Breeding discussion

[XyZ]

Nice move Dg!

GreatfulHead - you are confused man! Look for the last time...to make it clear what the point is...

simple fact is that every ibl from hybrid parents Has a Filial generation (for example the original blueberry is one of the inbred-lines till F4 from the pThai/affy cross) This detail may not be so important for a headless guy...but it plays a big role for me... i like to know the details. i dislike most that somebody agrees but in a way he is trying to convince me that details are not important ...ah and im wrong lol

...saying that 'an IBL can't be F-anything' is just POINTLESS...

your problem is that you don't wake up and get over it ...but rather starting some other things, where you are relative correct but again inaccurate and with potentially big mistakes on some points (for example the word strain All your fruity questions are not necessary and just waste of time, don't you think? you could simply agree earlier about the ibl & f connection, than we would roll a joint - and anything would be good.

ok but finally i think you agreed that every new ibl is F-something (of course)...so actually we are done here... the other things you started here are not relevant anymore. i will not argue with an ignorant head and no needs to be angry.

what counts is that other folks understand how the F descriptor is actually connected if creating a new IBL. i hope the grapepurched guy understands now that each created ibl has a of course a filial generation, that's a simple truth, even if this detail is not more so important once the ibl breeds true for all traits...but they all still have a filial generation - a technical fact...if you want it or not. **funny is just that the signature from the grape guy looks still comical (breeding for dummies...an IBL can't be F-anything...by head) lol* you like that?

 

[muddy waters]

whoa fellas ... you both have a point.

Inbred lines can result from an initial outcross (or several), h3ad is saying it happens at F5, XyZ seems to agree that is the process but claims Blueberry by DJ Short is an F4... not much difference, plus DJ Short claims a proprietary (read: not wanting to be scrutinized) secret backcrossing technique takes place between F2-F4 in some things he's written, so what is F4, 4 continuous filial generations, or does it include a backcross somewhere?

XyZ wants to be able to use the filial generation designation F# even when the parents (P1, P2, etc) come from within the same strain, as in his example of Deep Chunk Fn+2, in what would be an incross at this late stage in the game (and perhaps Deep Chunk was never hybridized or outcrossed to begin with?). I think most botanists refer to this with the designation IX or IX#.

To me it seems pretty arbitrary, because for example, in a typical cannabis breeding project, ibl x ibl, only the first reproduction is an outcross, and then, if the strain is developed to an inbred line, the rest of the reproductions are incrosses and/or backcrosses. So even by h3ad's "the corn way" definition, XyZ would be correct taking Blueberry (if it is an F4) and naming his reproduction F5, but if he then reproduced from his F5 generation, he should term that berry IX, etc.

I like to know conventions so I am interested as well, but the whole thing hardly seems worth ego-tripping about. Especially you two, more accomplished and dedicated than most, and noted excellent incrossers n outcrossers

 

[muddy waters]

...and lines can also be separated... witness that hhf is trying to take the trainwreck-derived line they developed and divide the green and blue phenotypes, this at F7 from the initial outcross of the TW clone to I believe WW, and subsequent backcrosses.

So if Trainwreck (a strain) becomes Trainwreck Blue and Trainwreck Green (two strains), how do we define P#s, and what do we designate a Blue to Green cross?

Just highlighting the arbitrary nature of it, to my mind at least.

Ooooh and I see that h3ad is not just an incrosser and outcrosser, but a backcrosser too. Nice one, h3ad.

I have developed, and am currently mastering, the technique called frontcrossing. That's where you look at the seeds you have, the seeds you want, the seeds you might be able to make, and sit there daydreaming about it because you can't grow right now, goddammit!

 

[word]

So, if i find seeds in a bag, and grow them out, am I a breeder?

I wouldnt think so, thats a GROWER.

Is OG Kush a ibl? How about Bubba Kush? Any incrossing anyone know about?

If you were to breed with unknown lineage parents, whats the point? Luck??

 

[Grat3fulh3ad]

Nice move Dg!

