Breeding out hermie traits

[Asentrouw]

I had some grows with some pure Laotian landraces, which were quite hermie prone. The worst cases I cut, but the rest I grew out because I don't mind a few seeds in the buds. It seems to come with the unworked Thai genetics. As a result some other plants (potpourri/orient express/kotton kush/herijuana) were ofcourse also fertilized and produced quite some seeds.

I think these can be some interesting crosses and I hate to throw out seeds.

So I was wondering is it possible to breed out the hermaphrodite traits?

And if so, what would be the best and most realistic strategy to do so?


Also I wonder does this trait always lives on in its offspring?

In the past I used some Durban hermie seed in crosses. Most of the offspring and outcrosses were really stable and did not show any herma traits at all.

Only exception was one later outcross with a moliotiko landrace strain, where literally all the offspring were heavy hermies. So it seems to me it is still in there somewhere in the genetics or it was just a very unlucky cross.

The big difference with the Loatian strains is that the Durban hermed out of stress, while with the Laos it seems to be a matter of genetics. So I'm not sure how that will be passed over to its offspring.

 

[Dime]

All you can do to breed them out is to use the ones with minimal herm tendencies and keep using less and less hermy prone plants in subsequent generations and look for stable ones to continue with but you may also lose qualities you cherish.

 

[troutman]

Won't be easy. It helps if You can grow many plants.
But keep selecting away from traits You don't like.

Good Luck.

 

[Rgd]

one would only keep a hermie if it was a special plant..
I dunno about “breeding” it out
but if you do manage.. you have a different plant now

 

[Lester Beans]

Landraces are tough because they are removed from their optimal environment. They need to adjust for a few generations indoors or in their new outdoor environment. It can be done.

Grow out as many seeds as you can. More plants the better. Select plants that have the fewest to no hermaphrodite tendencies. Make next gen with as many plants as possible. Cull hermie plants. Make next gen....rinse and repeat.

Your unintentional crosses sound very promising as well. Good luck with your project.

 

[Asentrouw]

Thanks for the answers.

I will grow some seeds out to see how they perform and take it from there. The rest of the genetics were stable, so I hope this will reduce the hermie tendencies already a bit. If it can be reduced in a few generations it might be a nice side project.

If not, it will ptobably become bird feed, as its probably more usefull to try to stabilize the pure Laos itself or simply switch to a more worked strain with simular effects.

 

[VerdantGreen]

You should read what @GMT posted here about sex determination on SE Asia lines being X to Autosome rather than XY.... it would explain a lot.

Lemon Thai

Where are we? Ah yeah ok, this is general forum, I can take this on a tangent here. So, how layman? I'll go really simplistic, not to patronise but so anyone reading in the future can also follow. So in cannabis, sex is determined in two ways, depending on the evolutionary path that the...

www.icmag.com

 

[Asentrouw]

You should read what @GMT posted here about sex determination on SE Asia lines being X to Autosome rather than XY.... it would explain a lot.

Lemon Thai

Where are we? Ah yeah ok, this is general forum, I can take this on a tangent here. So, how layman? I'll go really simplistic, not to patronise but so anyone reading in the future can also follow. So in cannabis, sex is determined in two ways, depending on the evolutionary path that the...

www.icmag.com

Thanks for the link. I will look into it. First glance it seems to be a bit above my head as I'm far from a breeder, but rather a hobbyist pollen chucker.

Really need to dig into it and probably need to read it a few times to grasp it. As I understand from this some SE Asian lines are simply lacking a Y-chromosome - so basically is always intersex?

But how that translates into outcrosses with lines that do contain Y-chromosomes?

 

[VerdantGreen]

it's worth reading those posts and i think there are a few links, some of it over my head too but the way it works is fairly simple in some ways. it doesn;t necessarily make it easier to breed out intersex traits but it gives a way of understanding what happens. GMT explains it in a way that its pretty easy to get the gist of it.
VG

 

[VerdantGreen]

But how that translates into outcrosses with lines that do contain Y-chromosomes?

by causing a lot of potential trouble when the two collide... i can't explain it better than it was explained in the posts in that thread and a few other posts if you hunt them down.

 

[VerdantGreen]

If you found some females you liked in the Laotion line and then selfed them and grew out the S1s, it would help you know how many of the sex-det 1 genes were 'Hiding' in that female and then you could use those for crosses.
VG

 

[Asentrouw]

by causing a lot of potential trouble when the two collide... i can't explain it better than it was explained in the posts in that thread and a few other posts if you hunt them down.

