calcium lockout? nute burn? please help!

[Shliite]

-4 days into 12/12.
-ran humboldt's "BushMaster" for the first 3 days at 3mL/Gallon
-for those of you unframiliar with bushmaster it often causes the "ram's horn effect" which is the leaf tips pointing downward..
-At rez change I added PBP Bloom, GreenFuse bloom stimulant, MaxiCrop kelp, and hydroguard

I looked through the infirmary guide and saw a few potential problems... calcium deficiency being the most prominent. I use the 3 drop pH tester kit and tested after I added the maxicrop kelp (which discolors the water a reddish hue) and may have adjusted the pH to be highly alkaline by mistake. This however doesnt explain the calcium defficiency because it says on the guide that calcium gets locked out at extremely low pH levels (2.0 - 5.3).

Sorry the pictures are bad, but there is a brownish - almost copper discoloration on the outside of some of the highest fan leaves. The growth shoots (which have already begun flowering) look light green in color and feel very brittle and dry almost as if they were underwatered. I also noticed there is some brownish discoloration on the top 1/3 of the root ball, which may or may not be from the kelp or silica I have added. Should i try to rinse this off or is this normal?

Could this be nute burn from the bushmaster? (i applied a considerably small dose for only 3 days)
Is this normal for bushmaster?
Would a foliar epsom salt help here?

please help! im going to change the rez again to make sure pH is around 5.8 (but its never exact with these little drip test things - dont worry i have a Checker1 pH pen on the way)

thanks,
Shlite

 

[MynameStitch]

Are you using RO water, cause that is a calcium deficiency...... if you are using RO water your water contains no calcium nor magnesium which in turn needs to be supplemented with something like cal mag.

If you are not using RO and using tap water; you need to test the ppms of your tap water and find out how much ppms of calcium and magnesium you have in there.
You do not have any calcium supplements with your nutrients.....

I also noticed there is some brownish discoloration on the top 1/3 of the root ball, which may or may not be from the kelp or silica I have added. Should i try to rinse this off or is this normal?

Make sure it's not slime, a lot of nutrients do make a discoloration on the roots; you just want to make sure it's not slime or gunk; cause if it is slime or gunk you have the start of root rot. Water temps need to be around 65 for optimum uptake of nutrients and anything over 70 can speed along root rot.
Light Leaks cause alge growth can clog things make sure no light leaks are in your system.....

 

[Shliite]

thanks stitch. Great responses in both of my threads

I am not using RO water. My tap is highly alkaline and at about 120 PPMs. I'm not exactly sure how to tell if there is any calcium or magnesium present or how much. I'll pick up some cal-mag tomorrow because it looks like thats the solution.... i guess the reason i'm seeing this now and havent seen it before is because i just changed the light cycle?

Its tough to tell if its really slimy... i dipped in warm tap water and gently massaged around the discolored part. I think it was a little effective without loosing much root mass at all, but the ball is so massive that its tough to tell how deep it goes. My water temps are most likely too high, but i have light proofed my 5 gallon buckets as best as i could so hopefully it stays down. Shouldnt the hydroguard take care of it? or does that only prevent root rot as opposed to healing already-present root rot?

feels good to have figured out the problem, hopefully this doesnt set me back too much on yield / time /stress....

thanks again

 

[MynameStitch]

If your water temps are to high, you need to bring them down; as I said in my previous post it WILL and does cause problems not only with root rot; but it also caused problems with the way nutrients are absorbed.

You may have the start of root rot if your temps are to warm...... you need to get a thermometer and test the temp.....

Hydroguard does take care of it; but it only can be a brick wall and prevent it for so long; the only way to ensure you are not going to get it is making sure the start of the problem does not continue.... example...... warm temps... light leaks and such.

Hydroguard works as killing off when they start.. kinda like an anti biotic, but if you do not get rid of the problem that caused it... it just keeps coming back.

70-120 ppms is considered moderately hard....120-170 is considered hard.

Your problem may be steamed from higher water temps....... but when the plants get bigger they require more.... so yes the changing of the light cycle the plants just did not get enough from what was already in the water.......

 

[Shliite]

hey stitch...

i added 3 tblsps of cal-mag to my res (5 gal) today and adjusted pH to 5.8... the plant's tops and fan leaves are looking worse and worse. Is there anything else i can do to assist recovery? is it ever going to fully recover? anything to help...
thx for your help; its much appreciated.

