Bush Weed Seeds

[HAZENACIOUS]

Hi there
I am not a breeder, just grow for myself and I started growing recently

I see this method has been applied to clean hermie genetics and I have grown some genetics done with this method


My question is if you are not watering down the line by selecting only the Guanatanamo survivors which have been subdued to severe torturing.

Wouldnt it be better to select and cultivate landraces trying to mimic or replicate the strain local environment in order to avoid hermies and at the same time mantaining or improving the quality?


I mean, would you have the same quality progeny if the father was a happy man/plant living in peace and freedom or if the father was subdued to severe stress or torturing? This is epigenetics


And I dont think the stressed plant would show hermie traits in their natural environment. By culling these plants which were forced to hermie but dont show natural hermie traits as in the picture above, wouldnt you be culling potency as well?


We are talking about tropical plants. The photoperiod in the tropics is up to 14-10. At Santa Marta photperiod is 11.5-12.5

How come it became a norm and tested method to grow landraces sativas at 18-6?

Hi Funkyhorse,
The reason is plants veg quicker, sativas veg much quicker than indicas in general in my experience, also a lot of growers feel that the sharp contrast of making a significant switch leads the plants to differentiate more surely and bud quicker and larger.



I don't know, I've always used 24 hours and 12 hours, because Nevil recommends it, switched to it for breeding, it has always worked very well, significantly better than 18-6 when I did a controlled test on it many years ago, never used lower light hours than that so I can't comment, but I do much better with landraces then most, so I am speaking from experience.
Culling plants would only effect potency negatively if the more potent plant got culled right? But the more potent plant is a hermie or it wouldn't have been culled, so it's a trade off, who cares if it's a bit more potent when your crop gets seeded to hell by it.


My experience: you don't want to breed with a Hermie for any reason, (unless you are making fems in which case it's even more important to purge hermies, and make sure you chemically alter a plant that wouldn't Hermie on its own)

This is why it is important to stress them, but don't torture them, you want to mimic the kind of stress that inadvertently might occur in a typical grow from error.



To clarify, I don't torture my plants, that's not necessary, when I say "stress the hell out of" I mean specifically, I do certain things that tend to make them hermie, the technique is simple really. First the plants are root bound, secondly the light cycle is messed with in flowering, by doing the types of things people typically do by mistake, ie open it for a few seconds in dark, so some light gets in, don't close the door for a few hours when light goes off, etc, and turn the circulation off intermittently in the first month of budding, but make sure they don't fry, and let it get to 90-95 degrees, these things combined will tend to make unstable plants Hermie; please note this is a remedy, maybe tough medicine and only used with a line that has significant hermies.

In every case I have been able to rid a problem line of hermies and all but eliminate the expression of hermies in that line. Which makes the line usable for me because I don't grow with hermies, I grow Sensimilla.

 

[Elmer Bud]

Well you were a fan boy of shantis to mate at one point i became a fan of there genetics and still am.

I never saw hermies in Nevil's work or shantis but that could be because of luck or just no lite leeks who knows ?.

The topic here is why are Bush weeds seeds herming when the genetics grown by Nevil and Kanga did not.

No , the point I am making is Nevil would and had previously bred with herms .

So your statement he wouldn`t breed with herms is incorrect .

And you have grown how many Mr Nice strains , how many times ?
Grow more - see more ...

 

[troutman]

Easy solution.

Don't like Nevil's or anyone elses strains? Then don't grow them.

Think you can do better? Start breeding and show the World.

 

[@hempy]

your limited experience proves nothing really hempy ,
some folks grow hundreds and thousands of seeds and dont seem to agree with your experience from barely a handful .



ive heard u say you didnt think any of the sativas were prone to hermie until indica was added ,
though most other folks who have grown a lot of sativas disagree,



i had this debate with you eons ago about thai showing 30 % intersexed plants , you disagreed strongly ,
then when i questioned what you did you said of the ""3"" seeds you grew , 1 was male , 1 was female and 1 was hermi ,
not sure how your maths is , but that is the same as i said , 30%

sometimes i think you dont agree simply because it hasnt come from your mouth .. ...

i really dont think you have enough experience to go making blanket statements on all sativas , because you just havent seen enough to do that ...

