Can 9kbtu minisplit cool a 2k non-sealed grow room?

[tact1]

Check this out:

hXXps://www.acwholesalers.com/hvac/pdf/mitsubishi/mitsubishi-singlezone/MSZ-FH09NA-MUZ-FH09NA-sp.pdf

Uhh while the "rated" btus are 9000 for cooling, it shows a range to 12k?

Cooling*1
Rated Capacity.. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .9,000 Btu/h
Capacity Range. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .1,700 - 12,000 Btu/h
Rated Total Input ..... . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 560 W
Maximum Total Input . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1,000 W
SEER .. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 30.5 Btu/h/W

Soooooo, can this put out 12k btu or, wtf confusing?

 

[queequeg152]

Very interesting.
1hp=0.746kW=2544Btu/hr
1kW lighting=3413Btu/hr
manual J, really?? Isn't that above the scope of 99% of readers here?
I am a newbie to this site, so forgive me if I'm underestimating user knowledge of heat transfer.

perhaps... but when you consider how much money some folks on here invest in hvac equipment a manual j is warrented IMO.

they are trivial to to. not difficult what so ever, just time consuming... with the bulk of the time being spent in the surveying of existing conditions, insulation r values, foundation types, wall heights, window heights, orientation of walls to the sun.... soffit over hang depths, all that shit takes time to measure.

the actual spread sheet only takes like an hour to do.

learning how to do a manual j only took me like... 9 hours of honest to goodness study with the manual J book i bought.

perhaps the manual J is hard figure out without shelling out for the book, but with it its trivial imo.

if you are lucky and you can get the drawings for your home you can cut out alot of the time spent measuring room sizes window areas and roof pitches... ceiling areas etc. if not you are spending a considerable amount of time with the paper tape and measuring tape.

 

[queequeg152]

Queequeg,

thanks for the extra time with your thoughts, I appreciate it. I am going to call up to acwholesaler (same as goductless), and ask if I get a another unit cross-shipped while I return this one will they waive, or partially waive the restocking fee.

Really though, even if its a $1000, I should get a 22k btu inverter in that bitch, the hard part is an hvac guy IS installing it, and I don't want him back in my room. The whole room has been shutdown for 3 weeks now while this 9k btu got here, while I waited I scrubbed the room, hid all my shit, have a tent in my bedroom that annoys the absolute shit out of me of GG4 and GSC, and im just DIEING to get my room back together. So I really need to take a step back and ask if 1-2 more weeks will affect me (no), but could it drastically affect the future of my grow room environmental controls (yes). Reading abotu people with 12k btus (granted in sealed rooms), but with 95f temps outside (though im in midwest the 4 month summer is brutal and humid), co2 burner, 2k lights, dehum, and he maintains 81+f which is fine if you are feeding co2, which I am not as my room is not sealed, nor insulated, nor have a burner.

One last note on my hesitation to seal, we have a new kid about to turn one and this is a hard sell to my wife, the co2 burner thing.

The krux of all of this was a failrue on my part to understand that these ACs do not plug into walloutlets (except maybe that breeze DIY?). And I tried to ride the edge witht he 9k thinking I wouldn't need an electrician that way, in truth I never needed one as I have an open 30 fuse on my breaker box, and that can take well into the 20k+ btus, and has zero footprint on my room itself.

As for the lineset its JMF SL line set with flare fitting connections, and fortress drain hose with a condenser pump to be used with the mini split as well. So I am totally counting on mr hvac guy to do all that shit right, he is a legit guy with a legit company doing it all cash on the side in a future weekend or evening most likely.

Average temp highs in August for where I live (STL) is 89 with average lows being 69, and in September those numbers drop to 77 high and 67 lows or something. The RH is an absolute bitch with all the rivers and perhaps that contributes to the relatively warm "lows", compared to daytime highs. There was over 10 days in July where it was over 100 (feel likes), and a few where I shit you not it was 'feels like' 112 @ midnight. It was like a sauna, truly disgusting. Enough to make you question why you live here, some Jamestown shit.

well if you can swing the 1 grand... ( thats a SHITLOAD of money to me) then go for it. especially if it means you will get a better quality VRF type minisplit from a good manufacturer from japan korea or what ever.


regarding my mention of air sealing... im referring to the act of ferreting out the air that leaks into or out of your conditioned space.
these air leaks often account for most of the heat gain in poorly constructed homes here in the south.

being able to use co2 and what ever else is just a byproduct of that air sealing i suppose.

regarding running a new circuit, this is trivial to do if you want to save some money here... i dont reccomend you fuck with your panel if you are not comfortable, but you can run branch circuit wire yourself, but look up your area codes, securing the cable every 4' minimum if i recall correctly.

when you run this wire... all your electrician has to do is at the panel and at your room. will save you like an hour of his billable time.