Certainly going to read through the posts.

It does explain that all the plants had some "hermie" traits; even the most female ones had some bananas hanging out, mostly around the internodes. Others had full blown male balls growing out of the female buds.

It makes sense, if its in the genetics you probably just breed the intersex trait in it, so it will always be there to pop up when you don't need it.

I guess the only way to really find out is just to grow some out to see what happens. I don't mind to experiment a little. Worst case scenario I have some seeded bud for hash and it ends there as bird seed.

 

[GMT]

But how that translates into outcrosses with lines that do contain Y-chromosomes?

In asking that question, you are ahead of 90% of the game. No one will touch that subject, but, here's a hint, have you ever seen any threads with titles like, I found a male in my feminised seed? Well, no they didn't lol.

 

[Boob McNoob]

Yggdrasil?

 

[troutman]

Using the same photoperiod experienced by Landraces does minimize hermies.
Equatorial Sativas don't get 18 hours of daylight in their natural grow areas.
I usually use 13 -14 hours max to veg with them if I do it at all these days.
With pure Indicas I use no more than 17 hours to veg these days.

 

[Daily Vitamins]

I had some grows with some pure Laotian landraces, which were quite hermie prone. The worst cases I cut, but the rest I grew out because I don't mind a few seeds in the buds. It seems to come with the unworked Thai genetics. As a result some other plants (potpourri/orient express/kotton kush/herijuana) were ofcourse also fertilized and produced quite some seeds.

I think these can be some interesting crosses and I hate to throw out seeds.

So I was wondering is it possible to breed out the hermaphrodite traits?

And if so, what would be the best and most realistic strategy to do so?


Also I wonder does this trait always lives on in its offspring?

In the past I used some Durban hermie seed in crosses. Most of the offspring and outcrosses were really stable and did not show any herma traits at all.

Only exception was one later outcross with a moliotiko landrace strain, where literally all the offspring were heavy hermies. So it seems to me it is still in there somewhere in the genetics or it was just a very unlucky cross.

The big difference with the Loatian strains is that the Durban hermed out of stress, while with the Laos it seems to be a matter of genetics. So I'm not sure how that will be passed over to its offspring.

Yeah, you can breed out those traits start with the ones with the least amount of intersex traits. Go from there than the next generation the ones with the least amount of intersex traits again you could do anything with ganja if you have enough time

 

[Asentrouw]

Using the same photoperiod experienced by Landraces does minimize hermies.
Equatorial Sativas don't get 18 hours of daylight in their natural grow areas.
I usually use 13 -14 hours max to veg with them if I do it at all these days.
With pure Indicas I use no more than 17 hours to veg these days.

I doubt it was enviromental factors. They are always started 12-12 or less straight into flowering due to limitations in space. Also this was the only strain with these issues at the time.

Could be wrong ofcourse as I'm not in a equatorial climate, but usually I don't encounter these issues with other pure sativa's and landraces I tried. So it seems something genetic to me and I read a lot of people encouter this problem with unworked Thai strains.

But as I said, for me this is not by definition a problem, as I don't mind some seeds in the bud. As long as it stays managable ofcourse.

 

[Daily Vitamins]

I would say it’s genetic. This is an issue with a lot of land race genetics . But if you like it and want to continue it you can breed with it but it’s some work . Not out of the realm of possibilities at all just work . All depends on how much you care to I guess .

 

[igrowone]

a reliable method to breed out intersex would be impressive indeed
there are deep mysteries here, the intersex trait can come and go mysteriously
you seem to have experienced a few mysteries of your own

 

[funkyhorse]

Where are we? Ah yeah ok, this is general forum, I can take this on a tangent here. So, how layman? I'll go really simplistic, not to patronise but so anyone reading in the future can also follow.

So in cannabis, sex is determined in two ways, depending on the evolutionary path that the individual lines followed. As in all species' deviations, historically these tended to be geographically separated, such as African and Indian elephants having different ears etc.

In the south eastern area of Asia, you have what is referred to as an X to autosome, sex determining system. In Pakistan India Afghanistan regions, you have the Active Y, system.

Active Y is what we all know and think of in terms of boys and girls. Girls having XX chromosomes as boys having XY chromosomes. So the presence of a Y, determines a male

In X to autosome lines, there is no Y. There are only XX plants. The difference between the generation of female flowers and male flowers, lies in the other chromosomes. This is done by the number of copies of a sex determining gene. I'll give a very basic and simplistic analogy.

