Cal Elected Officials Blast Federal Attacks

[rives]

Once again, NPO's and whatever twisted version of profit that they can come up with is of no relevance whatsoever. 420 states "A primary caregiver who receives compensation for actual expenses, including reasonable compensation incurred for services provided" is immune from prosecution under 11359 or 11360 (manufacturing, transporting, etc). Admittedly, it would be very difficult, if not impossible, to take my model back to the grower level since they would have no way of determining which market their product ends up supplying. The "D" owners could certainly absorb the difference for the minuscule portion of the product that winds up in a true medical usage, particularly since most of their prices haven't changed substantially with a near 50% drop in cost of the inbound product and if the "recreational" portion is left to market-driven pricing. It would simply become part of the cost of doing business. The reality of it would be that the prices that they would be willing to pay for inbound product would quickly be adjusted to reflect the overall profit margin that they were realizing.

Incidentally, I don't "despise" the dispensaries. I just see incredible irony in the outrage and surprise that they profess when the entire mmj model has been so corrupted as to be meaningless. This federal reaction is exactly what was predicted during the Prop 19 debates by many of us, yet most of the "D" owners actively campaigned against legislation that could have not only opened up new markets for them, but also shown that the majority of the people supported legalization. Instead they provided another tool for the Fed's to justify ramping up enforcement because it had become a "popular mandate".

 

[BiG H3rB Tr3E]

Not to be a Federal government apologist here, as they are fucking everything up -- but has anybody considered that one of the major reasons why these things keep happening could be the fact that MMJ is a fucking sham and sick people are going without while dispo owners are padding their pockets with the profits? Could it be that, just maybe, we as a community need to step up and effect some grass roots change in our own camp so that the "rest of the country" might actually take us seriously? If I hadn't grown up in this subculture and was on the outside looking in, I would have already written the MMJ "movement" off a decade ago simply because of the people who are representing our side in public...

sorry to sound like a broken record, but I just can't believe anybody can take MMJ seriously anymore, and I think that is a large part of the problem here...

nah listen here. mmj isnt a sham - prohibition is. the fucking fact that everything is so ass backward that the only way people would get behind making mj available to the masses is by packaging it as a medical neccessity is dishearteng to say the LEAST. and having seen this game play out from both sides of the fence i can tell you a few things.

- there are alot of people who are seriously ill that benefit IMMENSELY from marijuana, and dispensaries (as easy as it seems to demonize) have moved the marijuana community to a point nobody could have ever dreamed of by providing a safe enviornment for people who otherwise would have no way to find the best meds that will help them. how many street dealers have the selection that dispensaries do? or carry fresh edibles, tinctures and various types of hash? how would older folks who have families or careers or simply dont know where to obtain cannabis from get their medication otherwise? do you know how many elderly patients there are who have told me what a godsend the dispensary model is? yeah it may be great for johnny smokealot whos fresh out of high school or college and probably knows 10 people who sell weed - but what about for people your parents age or your grandparents age (depending on how old you are), who would otherwise have NO IDEA how to go about getting medicine to help them? the elderly are the ones who have alot of problems healthwise and are the ones who really have been finding alot of comfort and relief in mj.

- yeah the system is overly used and abused? so fucking what? we slang the deadliest drug to tens of millions of americans EVERY FUCKING DAY. how many violent crimes, deaths and health problems are caused by alcohol, yet no one bats a fuckign eye about it and sits here bitching about marijuana like its a fucking childrens genocide..

- medical marijuana will be the foot in the door that will eventually lead to legalization. getting people used to the idea - while helping people who find relief from mj. proving to naysayers that marijuana can be produced, distributed, sold and enjoyed without the sky falling and causing the apocalypse of society.

so whats the worst case scenario from an abused mmj card? a few people stop buying from street dealers? more jobs are created in CA? the economy gets a boost from legitimized sales?

oh the horror....

 

[rives]

yeah the system is overly used and abused? so fucking what?

BHT, I'd agree with everything that you say here with the exception of the above. Anytime something is abused to this degree, it will inevitably result in a strong response eventually. Guess where we are now? Yep, it has brought mj to the masses, along with the realization of how truly benign it really is. Unfortunately, it has also fueled the Federal response that is now cutting off access for people that truly need it. I don't know how things are looking in SoCal, but from south of Sacramento to Redding, doors have been slamming shut all over. It's time to get this shit done properly.

