Broad Mites?

[Last stand]

I wish there was a thread like this for cyclamen because they seem particularly difficult to deal with. First if you have cyclamen do not look for eggs under leaves like you would for broads, they'll be in and around the new growth tucked safely away in the darkest areas. They will only lay eggs on the bigger leaves if theres a huge outbreak and by then your plant would be on death's doorstep. The mites will be in the new growth shoots and sometimes near the top around the stamen and on the stalk. I've been doing a lot of research and it seems cyclamen damage can linger on for weeks, in my case maybe even a month after relative control has been achieved, even with 325mg of aspirin per gallon. I picked my worst plant and dissected it under the scope, I made a 4 hour video of which I took pictures of the most suspect looking things. Most are probably the kind of trichs you see on the non flowering leaves without stalks called Capitate-Sessile. Theres also some brown looking things from time to time but they don't seem too consistent and are probably just some coco remnants left over from repotting. I'm super paranoid because all was looking great until I flipped the other day. Most screen shots are between 180-200x zoom but some may be as low as 160 or as high as 220 so have a look please and tell me what you think, thanks!

Most of these pics are in or around the newest shoots that were coming in light green. This plant was dissected so I could get video that would otherwise be impossible without damage.

 

[RetroGrow]

I wish there was a thread like this for cyclamen because they seem particularly difficult to deal with. First if you have cyclamen do not look for eggs under leaves like you would for broads,

That's wrong. Cyclamen lay eggs under the leaves, just like broads, and they should be treated just like broads. I see nothing in your pictures. No mites or eggs. Only trichomes.
This thread covers cyclamen and broads, as they are essentially the same.

 

[Last stand]

That's wrong. Cyclamen lay eggs under the leaves, just like broads, and they should be treated just like broads. I see nothing in your pictures. No mites or eggs. Only trichomes.
This thread covers cyclamen and broads, as they are essentially the same.

I respect your opinion but I've seen a great deal of conflicting info on this. One thing I've noticed is a lot of people use the term broad mite when talking about cyclamens, even in some university research. One thing for sure is cyclamen toxins seem to linger a bit longer. I have a friend in town from cali that had broads, he's been helping me for the last two to three weeks and he cant figure out what the hells going on either. We dissected a whole plant that got symptoms right at flip top to bottom roots and all and nothing to be found, it's like the toxins reactivated or something. I cant really explain it but this is like nothing I've ever seen in my almost 20 years growing.

 

[Some old dude]

Test

Test

I respect your opinion but I've seen a great deal of conflicting info on this. One thing I've noticed is a lot of people use the term broad mite when talking about cyclamens, even in some university research. One thing for sure is cyclamen toxins seem to linger a bit longer. I have a friend in town from cali that had broads, he's been helping me for the last two to three weeks and he cant figure out what the hells going on either. We dissected a whole plant that got symptoms right at flip top to bottom roots and all and nothing to be found, it's like the toxins reactivated or something. I cant really explain it but this is like nothing I've ever seen in my almost 20 years growing.

Do a "blind test". Take a clone of plant with problems (if you can). And plant it in different medium, feed it different nutes, and grow it in a different room with different light source or put it outside.Retrow is rite about broads and cyclamens.And I see no sign of mites in those pictures either.

 

[RetroGrow]

I respect your opinion but I've seen a great deal of conflicting info on this. One thing I've noticed is a lot of people use the term broad mite when talking about cyclamens, even in some university research. One thing for sure is cyclamen toxins seem to linger a bit longer. I have a friend in town from cali that had broads, he's been helping me for the last two to three weeks and he cant figure out what the hells going on either. We dissected a whole plant that got symptoms right at flip top to bottom roots and all and nothing to be found, it's like the toxins reactivated or something. I cant really explain it but this is like nothing I've ever seen in my almost 20 years growing.

Let's see the links with the "conflicting info".
Let's see the scientific proof that toxins linger longer in cyclamens.
Your pictures are showing nothing but sessile trichome heads.
Broads & cyclamens are basically the same thing, as has been pointed out before.
If you choose not to believe that, maybe you should start a new thread on cyclamen mites, and document some of your assertions.
Why are you dissecting your plants looking for broad or cyclamen mites?
If you have them, the eggs are pretty obvious if you are scoping them, and they will be found on the undersides of leaves whether broad or cyclamen.

 

[HellaFella420]

If you want extreme organic, you might try rosemary oil in water, that seems to work well for the SNS17 crowd.