If you have two pillow cases with 100 tennis balls in each, and you want to make a third pillow case with 100 tennis balls in by taking half of the balls from each pillow case, you can see this is the same process as breeding two anythings together. Now if each pillow case has mainly yellow tennis balls in it, but one has 8 red ones and the other has 16 red ones inside, we have a difference. If we take tennis balls at random from each pillowcase, then this new pillowcase will be filled with mainly yellow tennis balls, but have a random chance of gaining somewhere between 0 and 24 red tennis balls. The average red count being 12 red balls.

Now in X to autosome systems, there will be a critical number of these genes that will determine if the plant will grow male flowers or not. This gene is referred to as sex-det 1. If the number of copies of this gene is above the critical limit, then these XX girls will grow only male flowers. These will be perceived as boys, however they aren't boys, they are girls with a sufficient sex-det 1count, to express as males. If the sex-det 1 count is below a certain limit, then these XX girls will only express female flowers. However when the sex-det 1 count hovers around this critical limit, you get intersexed flowers being produced.

This is not due to faulty genes as it would be in active Y lines, that can simply be removed from the gene pool, but are a direct result of the system of determination used.

The only way to remove intersexed individuals from such a line, would be to reduce the count of Sex-det 1 genes to 0. This would of course leave the line feminised forever.

Now go back to the pillow cases, by selecting pillow cases with the least red balls in them, and breeding them together, using artificial means, we reduce both the average and the potential range of the number of red tennis balls in the new pillow cases. However if we start breeding a pillow case with red balls below the critical number, (plants that show only female flowers), and pillow cases with lots of red balls (plants that show exclusively male flowers), then we may be increasing the average red ball (sex-det 1) count above the upper limit to show exclusively female flowers, and in turn increase the number of intersexed plants in the offspring.
You will always get the standard deviation curve from the offspring, with plants with low counts of the male flower genes, and plants with the highest count being in limited numbers, at each end of the graph, and with the majority of examples being in-between the two extreme groups averaging out towards the middle, in what is referred to as a standard deviation curve.

This means that by using "males" in x to autosome lines, you are increasing the average count of sex-det 1 genes present in all the offspring. By reversing a female and pollinating either itself or another low count female, you are reducing the average count of sex-det 1 genes.
One way increases the intersexed individuals in the next generation, and the other way reduces it.

Hopefully I pretty much covered that there.

Master
Gary Linecker of cannascience, always scoring goals and taking to the common people in common people language
I grow thais I dont know shit about science, I always hated botany and I copied exams at school. I honestly cant believe I like it today

Well, thanks to your post I am understanding what happened in the progeny of Northern Thai 2008
I found a third colour ball, a few orange balls came up as well in the P2 and it is called inbreeding depression. I grew this year 24 P2 plants and I will have enough intersex plants to try their potency compared with their sisters

This is not only in SE Asian lines. You can add 21st century paraguayan weed sharing this trait as well and I guess more landrace sativas
Now, I smoked all my life this kind of x autosome weed or whatever is called. I never smoked hybrids
I like the effects of this weed, the effect of hybrids is boring

The progeny of my favourite plant crossed with 3 different ¨males¨
From male 1 I got good productivity but the high sucked, potency lost. I dont care much about sex issues, I just cull the intersex if I dont have a place for them and if I do I let them live and finnish as much as they can without forming seed because I grow for own consumption and I want to smoke/vape this stuff

From male 2 who showed no pistils and was firm I got plants with clear lower productivity than moms and of course intersex. I am curing/drying them at the moment, thai weed needs long cure to be ready to smoke. Long cure means 6 months and orange balls too: inbreeding depression phenos at P2

From male 3 I got in general lower productivity and a couple of inbreeding depression phenos or orange balls
All foxtail

@GMT and @VerdantGreen
So science says the way to go is making S1s
Feminized seed for me is just for smoking. I found a lot of problems with the cuts taken from feminized plants, are totally unworth. Making seed with feminized is not reliable
I dont care about any of those problems
I care about:
what are the odds of obtaining from the S1 a similar high to mom?
What about productivity, will be the same as mom or less? If less what % less productivity?

If you are in the third world with no access to biotech, what method would you use in order to produce pollen from this female P1 plant and make S1s?

There are a lot of problems of inbreeding depression in all of the pure sativa lines, I dont know about indicas
When I say inbreeding depression I mean plants of 2,5 mt 3 mt tall plants with productivity of 10 grams or less
The sativa progeny seems to consistently be of lower quality of high and lower productivity than moms
Why is this happening and do you guys have any suggestion in order to avoid this?