 

[BiG H3rB Tr3E]

BHT, I'd agree with everything that you say here with the exception of the above. Anytime something is abused to this degree, it will inevitably result in a strong response eventually. Guess where we are now? Yep, it has brought mj to the masses, along with the realization of how truly benign it really is. Unfortunately, it has also fueled the Federal response that is now cutting off access for people that truly need it. I don't know how things are looking in SoCal, but from south of Sacramento to Redding, doors have been slamming shut all over. It's time to get this shit done properly.

well maybe it will get some fucking stoners to put down the bong and get off the god damn couch long enough to vote yes when we relaunch a legalization effort next year...instead of justifying not voting due to having a flawed a mmj system and a lax law on small mj poss. charges

 

[Zen Master]

Once again, NPO's and whatever twisted version of profit that they can come up with is of no relevance whatsoever. 420 states "A primary caregiver who receives compensation for actual expenses, including reasonable compensation incurred for services provided" is immune from prosecution under 11359 or 11360 (manufacturing, transporting, etc).

hahaha okay sorry I had to comment on this.

so its okay for growers/disp owners to receive compensation, and in doing so they are immune to prosecution? but it has to be non profit. so, no profits.... Hmmmmmmm doesn't 'reasonable compensation' come from 'profit'?

this has been my argument regarding non profit the whole time, you can make bank running a dispensary and STILL be 'non profit'.

go ask any one of the landlords/D owners/vendors/patients if they are "immune from prosecution". I hope nobody laughs in your face because that couldn't be further from the truth. I myself have been in 100% compliance and still had to take a mandatory vacation due to rogue leo feelin' like he makes the laws, the way they get away with that is because more often than not, the cost of retaining a good lawyer and going to trial is more than just taking the loss and moving on.


In your opinion, what is "reasonable compensation" for a dispensary owner to make as a wage in this legal climate after their overhead/direct out of pocket expenses. $1 a year? $10,000 a year? $100k? Where do you draw the line on "reasonable" (an extremely subjective term)?


I dont disagree with you that growers ROI per P has gone down, supply has gone up, tremendously. So if its 95% recreational (that figure I DO disagree with), wouldn't you think the stoners would get a med card for 'protection' and then just buy from their old dealers for $30 an eighth of the same stuff the D buys from the same broker or grower for <$30 and retails for ~$50+? Patient wins, grower wins. I know potheads get a bad rap for intelligence but c'mon, give us some credit on being able to compute simple math.

 

[rives]

so its okay for growers/disp owners to receive compensation, and in doing so they are immune to prosecution? but it has to be non profit. so, no profits.... Hmmmmmmm doesn't 'reasonable compensation' come from 'profit'?

Compensation as used here would be under the heading of salary/wages as opposed to business profitability.

go ask any one of the landlords/D owners/vendors/patients if they are "immune from prosecution". I hope nobody laughs in your face because that couldn't be further from the truth. I myself have been in 100% compliance and still had to take a mandatory vacation due to rogue leo feelin' like he makes the laws, the way they get away with that is because more often than not, the cost of retaining a good lawyer and going to trial is more than just taking the loss and moving on.

Well, since the great majority of the D's aren't in compliance with the spirit of this legislation, we don't really know if they are immune from prosecution, do we? Most of the D's that I've read about that the Fed's have gone after are for "excess profits". That is one of my points - virtually everyone recognizes that mmj as it currently stands is a farce, yet they are surprised when the Fed's also recognize it.

In your case, you nailed it already - rogue LEO. That's assuming, of course, that you were in compliance with this legislation that you don't really seem to have a complete grasp of.

In your opinion, what is "reasonable compensation" for a dispensary owner to make as a wage in this legal climate after their overhead/direct out of pocket expenses. $1 a year? $10,000 a year? $100k? Where do you draw the line on "reasonable" (an extremely subjective term)?

This is obviously dependent on the area and cost of living. I have various friends in Northern California that have heavy equipment businesses, many of whom have upwards of a couple of million dollars tied up in their equipment and they all work very long hours under dangerous conditions. Most of them are making in the area of $60-100,000, and if they lived down south they would be making several times that. Perhaps doing something like a multiple of the average hourly compensation that they pay their employees - it could even incent them to pay a little better.

