH bloom booster, Silica and pH up. A super long fade makes for flavored/scented air on your inhale. The plant matter almost doesn't matter at all... it's very similar to smoking hash.
I'm a HUGE fan of cannabis and all of it's flavors. LOL
Next year I venture into finding out what the terroir of mountain colorado will taste like. (first outdoor grow... Ever!)
Stay Safe!
hi Everybody, Im an outdoor grower, I have a question for the more experienced growers out there.... do you think different soil mixes would have impact on taste & smell? I mean different levels of soil acidity, water retention, and so on... Any feedback on that subject will be appreciated...