Male plants can also be hermies ,

many folks dont grow them out to check and they are quite common , as common as female hermies ..



sativas can show these traits from the beginning of flower , all the way through the cycle , even at the end ..



the hermies in the lines bushy released were simply due to lack of good selection , had the person making them fully tested all plants for these traits it would have definitely lessened the chance of them appearing ... its as simple as that ....

according to what bushy said even your thai showed those traits, but you disregard/discredit anything he says as it doesnt agree with what you say ..

Yet again we see the classic Donald at work well i have grown pure sativas for over 4 decades i would not call that limited experience .

I never saw a pure sativa plant show male flowers on a female plant once sexed as a female in early mid or later flower until i grew dutch genetics yes and i stand by that comment.

Bushy grew your Loas that was a hermie and a few others like the nimbin line and a few more along with Kangas.

I know Kangas didn't herm or are you now claiming Kangas hermied to ?.

You think to highly of your self Donald and i would appreciate it if you left your snidely comments to your self and out of the forum.

 

[@hempy]

No , the point I am making is Nevil would and had previously bred with herms .

So your statement he wouldn`t breed with herms is incorrect .

And you have grown how many Mr Nice strains , how many times ?
Grow more - see more ...

I have grown MrNice lines for 2 decades now mate and the only time i saw male flowers on a female plant was one time when i left her go past her harvest time weeks after she was ready for harvest.

I have not grown the indica or indica heavy lines apart from the G13/Sk test seed all the rest were Haze hybrids and the Widow.

Threw the years Nevil breed how many reports of hermies have you read regarding his lines ?.It is possible some of the plant lines could under set stressful conditions but if they were as common as some are claiming people would not of grown his work or breed using his work.

 

[HAZENACIOUS]

No , the point I am making is Nevil would and had previously bred with herms .

So your statement he wouldn`t breed with herms is incorrect .

And you have grown how many Mr Nice strains , how many times ?
Grow more - see more ...

Hi Elmer,

As a general rule, Nevil said you shouldn't breed with, or even grow herms. None of the seeds I ever got from Nevil hermed.


Never say never, when breeding.

There are exceptions to every rule, for example an old line with superior traits may have been reduced to a few samples that all Hermie, you may be forced to work with them if the traits they possess are that important to you as there is no other option, fortunately I've never been in that situation.

 

[Donald Mallard]

Yet again we see the classic Donald at work well i have grown pure sativas for over 4 decades i would not call that limited experience .

I never saw a pure sativa plant show male flowers on a female plant once sexed as a female in early mid or later flower until i grew dutch genetics yes and i stand by that comment.

Bushy grew your Loas that was a hermie and a few others like the nimbin line and a few more along with Kangas.

I know Kangas didn't herm or are you now claiming Kangas hermied to ?.

You think to highly of your self Donald and i would appreciate it if you left your snidely comments to your self and out of the forum.

well maybe only limited by the amount you have grown , which is what i meant ,
i know your an old man , its obvious in many of your posts lol


as mentioned by eb , the more you grow , as in numbers , the more you see , if you havent grown hundreds and thousands , your experience of variety is limited ... thats fact and there is no getting around it ...

did i claim kangas plants were hermies? goodness i must be catching that old guy thing too because i dont recall saying that , i only recall commenting on the seed produced by beans via bushy..



i realize you think i regard myself highly , i dont , im a down to earth person , but i have read and learned by reading and practical work , as have many on these boards ,
so when you make statements that are opposite of what some of us have learned , expect to be pulled up on it and asked to explain yourself ,
this is how forums work , you cant just make outlandish , outrageous claims that go against what others with more experience have learned and not expect to be asked to explain yourself ...

so sorry i wont be keeping my comments to myself , even if you ask nicely ,, i will inquire further , its in my nature to question , its one of the ways i learn more ...

btw , yes i found hermies in the laos also ,
in males and females ,

however i did make a seed line from them , laos mango ,
many have grown it , and not one single hermie has been reported, amazing isnt it.. ?? just assed it in i guess ...