I dont disagree with you that growers ROI per P has gone down, supply has gone up, tremendously. So if its 95% recreational (that figure I DO disagree with), wouldn't you think the stoners would get a med card for 'protection' and then just buy from their old dealers for $30 an eighth of the same stuff the D buys from the same broker or grower for <$30 and retails for ~$50+? Patient wins, grower wins. I know potheads get a bad rap for intelligence but c'mon, give us some credit on being able to compute simple math.

There are lot's of people on this site that do exactly that. I think that selection and convenience probably outweigh the stoner math, however, and I would think that those factors have probably gone a long way toward eliminating these old sources. Any grower with a nickel's worth of sense is not going to be dealing eighths to the public.

If you think that my 95% recreational figure is objectionable, you would probably be really offended at my premise that mmj is contributing to making the bulk of a generation into a bunch of wusses. Getting comfortable with the notion that you "need" medicine and that you have a "condition" that needs treating is detrimental to your psyche. Even if it is true, you are far better off mentally to wall that idea off and try and convince yourself of your health and well-being. Instead we have rewarded the idea that if you take any little problem and wallow in it, then you can be rewarded with mmj access. This is something that I have extensive experience with - I am a chronic pain patient and have found that the more I ignore it and try to keep my activity level up, the better I feel. I don't even like telling my doctor about how I really feel because it makes it more "real". I'm not saying that mmj isn't effective or beneficial, just that the way access is controlled to it creates an unhealthy environment.

 

[BiG H3rB Tr3E]

hahaha okay sorry I had to comment on this.

so its okay for growers/disp owners to receive compensation, and in doing so they are immune to prosecution? but it has to be non profit. so, no profits.... Hmmmmmmm doesn't 'reasonable compensation' come from 'profit'?

this has been my argument regarding non profit the whole time, you can make bank running a dispensary and STILL be 'non profit'.

go ask any one of the landlords/D owners/vendors/patients if they are "immune from prosecution". I hope nobody laughs in your face because that couldn't be further from the truth. I myself have been in 100% compliance and still had to take a mandatory vacation due to rogue leo feelin' like he makes the laws, the way they get away with that is because more often than not, the cost of retaining a good lawyer and going to trial is more than just taking the loss and moving on.


In your opinion, what is "reasonable compensation" for a dispensary owner to make as a wage in this legal climate after their overhead/direct out of pocket expenses. $1 a year? $10,000 a year? $100k? Where do you draw the line on "reasonable" (an extremely subjective term)?


I dont disagree with you that growers ROI per P has gone down, supply has gone up, tremendously. So if its 95% recreational (that figure I DO disagree with), wouldn't you think the stoners would get a med card for 'protection' and then just buy from their old dealers for $30 an eighth of the same stuff the D buys from the same broker or grower for <$30 and retails for ~$50+? Patient wins, grower wins. I know potheads get a bad rap for intelligence but c'mon, give us some credit on being able to compute simple math.

google non profit payrolls for chairmans and boardmembers. many of them make 6 and 7 figure salaries.... and im not sure where you live but around here street dealers charge as much as dispensaries...

 

[Zen Master]

google non profit payrolls for chairmans and boardmembers. many of them make 6 and 7 figure salaries.... and im not sure where you live but around here street dealers charge as much as dispensaries...

thats what I've been trying to get through Rives head for the past 3 pages. How much one pays themselves is up to them, if your local city councilman (Rizzo anyone?) is paying themselves an extremely exorbitant salary, oust the fucker, there's someone else willing to do a better job for cheaper. I dont see growers lining up to operate a D themselves (yeah some do) because they KNOW its putting a target right on your back. To the people that think its soooo easy to get a storefront that will even rent to someone knowing its going to be a co op, it isn't. I'd say well over 75% of dispensaries are listed as "holistic care" or "health club" or any of the 'fronts' people put up just so they can even get a business license. Go ahead and try to get a license and storefront by filing "medical cannabis co op" as the description of your business, if your county even allows them.

since there isn't a 100% safe and legal way to grow and distribute MMJ to patients (state 'legal' or not) the financial and legal risks need to be accounted for. Saying they should make 60k a year like a heavy machine operator is asinine, absolutely nothing alike in regards to what is on the line.