 

[tact1]

I am RMAing the 9k btu back, will be $180 shipped by' small parcel' UPS, the AC was light enough at 83 lbs for one package to still qualify and not have to be shipped freight, UPS will pick it all up at my house. I negotiated with the acwholesaler to waive the 15% restocking fee since I ordered another unit that day (prior to even calling about waiving the restocking fee). I ordered the 17,200 btu mr slim, it should ship by friday/monday. The 9,000 btu was $1860 shipped, the 17,200 btu is $2100 shipped. So the difference with the shipping is like $300, doable, compared to $1000. So this will extend things, but you guys probably saved a lot of regret and heartache if I was unsatisfied and did not get the low 70s I crave from the 9k.

I will update.

 

[queequeg152]

well, sounds like you got a decent deal there, regarding the return at least.

in the future, you might speak with your chosen hvac tech about a load calculation. even a rudimentary one will save you alot of this anxiety regarding sizing the units.

a super professional level manual J for an entire house costs like 500-1000 bucks.... a shitty one using google earth and many guesses and assumption costs like 300 bucks max.

for a single room? an hvac tech might do it for free assuming you are going to hire him to do the work for you.

 

[queequeg152]

Check this out:

hXXps://www.acwholesalers.com/hvac/pdf/mitsubishi/mitsubishi-singlezone/MSZ-FH09NA-MUZ-FH09NA-sp.pdf

Uhh while the "rated" btus are 9000 for cooling, it shows a range to 12k?

Cooling*1
Rated Capacity.. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .9,000 Btu/h
Capacity Range. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .1,700 - 12,000 Btu/h
Rated Total Input ..... . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 560 W
Maximum Total Input . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1,000 W
SEER .. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 30.5 Btu/h/W

Soooooo, can this put out 12k btu or, wtf confusing?

oh... i missed this post.

that could mean many things.... an ac SYSTEM capacity changes quite alot based on a number of things...

length of line set, lineset diameter, out door and indoor wet and drybulb temps... various sizes of evaporator coils, various sizes and horse powers for the condensor fan motors....

in all likelyhood that high number represents the absolute best conditions, wherein that particular unit is operating in peak efficiency.

its probably mostly to due with humidity though.

the 9kbtuh is probably with a good chunk of humidity, and the high end is for less... but who knows.

you would need to find the designer specifications for the condensing unit. it should have tables of values for the condensing units and their respective pairing with various air handlers.

 

[queequeg152]

on the other hand... its a VRF system, so perhaps it has some sort of overdrive function? i really dont know. would need to see more documents.

 

[tact1]

on the other hand... its a VRF system, so perhaps it has some sort of overdrive function? i really dont know. would need to see more documents.

they have exactly that, an overdrive something something, this is the one I ordered, and it has similar speed options:

hXXp://www.mitsubishipro.com/media/456672/msz-ge18na-8~muz-ge18na-1%20submittal.pdf

 

[tact1]

I was scoping out the 24k btu mr slim, its only $20 more... lol, and the air handler is way bigger @ 43 inches compared to the 31 inch 17,200 btu indoor air handler. Do you think a 2k room would need to kick up over 17,200 btus to warrant that shift up to 24k btu? I know the inverter tech makes that much more feasible because it ramps up and down as needed, but that air handler would be more intrusive @ 43 inches. Though both are the same depth. The room is quite small @ only 8'x6' with lower basement ceilings. I suppose I should come up with a gram to watt goal or something to maximize this space.

Quick note: The 17,200 btu has NOT shipped, and is NOT in stock until 'the end of the week', IE. wont ship till next week earliest. One of the 17,200 btu systems is $400 cheaper than the other almost identical system, the difference is one has a heat pump function as well as cooling and one is only a cooler, I am getting the one that is both a cooler and a heater, figured it may help during lights off in winter, I throw a space heater on the ground then anyway. Not sure on the 24k in stock status, their website is so full of it in regards to what is in stock and how fast it ships. I can't complain though.


Cooling*
Rated Capacity . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 17,200 Btu/h
Minimum Capacity . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3,700 Btu/h
SEER . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .19.2 Btu/h/W
Total Input . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1,640 W

vs

Cooling*
Rated Capacity.................................................................22,500 Btu/h
Maximum Capacity..............................................................22,500 Btu/h
SEER................................................................................18.0 Btu/h/W
Total Input...........................................................1,800 (570- 3,580) W

For some reason it does not indicate the min for the 24k (rated @ 22.5k for cooling...), but obviously it is inverter tech and the variable input low of 570 shows that.