GreatfulHead - you are confused man! Look for the last time...to make it clear what the point is...

simple fact is that every ibl from hybrid parents Has a Filial generation (for example the original blueberry is one of the inbred-lines till F4 from the pThai/affy cross) This detail may not be so important for a headless guy...but it plays a big role for me... i like to know the details. i dislike most that somebody agrees but in a way he is trying to convince me that details are not important ...ah and im wrong lol

WRONG again... What about ibls which involved a parental or generational backcross? Hmmmmm? Which is most of the ibl lines out there, btw...
What does that do to your F-scheme, there?
Saying that an IBL can't be F-anything is correct, because inbred lines (actual inbred lines) are never referred to as F-anything... they're referred to as inbred lines... F4 is NOT IBL... your details are wrong... you're misusing the terms...

If the IBL is an IBL and consistently produces homozygous progeny, then it does not matter if it is the 6th generation from F1 or if it is the 100th... homozygous is homozygous... inbred lines are inbred lines... That's why real plant breeders never call inbred lines F-anything.

...saying that 'an IBL can't be F-anything' is just POINTLESS...

your problem is that you don't wake up and get over it ...but rather starting some other things, where you are relative correct but again inaccurate and with potentially big mistakes on some points (for example the word strain All your fruity questions are not necessary and just waste of time, don't you think? you could simply agree earlier about the ibl & f connection, than we would roll a joint - and anything would be good.

ok but finally i think you agreed that every new ibl is F-something (of course)...so actually we are done here... the other things you started here are not relevant anymore. i will not argue with an ignorant head and no needs to be angry.

what counts is that other folks understand how the F descriptor is actually connected if creating a new IBL. i hope the grapepurched guy understands now that each created ibl has a of course a filial generation, that's a simple truth, even if this detail is not more so important once the ibl breeds true for all traits...but they all still have a filial generation - a technical fact...if you want it or not. **funny is just that the signature from the grape guy looks still comical (breeding for dummies...an IBL can't be F-anything...by head) lol* you like that?

They do not all have a filial generation... most ibls involve some form of backcrosses... I only agree that the F-generations are STEPS on the way to an Ibl, so are BX generations... Ibls are ibls regardless of how many bx'd and incrossed generations there are in between...

I think everyone understands, from all the +rep I've gotten for my informative corrections of your ignorances... obviously everyone but the blind can see the reality of the situation...

 

[Grat3fulh3ad]

So, if i find seeds in a bag, and grow them out, am I a breeder?

NO

I wouldnt think so, thats a GROWER.

yup, but what's your point?

Is OG Kush a ibl?

NO

How about Bubba Kush?

NO

Any incrossing anyone know about?

NO

If you were to breed with unknown lineage parents, whats the point? Luck??

If the parent/parent's are generally accepted by a large portion of the growing community as superior, then it would be foolish not to attempt a breeding/stabilization project...

AND... I'm willing to revise my statement to "ibl's are not referred to as F-anything" instead of can't... Obviously they can be incorrectly referred to as anything you like... Go to an agri college and start asking the prof's... Hell call the local college biology dept... Don't take My word or XYZ's word on any of this, do your own homework, I have no fear of being proven wrong...

 

[jaykush]

wow.....just wow. breeding is so simple this has gotten out of hand.

imo an in-bred line is a stable line, no need for F-gen UNLESS you need to know how far its been worked (which still doesn't mean anything its just a number). say theres an ibl and i want to know how far its been worked, f4,f5,f7, even f12 for the sake of it, would all give me different answers. doesn't mean that any of them arent inbred lines or not. what matters is if the plants show mainly the same "phenos" or "traits" shall we say with very little if any variation in the following seeds. crossing that ibl with the same will just be the same nothing has changed except you went a bit further. if you cross that first ibl with a new and different ibl, then you get the true F1. and the process starts over again until you breed that into an ibl after working it for many generations until its stable.

as to the point of "strain" that seems more like an adopted term for cannabis breeding as it helps us keep track of whats in it, what its like, the high, the taste, they are all still plants and don't NEED a strain name but without it do you think cannabis would be the same (friend 1:man i smoked this f3 today it was good, friend 2: yea i got ahold of this f5 its kill) see my point?

not trying to argue just stating my point of view. and from experience.

 

[word]

If the parent/parent's are generally accepted by a large portion of the growing community as superior, then it would be foolish not to attempt a breeding/stabilization project...

No point, just trying to clear up things in my head.

From what i have experienced, superior is in the grower. Ive seen mexi brick bag seed grown/taste better than whats generally accepted by a large portion of the growing community as superior genetics.