Well, since the great majority of the D's aren't in compliance with the spirit of this legislation, we don't really know if they are immune from prosecution, do we? Most of the D's that I've read about that the Fed's have gone after are for "excess profits". That is one of my points - virtually everyone recognizes that mmj as it currently stands is a farce, yet they are surprised when the Fed's also recognize it.

"spirit of the legislation"? as in they should have a sit down pow wow with the patients primary physician and develop a course of treatment? Or do you mean only allow people in wheelchairs or if you can prove you've got full blown AIDS etc? dispensaries aren't doctors, they are access points for patients to take advantage of the medicine a doctor feels they could increase their quality of life with. Kids these days are all hopped up on Adderal and Vicodins from their "legal" doctors, is that a better alternative to cannabis? I dont think so.

I have yet to see a single dispensary that goes around puffing their chest saying "were immune, you can't prosecute us" even the extremely high profile Harborside has federal issues (tax and criminal)

to feds, "excess profits" is anything and everything, if you have receipts saying you spent xxx on rent and xxx on utilities and xxx on inventory and overhead, it doesn't matter, they will clean out the cash register(even the change), the safe, and everything inbetween. Want it back? prove its 'legal'. Guess what, its illegal federally and you wont get a fucking dime back if feds raid you.

you know they raid more high profile dispensaries BECAUSE they have money tied up in the business right? how else do you think the DEA funds some of their actions and guarantee a equal or larger budget next fiscal year? Gotta have cash on hand to fund your inventory, not like growers just drop off 5 packs and dont expect a cent till its all distributed (any grower doing consignment is retarded).

 

[rives]

thats what I've been trying to get through Rives head for the past 3 pages. How much one pays themselves is up to them

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that you are being selectively obtuse to keep the discussion going. SB420, whose link I posted for your perusal, says no profits, not non-profit, but no-fucking-profits. I think it's pretty funny that you can't follow how the model is supposed to work and keep trying to impose your interpretation of "what should be". READ THE LEGISLATION. If you will recall, the dispensaries started as co-ops, and only gradually evolved into their present status as things became progressively more lax. However, the underlying legislation has not changed.

Saying they should make 60k a year like a heavy machine operator is asinine, absolutely nothing alike in regards to what is on the line.

I didn't use this as justification for what the "D" operators should be paid, I used it as an example of the very wide economic disparity within the borders of California. And I didn't say "machine operator", I was talking about the business owner. But you are correct in that they are no way comparable - the guys with excavating companies have dangerous jobs, long hours, work in extremes of heat and cold, the equipment is extremely capital-intensive, it takes years to acquire their skills, they have thin profit margins and lots of competition. So, again, you are right - they aren't comparable.

"spirit of the legislation"? as in they should have a sit down pow wow with the patients primary physician and develop a course of treatment?

No, as in complying with what it says in the fucking legislation, not by going by what they think it should have said.

 

[Zen Master]

can't have any 'reasonable compensation' period without revenue generated over the base cost of production. Not a dime.

Profit is whats left over after all expenses are accounted for.

here are some other peoples words on it since you dont like mine.

prof·it/ˈpräfit/
Noun:
A financial gain, esp. the difference between the amount earned and the amount spent in buying, operating, or producing something.

it takes people to operate a store, people usually get paid to do work. The 'profit' a company makes is after expenses (wages included) amongst many other costs are deducted.

Profit is an accounting concept intended to measure the surplus of revenue over expenses for a particular period of time. Reported on the profit-and-loss financial statement, it is an indicator of the health of a company.

Profit is calculated by adding revenue, subtracting all costs of sales and all expenses (including depreciation and other non-cash expenses) to calculate the profit before tax. Subtract taxes from profit before tax to obtain net after-tax profit, which is also called net income. Profit calculations may vary by industry and tax jurisdiction.