Lol, K+

 

[Last stand]

I don't have scientific info on the toxins lingering it's really just a theory that me and my friend (who had broads) came up with. My plants looked great before flip and I do at least 1 hour of scope work per day, no eggs no nothing for weeks maybe a month. As for eggs being harder to spot theres a ton of info on them being more tucked away than broads but here's one link
http://www.hort.uconn.edu/ipm/greenhs/htms/cyclmites.htm
Theres also quit a bit of info on them hiding out in shoots and buds whereas broads tend to be in more exposed areas.
http://www.everwoodfarm.com/Pest_In..._Mites?zenid=8ead54e9f2ce30979e27363adb9ae0aa
I'm not trying to argue or anything, you've contributed more than me in terms of solutions but there has to be an explanation for the toxic symptoms appearing. The only thing I can think of besides lingering toxin is some tucked away eggs hatch feed once then die.

 

[RetroGrow]

I don't have scientific info on the toxins lingering it's really just a theory that me and my friend (who had broads) came up with. My plants looked great before flip and I do at least 1 hour of scope work per day, no eggs no nothing for weeks maybe a month. As for eggs being harder to spot theres a ton of info on them being more tucked away than broads but here's one link
http://www.hort.uconn.edu/ipm/greenhs/htms/cyclmites.htm
Theres also quit a bit of info on them hiding out in shoots and buds whereas broads tend to be in more exposed areas.
http://www.everwoodfarm.com/Pest_In..._Mites?zenid=8ead54e9f2ce30979e27363adb9ae0aa
I'm not trying to argue or anything, you've contributed more than me in terms of solutions but there has to be an explanation for the toxic symptoms appearing. The only thing I can think of besides lingering toxin is some tucked away eggs hatch feed once then die.

That article is ten years old, and is total BS. They are not talking about cannabis. Cyclamen mites lay their eggs on the underside of the leaves, exactly as broads. I've seen thousands of them under the leaves, because that's where they lay them. Both broads and cyclamens avoid the light, and both prefer to hide out in the new growth, which is also the part of the plant they prefer to eat. Essentially they are the same.

 

[bubbler720]

Caution

Caution

Well I really feel like crying right now, I wish I had broad mites because these cyclamens are showstoppers. All my stuff looked pretty good after a total shutdown cleaning, all new equipment and new seeds. Two weeks in they showed up but I got to spraying avid, pylon,forbid, akari, and a few days ago a kontos drench. .....I have a dino lite scope but I cant find anything even between 200-220x magnification. I have 100,000 Neoseiulus californicus sachets coming but I really feel helpless and desperate. Gonna try heat today and I'd like to try the safer sulfur but thats a fungicide and I don't know if the biowars doing it's thing.

This story sounds similar to mine. You may not have cyclamen or broad mites, or any mites at all. It drove me nuts that the plants weren't growing right and I scoped these oval things that look like cyclamen eggs, yet I hadn't seen an adult mite in months. I contacted the local university extension plant entomologist. It can be a sensitive issue for them so approach it carefully. After sending samples what I thought were cyclamen eggs I found out from the pro they were not eggs or trichomes. What I was scoping - pics below - were 'natural phenomenon of growth... too round and big for cyclamen... and with that high number occurrences an adult should have been seen.'

Bam! game changer. Relief but also frustration. A few months prior I had also lost crops and all genetics, and started fresh from seed. I was nuking the new genetics which was causing part of the problem with the plants not looking right, but there were other problems making the plants not grow right that were environmental, complicated further by the huge jolt cyclamen had recently caused me and complications from starting from seed.

The good news is I don't have cyclamen or broad or any mite. The entomologist told me after the regime of avid/pylon/akari/sirocco I had applied no mite on earth could still be living. The deeper I dig into the environmental issues (pythium)- and treating those the better the ladies are looking.

Lesson Learned: the $$ arsenal I put forth killed all the mites - even in the garden from a few months ago - but b/c of the toxins the Tarsonemid mite (broad or cyclamen) infects the plant with, I had to trash those genetics. I did everything right by starting from scratch - but when I wasn't scoping adult mites after several miticide apps, I should have stopped the miticides until I saw an adult, and focused on finding environmental/nutritional problems that were making the plants unhealthy.