-shlite

 

[MynameStitch]

Damaged leaves won't recover......

Can you post some more pics so I can see what they look like now? What are they doing?

You will know when the issue has stopped because the other leaves around the area will not be affected.

Also try to get a little brighter pictures, it's so hard to tell with the pictures the way they are...... you using a camera phone?

 

[b8man]

It takes a while for the plants to start recovering from the calcium def. If you have a foliar feed with calcium I advise you using that.

I had issues with mine and it caused a lot of damage. So you know, good luck!

 

[10k]

At 4 days into 12/12, you've changed your nutes to bloom nutes wayyyyy too soon.

 

[MynameStitch]

Yup, totaly I agree with 10K, but I was going to save it for later and try not to slam him with to much information at once lol.

 

[Shliite]

hah thanks for taking it easy on me stitch, but ill take whatever criticism you can throw my way without getting upset - so bring it on

I really wish i knew that a little before i changed my res again today ... i noticed that today my PPM reading went up 90ppm from yesterday (1150 to 1240). SO.. I removed some of the solution and replaced with tap water to dilute what was in there - bringing the ppm down to 920. After I did this I added the botanicare Cal-Mag 3.5 tablespoons for 5 gallons (for you metric guys thats about 10.5 ml per gallon i think ... which is a little <about .25 tablespoons worth> above the recommended rate of 5-10mL per gallon]) and adjusted the pH to 5.8. My final PPM after adding this was 1470! - A lot higher than i expected or really wanted.... but i was too lazy to dilute it some more.
(adding more tap = more pH adjustments = more 3 drop tests AHHH i cant wait for my digi tester).

Whats in there at the moment...like i said earlier is the PBP Bloom for Soil (hydro store guy said it could be used for hydro or soil; i got the soil so i could use for my outdoor plants as well), Greenfuse bloom stimulant, Hydroguard, and as of today the Cal-Mag.

The reason I added all bloom nutes to the reservoir was because when i called the Humboldt customer service to ask about applying BushMaster - they recommended that because i was changing the lights to flower, I should apply bloom nutrients.... Now i wouldnt be surprised if the lady didnt know what she was talking about... and i trust ya'll more than i do her... but could it be possible that in this situation, with bushmaster, that adding bloom nutes was the right thing to do?

I lost my camera recently (kind of scary - i dont know whats on it right now).. hopefully it turns up soon. Those pics were indeed with my camera phone. I'll see if i can borrow someone elses and get pics up asap.

For what its worth... the tops that look wilted in the pics i posted earlier look like they've been further damaged in the same way - that is: shriveled, dry to the touch, and curling inward (like a reverse taco...?). They are also pointing downward like the "rams horn" effect that I have been telling myself is a semi-normal effect of the bushmaster. Fan leaves that were showing the "rust" on the edges are easily noticed now having spread inward a little bit. The tips of these fan leaves are also a brownish rusty color - looking more damaged then yesterday.

Having added the cal-mag today, i wouldnt expect to see immediate results. I am going to just hope it doesnt get any worse and recovers fully at some point... wishful thinking? you probably know better than i do.

I have also just considered the possibility of me not doing a good enough job cleaning out the bucket after removing the bushmaster. It is supposed to cause some serious burn if left in for too long...

Suggestions? Thoughts? Concerns?

Thanks again for the help.

 

[10k]

After I did this I added the botanicare Cal-Mag 3.5 tablespoons for 5 gallons (for you metric guys thats about 10.5 ml per gallon i think ... which is a little <about .25 tablespoons worth> above the recommended rate of 5-10mL per gallon

One tablespoon = 15ml (or three teaspoons)
3-1/2 TABLESPOONS = 52.5 ml (or 10.5 teaspoons)
You added 3.5 tablespoons to the 5 gallons which works out to 10.5ml per gallon.

And thats a pretty high dose, considering the bloom ferts overdose quoted below...

My final PPM after adding this was 1470! - A lot higher than i expected or really wanted.... but i was too lazy to dilute it some more.
(adding more tap = more pH adjustments = more 3 drop tests AHHH i cant wait for my digi tester).

No offense intended here but...
Being "too lazy" is part of the problem here. Never allow your plants to be exposed to a nute strength that you feel is too strong, just because you felt 'lazy". Heres a tip...If you want to conserve your liquid test reagent, just fill the test tube "a third of the way you normally would" and use 'one' drop.