Remember, profit is accounting, not cash.

buy a wholesale gram @ 7.50, retail for 12, thats a "profit" of 4.50 right? Wrong. Simply being in business eats up some of that 4.50, increasing inventory and strain options for patients eats up a good chunk of it, lawyer fees, advertising, etc etc, then the remainder is paid to employees (owner/operator taking the biggest wage presumably, as it should be). No net profit even though it could generate income for people on a large scale. Profit would be if after ALL expenses and wages, there is STILL money left over.

its not "Joes dispensary" and every cent generated is the sole property of Joe, the owner/operator to do with as he so wishes. Its "dispensary123" and Joe is an employee of the company. Get it?

for instance
Apple pays all of its bills, pays for all of its R&D, pays the utilities at its stores and advertises like crazy, pays every single worker from the cashier to the boardroom. It still turns a PROFIT on top of all of that and adds to its cash reserves at an alarming rate, its in business to make a profit, which it does damn well.

if that last line in the 2nd definition doesn't sink in I don't know what else to say.

"Remember, profit is accounting, not cash."


but this is getting circular and if clinging to one word in one subsection of one article makes you feel your definition of "profit" is correct, so be it.

 

[BiG H3rB Tr3E]

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that you are being selectively obtuse to keep the discussion going. SB420, whose link I posted for your perusal, says no profits, not non-profit, but no-fucking-profits. I think it's pretty funny that you can't follow how the model is supposed to work and keep trying to impose your interpretation of "what should be". READ THE LEGISLATION.

Under state law, the California Compassionate Use Act of 1996 (Prop. 215) exempts patients and their primary caregivers from criminal prosecution for personal possession and cultivation of marijuana, but NOT for distribution or sale to others.

State law was expanded in 2004 by law, SB 420 (Health & Safety Code 11362.7-8), which (1) authorizes caregivers who provide marijuana to patients to be compensated for the costs of their services, though not on a for-profit basis; and (2) allows patients to form cultivation "collectives" or "cooperatives."

Compensation of costs for goods & services leads me and most others to the conclusion that work is a cost that should be compensated for. This unfortunatly is where the gray area comes into play as to what is and isnt excessive price, thus leading to rather or not the pay is for reasonable compensation or for profit.

The healthcare industry in america is based nearly purely on profit, what makes marijuana any different? Pharmaceutical companies pull in billions of dollars in profit a year, doctors make plush salaries while taking payoffs from pill companies, health insurance companies have profit/loss advisors who determine what is the best course of action for the companies financial margins.

The problem here is not to hold each other to the fire, but demand a legal market where we need not sit here and play this game. Everyone deserves to make a living wage and if they operate a business successfully deserve to enjoy in the fruits of their labor.

 

[rives]

Again, Herb, I agree. My whole argument has been that we have strayed so far from the original concept of mmj that the current situation bears virtually no resemblance to where things started. The legislation hasn't changed to precipitate these changes, it has come about simply from progressively pushing the envelope over a long period of time. The unfortunate result is that, since there is little or no legal standing for the current model, Big Brother has decided to jump in. Regarding your question as to what makes mmj any different than a for-profit healthcare industry, my opinion is that it is different because it sprang from legislation that was based on "compassion", not profit, and those laws haven't changed.

As I stated earlier when ZM asked me what my "ideal" model was, it would be nice to provide genuinely sick people with mmj on an at-cost basis (as originally intended), and let "recreational" mj pay the freight. I have no problem whatsoever with capitalism, but mmj is what has paved the way to the current level of acceptability, and now the people who need it most are losing access as a result of the envelope pushing.

 

[rives]

Profit is whats left over after all expenses are accounted for.

its not "Joes dispensary" and every cent generated is the sole property of Joe, the owner/operator to do with as he so wishes. Its "dispensary123" and Joe is an employee of the company. Get it?

These statements seem remarkably at odds with this one:

Hmmmmmmm doesn't 'reasonable compensation' come from 'profit'?

It appears to me that you now understand my point and are struggling with admitting it. I have said all along that the "D" operator's "reasonable compensation" is not profit, it is overhead. For instance, if the business was publicly held, all of the employees could make their salaries, all of the bills be paid, yet the stockholders not make anything because there were no profits. Where we disagree is the concept that the operator should "make bank", as you stated. If the operator's compensation was similar to what he would be paid if the "D" was a publicly-held corporation, thus being "reasonable compensation" for the position, fine. That compensation level would most likely be a far cry from the 250k that you were talking about, however.