But I applaud all breeders for there art and craft, especially those who do it for the love of the plant.

 

[XyZ]

WRONG again... What about ibls which involved a parental or generational backcross? Hmmmmm? Which is most of the ibl lines out there, btw...
What does that do to your F-scheme, there?

ah i'm wrong again, p00r me

a parental backcross is a parental backcross... simple
don't you remember that a example is there in your dummy scheme? whats your problem now Greathead?

"F4 is NOT IBL... your details are wrong"

~what are you talkin'about lol... F4 means obviously inbred 3 times (F1XF1, F2xF2, F3xF3)... and if the result is a homozygous line for the selected traits, than it's a true-breeding ibl... what else could it be, Greathead? my seeds from the blueberry now are the F5 generation and deep chunk is fn+2 ..and if i ask Sam, im sure he knows which "F" is his original skunk line. now please stop trying to convince me that my details are wrong. maybe they are in your eyes because you learned something from a corn doctor ...but that's not my problem... when i share my Cannabis seeds, i have to make clear sometimes what is what... and all understand F5 (ibl) and fn+2

That's why real plant breeders never call inbred lines F-anything."

~what's for you a real plant breeder and what is an unreal plant? do you have corn dreams?


*funny also that you ignored my part where i explain the inbreeding for the recessive trait's... is it over your head?
don't you understand that it's possible to create a homozygous line already in the F3? ...but homozygous (true-breeding) only for some well-selected traits and not necessary all at one time. it's possible to make an inbred-line already at F3, which will breed true in the next generations for most of the desired triats if the parents were chosen correctly. no matter what you do (even if you ignore - the filial generation is still there... if you want it or not... heady

i don't think you have much clue about actual inbreeding imo...but who cares... i have some nice crosses and you as well, it's much simple to make great hybrids in a short time. i don't care what you do and if you start an "ibl project" i would not have a problem how you label the P1 (p1, p2 or P1a,P1b...etc)...as long as you know what you are doing when inbreeding starts. what counts are the results right? blueberry is a result of inbreeding-a-line from the initial hybridization of the different parental strains. you disagree, GfulHead? have you ever grown the original blueberry? have you inbred the line more? how can You know she is not well-stabilized for the most desired traits?

If the IBL is an IBL and consistently produces homozygous progeny, then it does not matter if it is the 6th generation from F1 or if it is the 100th"

~stop pushing your self in sour~milk lol...
it may doesn't matter for you ...but it can be important for somebody else... get this in your head plz

a F1 hybrid that was 6 times inbred is an ibl at F7 (stable or not, it was obviously inbred ...and you still have this F in the ibl-system... what you said now; "6th generation from F1" are just longer words for the same meaning - F7

So your initial words; "an ibl can't be F-anything" are still Comical

 

[tempes~tos]

By the looks of yer posts and gallery,you never have bought any seeds anyway,so no biggie.Just grow some bud.

I have a big collection of seeds actually... i grow outdoors. i just started my 400 watt indoor... seeds havent popped yet. im starting with sadhu from mandala. i am a new grower but so what? i have done a lot of research before starting my indoor grow.

the way i understand IBL's is... the line is started with two plants that are crossed to make an F1 hybrid, the F1 plants are crossed again to reach F2, the plants of the same phenotype traits that are desired in the F2 line are crossed again to reach F3, and continued until it becomes a true breeding plant, slowly breeding out undesired traits, so any 2 plants from the line will produce fairly homogenous offspring. I thought it usually took about 6-7 generations to stabilize the strain, making it an IBL. or you can do it with less generations, like DJ Short did, by growing out a very large number of plants in each generation, and finding the exact same phenotypes. right?

 

[Grat3fulh3ad]

XYZ, you still don't understand a damn thing I've said, that's my only problem right now...
I'm not asking you any questions I don't already know how to answer...
The questions are simply there to prove to everyone else how blatantly mistaken you are...
OF course a parental backcross is a parental backcross... DUH... but if there is a backcross anywhere in the development of your "Example IBL" then you are completely ignorant trying to apply any F-designation...

OR are you really so lost on the subject to think you can end up with 'Deep Chunk Bx F5 IBLs'?

LMAO at your continued effort to make me seem wrong...

You still think F4s are IBLs??? LMAO again...

I'm soooo done with your ignorance.... come back after you've gotten an education...