If you ever found yourself adding pH up to your res without first diluting it with water before dumping it in the mixed res...then you very well may have caused alot of the p&k to precipitate out of the solution, making it locked out & rendering it useless to the plants....but I digress...

I'd mix a fresh res of your veg nutes and run it for at least a week to get them back on track, and then transition into running bloom nutes. Never dump concentrated high P&K nutes, or pH up into a mixed res without first diluting it considerably with water first. That bushmaster additive for example arrrrgh dont get me started...just google "precipitate+hydro+nutrients"

hth

 

[MynameStitch]

When you flip the switch over the bloom; your plant does not switch over right away takes about a week for them to switch over and start using bloom nutrients.
So as 10k said you did switch over to bloom way to soon; this causes the plant to have less nitrogen for mid flowering; so instead of showing the normal late nitrogen deficiency; the plant will start showing it much earlier ... so I would definatly add nitrogen... ( grow) to your res..... I can see why you are pissed, cause you just changed your res

btw how big are these plants? 1400 seems kinda high.... but this is going by how big the leaves are since there is no picture of the entire plant.

When did you cut the nitrogen? 4 days ago right?
Do you remember your plants ppms before going into flowering by any chance?

Did you have any bloom in there when you were in veg?

 

[Shliite]

Stitch
Right, I agree and understand with your reasoning of keeping the grow(nitrogen) in the res into the first week of flower..BUT- i am not sure how familiar you are with bushmaster... I personally am not experienced at all - this is my first time. However, you can bet i did my fair share of reading and studying before i used it. Its a fairly unique product; it stops growth immediately upon application and begins the initiation of full flowering within the first 1-3 days of application (with hydro faster showing faster than soil). The stretch is minimal to none - sometimes 4" or so, sometimes none at all. I believe the rationalization by humbolt of switching to bloom immediately is provided in those previously listed features. I interpreted it as "the grow(nitrogen) normally used during the first week of 12/12 is for purposes of supporting the stretch and new growth - and that because the product stops this and starts flowering immediately there is no need for it".
Please don't interpret this as a backlash or as me lecturing to you; I respect the knowledge and help you constantly provide... i'm just making sure you are familiar with bushmaster before i make any changes. In-depth instructions for bushmaster are provided here: http://www.bghydro.com/mmbgh/Others...nstructions.pdf
and a very long thread with experiences and discussion is here: http://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=24490&highlight=bushmaster

This one plant ive been referring to is very big, but also a very big bush. It was topped, FIMed, stress trained, and overall has been through quite a bit of stress i'd say. Some older pictures...






But like i said, i didnt want the PPM to be at 1400... im going to adjust to 900-1100

I cut the grow nutrients at the time i applied bushmaster, on 10/31. The only other thing in the res at the time was MaxiCrop for a kelp additive (as recommended by the bushmaster instructions).

They were in the 800-1100 range towards the end of 18/6.
They also received foliar spray of the MaxiCrop the 3 days before the switch.
Yes- I did have a little bit of bloom nutes in the res during veg.



10K -

Sorry i didnt even see your second post until just now..

No offense intended here

none taken - no offense intended here either

You added 3.5 tablespoons to the 5 gallons which works out to 10.5ml per gallon.

And thats a pretty high dose, considering the bloom ferts overdose quoted below...

Cal-Mag instructions for hydro state 5-10mL(1-2tsp) per gallon. I added a little over because i thought that due to them having been so deficient of calcium and magnesium up to this point that they could use a little more to recover..

If you ever found yourself adding pH up to your res without first diluting it with water before dumping it in the mixed res...then you very well may have caused alot of the p&k to precipitate out of the solution, making it locked out & rendering it useless to the plants....but I digress...

I'm not exactly sure what your talking about here... Are you saying that i should dilute with water instead of adjusting pH? My tap comes out highly alkaline so if thats the case then no that wouldnt work... but im pretty sure thats not what you meant.. Perhaps your saying that I should add my nutes/pH adjusters to water before adding it to my res? if thats the case then i would tell you that i am running separate reservoirs (5 gallon buckets each separate with their own airline and stone) and that when i adjust my reservoir I do it without the plant in it. The plant sits in an empty bucket of the same size while i work on my res. ...im guessing you meant something else. sorry if i misinterpreted.