 

[@hempy]

Give it a rest Donald your full of it what i dont get is how your still a moderator and are you going to send me a nasty Reputation message today lol.

 

[BullDogDad]

I’ve got some Mullum Thai and Mullum Neville crosses i’m gonna grow indoors. I also have the
Mullum x MangoWidowMullum.

 

[Donald Mallard]

Give it a rest Donald your full of it what i dont get is how your still a moderator and are you going to send me a nasty Reputation message today lol.

too much text for you to interpret ?

the easy out is just say im full of it i guess ,
its one of your modes of operation ive noted when u cant think of how to answer the person ,
and have no reasoning for the silly theories and thoughts u have .


you were a moderator at mr nice forums remember
if you can be one , anyone can ...



btw , im the moderator in the aussie forums ,
in all other forums im just a dude like everyone else ...

 

[HAZENACIOUS]

...I mean, would you have the same quality progeny if the father was a happy man/plant living in peace and freedom or if the father was subdued to severe stress or torturing? This is epigenetics...

This is a complicated question, with a lot of assumptions that I would like to dispell.

I studied epigenetics, and it doesn't quite work like that, if anything the epigenetic response to stress is positive, for the most part; the organism becomes stronger to face adversity.


I have heard a lot of presumptuous and brazenly false speculation floating around on the boards regarding epigenetics. For example I have heard people postulate that if you have a small rootbound plant for a mother you could mess up the Plant in the next generation, and it will epigenetically learn to be smaller, this is superstition not science, epigenetics does not work like this. The plants size is genetically determined, it doesn't learn to be smaller, it will grow to whatever size it's environment will allow for. Epigenetics involves an adaptive response to environmental pressure.
I breed indoors in part for outdoor cultivation. My hazes are giants, they will get 20 feet if they have the environment, and the physical size of the mother clone is irrelevant.

And plants do react epigenetically to proper stress, generally they become stronger to face adversity. However too much stress or the wrong kind of stress can cause deleterious cell mutation, which can harm a clone line, while healthy stress actually illicits a positive epigenetic response.

 

[Elmer Bud]

I have grown pure sats at 18/6 for veg from the start of indoors never saw a plant hermaphrodite in flower.

If we are talking sativas some sativa lines can express Three sex's at the start of sex you will see male / hermaphrodites/ female.Once you cull the hermaphrodite the male will stay male and female will stay female.

I have seen people in icmag recently use a hermaphrodite to pollinate a female because they found no male in a set sat line big mistake.

If the Hermaphrodites are showing up at sex then its genetic.

I was thinking about bushys seeds herming and i wounder if there has been cross pollination out doors were he grows.

I know a few things from reading he was playing with hermied that were not related to Nevil or Kangas work.

Blueberry ???
Was bred with herm males . DJ thought it was a good thing .

Now Blueberry must be one of the most widely grown strains . Why not more herms ?

Strong possibility of herms pollinating Bushweeds females . I grew seed from him years ago they hermed . When I told him he said - Oh there was a herm in that plot .

 

[harvestreaper]

interesting reading ,,i recently used two males that showed slight hermi traits to make a small amount of f2s on a thai line ,,i used them because im unaware if this is normal for that particular genepool ,,the females were not hermi at all , as i go thru more seeds ill see myself if hermi males are unusual for the line currently i have no idea ,,when producing seeds for self its no problem at all to experiment on the other hand if your selling to public i see it as complete different situation that could understandably create concerns

 

[@hempy]

Blueberry ???
Was bred with herm males . DJ thought it was a good thing .

Now Blueberry must be one of the most widely grown strains . Why not more herms ?