Hope this helps...

here's the pic of what I thought were cyclamen eggs which ARE NOT cyclamen or Broad mite eggs:

 

[RetroGrow]

The entomologist told me after the regime of avid/pylon/akari/sirocco I had applied no mite on earth could still be living

Except the ones that re-enter the room, and ones that are in the room, hiding out all over the place.
Obviously, that entemologist never had to deal with them in a cannabis grow room.
IMO, you are just wasting your time looking for mites, as they are hiding out, and the eggs are much easier to see. If there are eggs, something is laying them. I have seen thousands and thousands of eggs, but only a handful of mites.
As far as the toxins, aspirin almost eliminates the effects of them, so if you use aspirin from the beginning, that issue will be mitigated.

 

[Thomas Paine]

If your plants were damaged from BM's, then the plant may be showing signs of stress from not growing enough when they were being damaged - dying roots in stagnant medium, salt build-up and so forth.

After killing the mites, I would recommend doing a flush and then using a good enzyme product like Cannazyme or Hygrozyme to clean up all the dead roots and any rot.

Also, the plants will continue to show Tarsonemid mite damage for weeks after treatment.

You can alleviate some of the damage with Retro's aspirin treatment (325mp per gallon)

-------------

Also - BM's and Cyclamen mites are from the Tarsonemid family. You can find more info when using the correct term in a search. Broad Mite is an American name given to these things. Another name is "Thread-footed mite".

Tarsonemid mites (family Tarsonemidae)

-------------

One of the things I did, and continue to do, that i didn't mention is I asked God for help. Seriously.

I wasn't handling the stress well and I was at wits end. Very very depressed... I was not in a good place.

I had no where else to go, and finally just "gave in" and got down on my knees and asked for help.

I continue to pray every day, now more just to give thanks (adoration) rather than just asking for help (petitioning).

If nothing else, it helped my mindset and gave me that extra strength to make it to this point.

 

[bubbler720]

Except the ones that re-enter the room, and ones that are in the room, hiding out all over the place.

It is this kind of frantic over-reaction that is making Tarsonemid mites a bigger problem than they are. If there are broad or cyclamen mites in the garden the protocol to get rid of them has been well documented.

Obviously, that entemologist never had to deal with them in a cannabis grow room.

Yes, we should discredit the professional who has published reports on broad and cyclamen mites because we know more. Fucking kidding me, right? This isn't their profession or anything and cannabis is certainly a one-of-a-kind plant that is so different than anything else the University entomologist definitely doesn't know what he's talking about. Discredit the pros in favor of the much preferred paranoid bro science, making the problem bigger than it actually is.

As far as the toxins, aspirin almost eliminates the effects of them, so if you use aspirin from the beginning, that issue will be mitigated.

If I had caught this from the beginning, 5 months ago, and sprayed the moms with avid/forbid/3x neem as Storm recommended, and fog and clean the hell out of the garden, they would have been gone, leave the the aspirin in the bottle where it belongs. I didn't catch them in the beginning - when I did the infection was severe. I'm open minded and I tried heat and aspirin. They probably helped. But aspirin did not save my duds or make new cuttings that rooted grow. The toxins had destroyed the plant and its genetics. The way out, as has been documented when the problem is this severe, is to trash badly infected plants, clean thoroughly and get new genetics = start from scratch. Do this and there will be no mites 'hiding out all over the place' like some fictional bullshit alien attack force - really bro, lay off the science theater 2000.

We're all trying to help one another be successful - to produce great smoke and get over the obstacles like broad/cyclamen mites. I've gotten past the problem I had with the help of some good peeps here. Now I'm giving back by sharing what worked for me, which is all I wanted from this thread when I was in hell. Keep it positive by posting what worked for you. Stop discrediting the pros and reinforcing paranoid bullshit bro science - it doesn't help anyone.

 

[RetroGrow]

I'll take my "bro" over your "pro" anyday.
You caught them too late. Your "bad".
The damage was already done. No one's fault and no miracle cure if you let your infestation go unnoticed for that long.
But, if you were paying attention to the many photos in the thread, you wouldn't be sending anything to an entomologist.
What for? BMs & Cyclamens are easily identified by their eggs. All you have to do is scope the undersides of leaves. No need for an entomologist at all. Can't imagine why people are still having problems identifying eggs if they read the thread.
So I'll take my experience with cannabis/BMs over your "pro".

 

[Some old dude]

"Bro"

"Bro"

I'll take my "bro" over your "pro" anyday.
You caught them too late. Your "bad".
The damage was already done. No one's fault and no miracle cure if you let your infestation go unnoticed for that long.
But, if you were paying attention to the many photos in the thread, you wouldn't be sending anything to an entomologist.
What for? BMs & Cyclamens are easily identified by their eggs. All you have to do is scope the undersides of leaves. No need for an entomologist at all. Can't imagine why people are still having problems identifying eggs if they read the thread.
So I'll take my experience with cannabis/BMs over your "pro".