Seems like the common tip here is to put some grow nutes back into the mix so I think i'll clean out my bucket thoroughly to make sure theres no bushmaster lingering and go 70/30 on grow/bloom nutes.

 

[MynameStitch]

I know bush master; have not used it but I have seen many grows; there is no way any product on the market can force a plant into flowering in 1 to 3 days; that is like saying there is a tonic to make a person go through puberty at any age lol.


The plant's system has to have time to switch over, when it does it's need for p and k kick in and less nitrogen....... it works excellent for lateral growth... also heard it can cause less yield... bushy plants like that need more light stronger light to get through all those leaves.... you end up with a lot of popcorn size buds..... plants like that need a lot of side lighting,but does not switch over to flowering any quicker imo.

Even still IF it did.. you would still need to use some nitrogen, all flowering plants need some nitrogen but no where near as much as veg; more nitrogen causes stretching and delayed flowering.

Naa man, I do not take it at all that you are lecturing me; but just ensuring that I know about the product... no offense taken!

Still, there has to be some solid proof to make me think otherwise that a single product would speed up flowering in 3 days..... cause normally it takes around a week for flowering to really kick in.... plants respond to flowering from lighting differences unless it's a auto flowering strain. So that is one reason why I do not see a product working to speed up flowering when the plant is triggered by less daylight/light cycle rather than certain nutrients.

 

[Shliite]

Alright well today I brought my PPM down to 900. I didnt log everything specifically but it was about 3/4 grow nutes and 1/4 bloom. Hydroguard was added and I left out the bloom stimulant. Leaves look about the same as yesturday, maybe a bit more of that copper look on the edges...

borrowed a camera:

 

[MynameStitch]

Add some more bloom nutrients or just potassium.......... well it's hard to say how much cause 1/4 dose dose not say excatly how much.

 

[Shliite]

i meant 1/4 of total PPM that got put in... but i'd estimate it was around 6-7ml/gallon. Should i add more? is the greenfuse bloom stimulant supposed to be added through all of flowering or just at certain points?

Is there a foliar spray solution i can make with my cal-mag to assist recovery? I see in your guide that you recommend dolomite lime or garden lime but i dont have that in my arsenal at the moment. I'd imagine it wouldnt be hard to find though...

This scares me: "Calcium is absorbed best in Hydro and Soil less Mediums at ph levels of 5.4-5.8"
I find it hard to pinpoint the pH with the drop tester to that extreme.. thank god the digital tester is in the mail..

And the label with the readings just rubbed off All i know is i want a orangish yellow

thanks stitch

 

[Shliite]

this pic is from 3 days ago:


these are from today:

I recently (6 days ago) gave my K2 the bushmaster (3ml/gallon for 3 days), and I noticed today that the rams horns are starting to become more visible and there is actually some burn that is almost identical to the Sweet Warp's. In both of my bushmastered plants the horns showed up more after I took it out than while it was in. This leads me to believe that whatever the "deficiency" may have been in the Sweet Warp could have been caused by the BushMaster... and it may not have been a deficiency at all; it could have been straight nute burn. The reason I come to this conclusion is because the K2 was supplemented with cal-mag before and after the bushmaster was applied- so i dont think its a cal or mag deficiency that caused the discoloration... but it is possible, i guess, that my pH is locking out the cal-mag and that it is indeed a deficiency... eh who knows.
K2 pics from today:

 

[MynameStitch]

We all said your nutrient strength was to much; nutrient burn does lead to lockout from a certain amount of nutrients being to high and that causes mostly micro nutrients to become locked out.

Bush master contains sea kelp, which I think contains some nitrogen if I remember correctly; to much nitrogen causes rams horns.

 

[greenisgold]

I uesed BM for the first time in my soil grow. These were ww's. I gave one 1 tsp and the other 3\4's tsp. Both plants were identical looking in height, shape structure and so on. The one I gave 3\4 looks awesome the other showed signs of ram horn leaves, but not as bad as yours. It also showed the edges of the leaves burning like your other pic. I thought this to be either a calcium or a potasium def. It was hard to tell, so I foliar fed with cal max and after 4 days, noithing. I said screw it and I flushed the plant because my assumption was that the bush masters (god only knows what the hell is in that shit) was locking the plant up. The run off was 6.1-yikes! 5 days after the flush, the plant looks so much better and back to it's reg nute regime. Run off 6.7. That BM stuff is like playing with fire.