 

[Grat3fulh3ad]

the way i understand IBL's is... the line is started with two plants that are crossed to make an F1 hybrid, the F1 plants are crossed again to reach F2, the plants of the same phenotype traits that are desired in the F2 line are crossed again to reach F3, and continued until it becomes a true breeding plant, slowly breeding out undesired traits, so any 2 plants from the line will produce fairly homogenous offspring. I thought it usually took about 6-7 generations to stabilize the strain, making it an IBL. or you can do it with less generations, like DJ Short did, by growing out a very large number of plants in each generation, and finding the exact same phenotypes. right?

That is one way, but it is a very common practice for breeders to backcross... This also shortens the number of generations needed to produce stable stock....

Once the plant is true breeding the Fdesignation is irrelevant... If all the seeds grow the same plants, then generation doesn't matter, and Once a backcross has taken place the F designations can no longer be used correctly.

The way I tend to work toward an IBL is through a series of heavily selected incrosses and backcrosses... In fact, experience has taught me that crossing out once, and then back once, will give you a very high percentage of ofspring which have the mother's desired traits.

 

[Raco]

Damn!! now I hate the term "IBL" more than before
Go ask a"proud" moroccan farmer (ie) wtf an IBL is
Some still keep their heirloom lines
They don´t backcross...

 

[Grat3fulh3ad]

Once again for all of you 'short bus' people...

the only way to have an F1 is to breed two unrelated (true breeding) IBLs.
The only way to have F2s is by breeding an F1 hybrid to itself or its siblings.
The only way to have F3s by breeding an F2 hybrid to itself or its siblings.
and so on.

If there is ever a backcross (parental or generational) in the breeding project, then you cannot call any of the further progeny F anything.

In a truebreeding IBL cultivar, all the seeds from breeding siblings will be more seeds for that ibl cultivar (selection notwithstanding).

Plants which have laws governing the patenting and distribution of seedlines.
Why should we be abandoning an established set or definitions?
"An inbred line must be a relatively true breeding strain of corn resulting from at least five successive generations of controlled self-fertilization or from back crossing to a recurrent parent with selection of its equivalent."

IBLs x IBLs don't make anything but IBLs (All IBLs in the sentence are the same cultivar)

 

[Grat3fulh3ad]

Damn!! now I hate the term "IBL" more than before
Go ask a"proud" moroccan farmer (ie) wtf an IBL is
Some still keep their heirloom lines
They don´t backcross...

NO, they aren't breeders... they're farmers making sure they have their seed for the next crop... but it illustrates my point well... Take two moroccan parents, breed them together, and you don't end up with moroccan F2s. You just end up with more moroccan.

 

[Raco]

I think that some are breeders as well...don´t you think?
I´ve said "heirlooms",not "bastardized genetics"

 

[Raco]

many hybrids can´t be stabilized
can the so-called IBL´s of today be line-bred further than the point they are when released?
Some can be inbred further,no doubt
How many generations (on average)?

 

[Grat3fulh3ad]

Yes, raco... but I meant not breeders in the conventional sense of producing new hybrids... They indeed to the very important breeding task of maintaining those land-races... The farmers of morocco aren't traditionally known for their indoor controlled pollination grows, but without a doubt I'm sure great care is taken with their seed crops...


I disagree when you say many hybrids can't be stabilized, though... It is more as you said 'need more work'... and I'm not implying at all that F5 hybrids all magically produce IBLs either... there was the condition of 'breeds relatively true' in the definition...
How many? depends on the hybrid...

http://www.plantanswers.com/garden_column/dec04/2.htm

 

[muddy waters]

h3ad you haven't enlightened us idiots how to label incross selections within a single IBL line over multiple generations?

 

[Grat3fulh3ad]

h3ad you haven't enlightened us idiots how to label incross selections within a single IBL line over multiple generations?

If the line is inbred, then they're All IBL seeds... how you label and keep up with the generations is up to you, probably it should depend on the particular selections you made from within the inbred line you're working... i.e. named for the phenotype(s) present, or some other designation to help you keep up with your work. I use different combinations of numbers names and letters to keep up with my breeding projects. When I label the seeds I will do so according to the most widely accepted usage of the language...

BTW, I am surprised you consider yourself an idiot... I was only talking about those who continued to argue a point I'd already proven...