Strong possibility of herms pollinating Bushweeds females . I grew seed from him years ago they hermed . When I told him he said - Oh there was a herm in that plot .

Yep seen him post and say some hermied like nimbin purple and a few like the Loas Gypsy Thai and more threw the years.

As for DJ using a hermie to breed with i dont know but i wouldn't i would search for a true male to breed with over a female that way you stand a chance of cleaning up the line.

You use a hermie you get hermies.

 

[rolandomota]

Dj said to use if that's the only option just to clarify don't go and encourage Hermie prone breeding it might show up in a huge way in f2 even the original f1 or s1 etc

 

[@hempy]

interesting reading ,,i recently used two males that showed slight hermi traits to make a small amount of f2s on a thai line ,,i used them because im unaware if this is normal for that particular genepool ,,the females were not hermi at all , as i go thru more seeds ill see myself if hermi males are unusual for the line currently i have no idea ,,when producing seeds for self its no problem at all to experiment on the other hand if your selling to public i see it as complete different situation that could understandably create concerns

I have seen plenty of Thai lines that show zero hermies but i have seen Thai lines and other pure sativas that show 3 sex's at sexing Male / hermaphrodites / Females.

The male will stay male and female will stay female all you need to do is ID and cull the hermies.

You can over time clean them up and limit or even stop seeing Hermaphrodites showing up at sexing by inbreeding male to female.

 

[harvestreaper]

I have seen plenty of Thai lines that show zero hermies but i have seen Thai lines and other pure sativas that show 3 sex's at sexing Male / hermaphrodites / Females.

The male will stay male and female will stay female all you need to do is ID and cull the hermies.

You can over time clean them up and limit or even stop seeing Hermaphrodites showing up at sexing by inbreeding male to female.

i dont doubt what youve seen and understand what your saying but that still dont tell me weather id get a non hermi male from my seedbatch,,these seeds were harvested outdoor in laos then re grown under lights in uk lot of stress imo so i do think the parameters can be stetched a lil when dealing with landraces if i later get a no hermi male ill use it and discard the hermi males offspring but until then im glad i reprod some seeds out of the 4 females i have

 

[@hempy]

How are plants stressed if grown correctly indoors ?.

You have a controlled environment no pests no weeds no adverse weather.

How many seed have you grown out and how many female and hermies you found so far clearly you have not found a male yet.

You found clean females so you should find males to with the right number of seed.

 

[Donald Mallard]

How are plants stressed if grown correctly indoors ?.

You have a controlled environment no pests no weeds no adverse weather.

How many seed have you grown out and how many female and hermies you found so far clearly you have not found a male yet.

You found clean females so you should find males to with the right number of seed.

I think its as others have already mentioned the longer days may cause some issues as its not natural for plants from the tropics to have such long days ,
obviously not all , but the odd one perhaps might find the extra long days stressful ...

Its postulated that in their natural setting with the right hours there are less issues with them ...

 

[harvestreaper]

How are plants stressed if grown correctly indoors ?.

You have a controlled environment no pests no weeds no adverse weather.

How many seed have you grown out and how many female and hermies you found so far clearly you have not found a male yet.

You found clean females so you should find males to with the right number of seed.

you overestimate me mate they had some heat issuess an pests ,,but my point on stress was more taking a sungrown landrace and growing it under lights very different spectrum to what they used to what degree of stress that has on them i dont know same with humidity an any other environmental factors theyve been bred in for generations any of those criteria changing could create stress but hey im just assuming ,as for hermis i dont think for a minute all the hermis are found or even searched for in huge fields in laos they probly been bred in to the line for generations ,as for the number of seeds i absolutely agree with you i only grew out 7 had 6 sprout 4 females two hermi males or males with few white hairs so of course plenty more to try but then i did not say it was typical its simply what i got out of what i had and may just prove a waste of time if regular males are found later ive already posted the small number i had in mango thai thread ill be very happy to find a regular male in a small number off seeds i was expecting hermi females if anything not male dominant versions