 

[queequeg152]

its up to you really. if you have any plans to expand what ever activities are going on in there at a future date... the larger system might be warrented.

were only talking about 5kbtuh here. around a quarter of a ton, its not a huge deal.

5kbtuh is equivalent to like 2 big athletic dudes working out.

 

[tact1]

its up to you really. if you have any plans to expand what ever activities are going on in there at a future date... the larger system might be warrented.

were only talking about 5kbtuh here. around a quarter of a ton, its not a huge deal.

5kbtuh is equivalent to like 2 big athletic dudes working out.

lmao

I don't even have room to add another magnum xxl 1000w in the space, I would have to either go barebulb or get much smaller bulb housing like cooltubes or something I gather. The rooms electrical limitations are the work performed in the attached image. So I don't think I can even have more than two 1ks in the space and be over the 80% unless I am understanding it wrong. It was done for my first grow 7 years or so, I grew one load and had to stop until this last year, so it has been a minute.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwXvuunYt2lnZlNEbU56OE1HY1U/view?usp=sharing

Edit: Actually, if each one is dedicated, but share a fuse with a piece of tape (??) at the circuit breaker box, is each circuit (a 20amp dedicated it says) capable of running 1600w for each of the two quad-outlets in the room. So like, Maybe I could add at most, a couple supplmental lights, unless I reworked the whole setup and ran like a 1k + 600w per outlet, so x2 that. 2k + (2)600w. That, if even possible with the fans, and scrubbers running in the same outlets, etc. A dehumidifier in the future potentially right, having to be plugged in the room unless I ran a cord in there during lights ON from elsewhere in the basement, but not during lights off without some wonky light leak bullshit probably.

Even under this theoretical say expansion to 2600w, or even 3200w:

3.2 x 6000BTU = 19,200, say some other bullshit with heatgain, ballasts in room, scrubbers, fans, inefficiency, etc etc, the 24k btu would give that 22.5k cooling output, while the 17,2k stays true @ 17.2k output. Potentially undersizing me in that scenario, but I imagine I would NEED a dehumid reserved to go on one of the dedicated 20 amp circuits along with one of the 1ks. The room is jam packed and little room to walk, so it would be a 600k off to the side, though if I did not have to run air cooled I could maybe get a little triangle thing going, but I dont think the mags size and my space of 8' long, 6' wide, with them running length wise, the first mags duct butts up against the back wall, while the 2nd mags duct butts up against the door to the room. So any other lights would have to be strategically placed on the sides, possibly crowding the air handler on the left, so both may have to go on the right, or go bare bulbs, though I have low ceilings (drywaller basement in a 100 year old house.

Hope this is making sense??

Stoned as fuck.

 

[the gnome]

""will 9000btu AC cool 2000w"" resin rider is the only one with the *correct* answer...NO
will 18,000btu cool 2000w of lamp.......???
and no one say that's way to much

for every 1000w non-cooled lamps you need 5000btu of AC

this is easy
your trying to cool 2000w of a bare bulb grow
get a 12,000btu Breeze unit from friedrich,
it'll cool the 2000w with ease and handle the equipment in the room with ease
and you'll have a bit of overhead for peace of mind
it's a quality unit like a mitsu,
and has inverter technology
it plugs into a 110-120v outlet.
it comes fully charged with the self connects so you can ditch the
HVAC and keep the money he would have cost and ya get more peace of mind.
and speaking of cost it's only $1599 shipped to your door
insulate your gro nice-n-tite and run the room sealed w/Co2
get a friedrich dehuey for the nite Co2/RH dump/splike

you will be all smiles come harvest day

 

[tact1]

""will 9000btu AC cool 2000w"" resin rider is the only one with the *correct* answer...NO
will 18,000btu cool 2000w of lamp.......???
and no one say that's way to much

for every 1000w non-cooled lamps you need 5000btu of AC

this is easy
your trying to cool 2000w of a bare bulb grow
get a 12,000btu Breeze unit from friedrich,
it'll cool the 2000w with ease and handle the equipment in the room with ease
and you'll have a bit of overhead for peace of mind
it's a quality unit like a mitsu,
and has inverter technology
it plugs into a 110-120v outlet.
it comes fully charged with the self connects so you can ditch the
HVAC and keep the money he would have cost and ya get more peace of mind.
and speaking of cost it's only $1599 shipped to your door
insulate your gro nice-n-tite and run the room sealed w/Co2
get a friedrich dehuey for the nite Co2/RH dump/splike

you will be all smiles come harvest day

Here is a choice:

https://www.acwholesalers.com/Mitsubishi-Air-Conditioners/MZ-GE12NA-12000-BTU-20-5-SEER-Ductless-Mini-Split-System/19596.ac?catId=cat1028&mainCat =&subCat=&trail=1004:Mitsubish i:68436:10,001%20-%2012,000

It has the heat-pump function, and would be $500 less than the 17.2k btu, which would cover the install. Again I don't have the energy in the room to install a breeze and plug it in the rooms outlets.