It's just a choice "Bro Science technique" poison free healthy growing. Or, toxic neuro pathway carcinogenic proven adulterated poison ingestion. Very proud "Bro science technique" grower here. I feel sorry for those who can't master the healthy option. It's just a choice in the end though I hold no ill will to those who choose to use trans- laminar poisons both techniques work one is markedly easier than the other. For those that say the healthy option did not work for them thats ok I have my proof and have shown pictures here. My experience with BM's and the results are all I need.And I would not have been able to solve this life changing problem without this forum So thank you all. Just as an extra note. Just as the "organic" option (and I know the word "organic" causes some arguments here) but it's just a way of saying poultry or meat or produce grown without artificial hormones or chemical synthesized growth and pest carcinogenic additives demand a higher cost to produce so will this medicine and demand a higher cost for the consumer. In my humble opinion a growing number of people will want and seek out this option. All the best people...!

 

[siftedunity]

ive actually found that mite are actually pretty frail. avid and forbid foe the win though, and gutting the rooms etc. retro, didn't you say your mites kept returning??

 

[oceangrownkush]

lookin into it now Sunset.

this kontos seems to be the BUSINESS!

from http://www.rsc.org/chemistryworld/Issues/2007/November/NewInsecticidesGetReadyForMarket.asp

"Bayer's latest insecticide is also a member of a known insecticide family, structurally modified to boost its properties. Where Bayer's first two tetronic acid-based insecticides, spirodiclofen and spiromesifen [Forbid/Judo], coat the leaf surface, new family member spirotetramat is actually taken up by the plant.

The compound is then carried around the plant, including into roots and newly-forming shoots, giving sucking insect pest like aphids and whitefly an unpleasant surprise. The compounds work by inhibiting lipid biosysnthesis, affecting reproduction in adults and especially juveniles."

I've found Spirotetramat sold under the names... Kontos, Movento, and Ultor so far.

Kontos and Movento are 22.4% Spirotetramat while Ultor is 14.5% Spirotetramat.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

aaaaaand here's the answer we're all looking for...

i believe the panda land he is referring to is Alibaba.

lol chinese manufacturers selling this stuff by the kilo. 99% pure Spirotetramat powder... $50-100 per kilo.

+1, China is the shit. Alibaba, Tradekey, ect.. Those are the two big ones I know of, Alibaba is my favorite because of the escrow option..

 

[Seahawk junkie]

You guys need quite growing if you keep getting em! The entire state of California is infested you guys gonna ship that crap all over the world? It has already spread into the food supply practically every grower in Chico and grass valley have em in/out! Make no mistake this is terrorism who's the clown who suggested non botanist could grow commercial MJ? This is ornamental horticulture either you have the background r u don't! DispencaryS r going down!

 

[Ghudda]

What have you folks been doing to completely eradicate them?
Are there any natural plants or herbs that deter these pests? something you can plant outside your grow for example

 

[Seahawk junkie]

The problem is the growers it has finally caught up with everyone! This has been a dirty little secret that has finally overtaken the abilities of the world wide community! The dispencaries are gonna bite the dust they clearly have known for a while and continue to encourage sales of contaminated bud! California dispencaries do not want clean weed they prefer to earn higher profits selling contaminated weed. Call your congrassman dept of Ag, City councilman. Better to tell the truth than to let the anti MJ folks run with this.

 

[Some old dude]

Yup.

Yup.

The problem is the growers it has finally caught up with everyone! This has been a dirty little secret that has finally overtaken the abilities of the world wide community! The dispencaries are gonna bite the dust they clearly have known for a while and continue to encourage sales of contaminated bud! California dispencaries do not want clean weed they prefer to earn higher profits selling contaminated weed. Call your congrassman dept of Ag, City councilman. Better to tell the truth than to let the anti MJ folks run with this.

The good folks here and elsewhere that depend on the industry for bringing this into the light .It will either be by the industry itself (and this is always better) or what the state or fed government does when the toxins start hurting people. Fortunately the canna industry unlike the Big tobacco is not in the business of promoting a product that by itself is cancer causing or a neuro toxin or physically addictive the way the 260 plus chemicals that are added to tobacco are.It's best to get people in compliance on our own rather than let Big pharma or the state or the feds force it. Nice observation seahawk. People can get back to arguing about crap I'm otta here. Saying people have been using the toxins they are now using or worse for decades (Im old) will not bait me back into this discussion as that argument is full of giant holes.