 

[Zen Master]

you're right, I should have said revenue, my bad.

You kinda got me all caught up in the whole "profit is anything past the base cost of production" mentality. Profit is a term that gets thrown around and the true legal definition of it is different than what most would phrase it as.

good eye picking apart my poor choice of words, still doesn't change the current 'paradigm' of dispensaries you loathe.

I dont use the phrase "make bank" as in to make millions and go buy some $150k sports car every year, rather that D owners can make a handsome income and I feel they SHOULD at this current point in time due to the crazy risks they are taking. Its no guarantee when an owner rolls up to work that the doors wont be smashed and everything seized with a business card from the DEA sitting on the counter, or that some thug feels a couple pounds is worth more than your life and has no problem putting a few rounds through your chest. Yeah I guess D owners should make 30k a year and barely get by, not to mention never save anything for the future.

sucks getting your livelihood that probably supports other people yanked out from under you for the next (who knows how long) years.

 

[vta]

great debate dudes

One thing I would like to toss in here is the word...diversion. This was a hot topic years and years ago. Brought up by city councils and police. You see, there had been clubs that sold MMJ at way below street prices. And guess what...street dealers were all over it. As these dealers got caught, with their cool labeled containers, a trail back to these clubs was made. They got shut down...one that I knew of was visited by LAPD and was told in not so many words to raise prices. Lower prices just means that more MMJ is being diverted to the black market...full circle if you will.

That said, one of the busiest clubs in the SFV has a $45 1/8 cap.

anyways...running a club, just like any biz, has a lot of costs. A lot more than what the street dealer has. Store lease, alarm charges, security(how much does an armed guard cost per hour?), computers, internet plus off site data hosting of members info, utilities, office and lobby furniture, employees(a full staff of workers is not cheap), workers comp, capital to buy product, packaging(not just a baggy), retainer for lawyer, etc...etc...etc...

All that cost above while the street dealer is charging the same thing? Also, unlike the street dealer, the club pays taxes and most of the ones I know of do some type of charity.


Are there clubs taking advantage and making too much money? I don't know...whose definition are we going by? Who is to say the limit on so and so's salary should be xxx? I'm not getting it!

 

[R3ZNH3AD]

Shut all clubs down. That's my feeling... I don't like clubs, and never will... The FEDS are doing a wonderful job

 

[megayields]

Had to renew my card a couple weeks ago. Went to the doctors office...was taken into a separate room...where upon...I talked to the doctor himself on Skype for 2 minutes....paid the receptionist $45 and received a new card.

It's hard to take this movement/industry serious. An in house cleaning for the benefit of the movement is needed.

Amen... when I renewed mine recently I just sat at this laptop, hooked up my Logitech camera, and 10 min later had it renewed (eyeballs rolling) oh yeah very medical ....I had to laugh.

btw- they just closed 2 more dispo's today in my county and one more of my friends just told me another dispo who no one thought would get a letter.....got a "letter" today.

This subterfuge from the "elected officials" protesting the recent federal attack is nothing but political smoke blowing and will (imho) effect the Fed's NOT the least bit.

Next...

 

[Zen Master]

Shut all clubs down. That's my feeling... I don't like clubs, and never will... The FEDS are doing a wonderful job

I'm sure grandma loves meeting 'the homie' down at the taco bell parking lot at 11 pm for her glaucoma relief, that is, if he even comes through and has something other than that crazy sativa that had her up all night paranoid last time.

 

[Hydro-Soil]

Without the patients/users giving these doctors their money, that issue would not exist. Let's give credit where credit is due; nobody, least of all the vast majority of "patients," is without blame here.

The whole problem is that you had to see a doctor in the first place.

Until cannabis is treated like any other vegetable in your garden.... people/this-nation is going to suffer. End of story.


In other words... You need to be able to grow as much as you like... give away and trade to your neighbors as much as you like and only have regulation/restriction when you decide to sell it commercially.

Stay Safe!

 

[Hydro-Soil]

Any DEA/Fed that suddenly comprehended the total amount of devastation and horror that they've caused..... would probably shoot themselves to escape the misery.

The truth shall set YOU free... not the schmuck down the hall.

Stay Safe!