Thoughts?

So you feel I should go down to the 12k, if you had to pick a mrslim gnome, yeah? The room is never going to get any more lights, we will move before then. Really they both throttle up almost identically, actually the 17.2k throttle starts at 100 btu less than the 12k, and the drain amount of dehum is 4.6 max to the smaller 12ks 2.6, if I suppose both run @ full.

http://www.mitsubishielectric.ca/en/hvac/PDF/m-series/Cooling-Heating_SingleIndoorUnit_Spec02.pdf

 

[queequeg152]

for every 1000w non-cooled lamps you need 5000btu of AC

no you dont.
it might be a rule of thumb that works most of the time, but you dont need 5kbtuh to cool 1kw of lighting.

1kw of lighting is 3.4 ish kbtuh.

throw a watt meter on one of these light fixtures. unless the thing catches on fire, its impossible for it to emit more than 3.4kbtuh.

the additional heat gain is from the outdoors and should at least be calculated in a rudimentary manner. imo at least.

 

[queequeg152]

lmao

I don't even have room to add another magnum xxl 1000w in the space, I would have to either go barebulb or get much smaller bulb housing like cooltubes or something I gather. The rooms electrical limitations are the work performed in the attached image. So I don't think I can even have more than two 1ks in the space and be over the 80% unless I am understanding it wrong. It was done for my first grow 7 years or so, I grew one load and had to stop until this last year, so it has been a minute.

you SHOULD be able to safely put two bulbs on one 20a circuit. especially if you have this cable in a somewhat cool area, and the lenghts are not terribly long.

yes you violate 16 amps, but only marginally.... would be a good idea to IR gun the breaker and outlets and head off any heat generated by loose connections or corrosion.

if you have cables 25+ feet long or in a hot place its not a great idea.

 

[moses wellfleet]

Do it properly... Seal it up!!!

 

[tact1]

This guy seals up his shit ala spray foam like quee mentioned:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=swSRQy6-rcc

I would need to put up studs and shit... I don't know fuck about that stuff. Would lose almost a foot around the room perimeter if I studded up the two outside walls and the closet wall.

 

[tact1]

Well cancelled the 17,200k btu, ordered the cooling only 12,000k btu. Price for this one is $1100, price for the 17.2k is $2100. I have a space heater I use when I need a heater anyway in the winter, the same model with heat pump was $1500 but I will be moving within 3 years, so fuck it I said. Will use the difference of $1000 to spend on installation and start looking at sealing youtube vids.

https://www.acwholesalers.com/Mitsubishi-Air-Conditioners/MY-GE12NA-12000-BTU-20-5-SEER-Ductless-Mini-Split-System/19638.ac?catId=cat1028&mainCat=&subCat=&trail=1004:Mitsubishi:68443:1%20Ton#

 

[queequeg152]

hahaha wow, you see that guys porn stash? jesus.

 

[the gnome]

for every 1000w non-cooled lamps you need 5000btu of AC

no you dont.
it might be a rule of thumb that works most of the time, but you dont need 5kbtuh to cool 1kw of lighting.

1kw of lighting is 3.4 ish kbtuh.

throw a watt meter on one of these light fixtures. unless the thing catches on fire, its impossible for it to emit more than 3.4kbtuh.

the additional heat gain is from the outdoors and should at least be calculated in a rudimentary manner. imo at least.

I should have known there would be *1 person* would take issue with saying *you need*
I should have said it will do the job, my bad.
but yeah, it's the *rule of thumb* here Ive seen used on the boards and it works quite well.
Ive yet to see in the close to 5yrs here anyone using those figures for their AC and coming back saying
they can't cool the gro properly using
on the other hand I've seen people straying from the 5000btu
going under it and saying they have heat issues

the flip side of that is for air cooled hoods 3000btu per 1000w
will do the job
if you figure is for using air cooled lamps then were good.
there's a water chiller company called opticlimate making large units use to cool grows instead of AC's
and they call for 5,200btu per 1KW non-cooled bulbs cooling power for running a gro free of heat issues
so evidently our/IC's in house calculations are pretty reliable.
of course many things can affect the the 5Kbtu-1000w figure or any figure for that matter

how about your grow,
what's the specs on your AC-btu--wattage?
what are you using to keep things proper with your
3.4-ish kbtu per 1000w