Breakers getting hot and tripping...

[FCDobbs]

Everyone else is getting in on this so I guess I will too. Cam, so far about the only thing I see that you have right is the fact that it is alright to undersize the breaker. The purpose of a circuit breaker is to protect the wire that feeds the load (your ballasts). If your protect 40amp wire with a 30amp breaker it is just fine and NOT a code violation. Heat is generated by excess current or a fault, not being there it is difficult to know which one is your problem. A couple of questions for you.

1. Is this a new setup or have you used these parts before? If you have used the ballasts before with no problems it would indicate it’s not a load issue.
2. Do your circuit breakers screw into the busbar or snap in? If they screw in one may be cross threaded and the breaker may not be tight against the busbar. I have seen them glow red hot from that.
3. Did you bring a neutral and a ground to the sub-panel? If yes are the neutral and ground wire tied together at the sub-panel? They shouldn’t be.
4. There should be no load present on the neutral when all the lights are working.
5. did you take a separate black and white for each circuit or did you “share” a neutral between 2 circuits. If sharing try not sharing neutrals. Did you check to see if the neutral or ground wires are hot?
Anyway those are some things that can create heat issues. You say the wires are not hot, only the breakers. I would really start by looking at neutral and ground issues, as well as tight connections.
With respect to the electrician who suggested you buy a bigger breaker, you may suggest he get a diff career.

Keep us posted

 

[the_extremist]

If your protect 40amp wire with a 30amp breaker it is just fine and NOT a code violation.

This would be true if the connected load was not a continuous load. A continuous load is defined as a load operating continuously for three hours or more. Grow lights are unquestionably a continuous load, as are many other appliances we use in the garden.

A connected continuous load exceeding 80% of overcurrent protection is most certainly a violation of the NEC. His connected load is 6000VA. Balanced properly, this will give us 25 amps flowing on the ungrounded conductors of the feeder. 25 amps divided by the overcurrent rating will tell us our percentage used. 25 amps divided by 30 amps is .83. 83% That exceeds our 80% max allowed by the NEC for a continuous load. Is 3% negligable? Maybe. Is it a code violation? Definitely. Would upsizing to a 40 amp breaker satisfy the code? Yes. Is this okay using #8 wire? Yes. Seems cut and dried to me.

This is very simple shit that any second year apprentice could tell you. 80% max on a continuous load is sacred. Please stop spreading misinformation. The continuous load rule is one of the most often violated areas of the code in the indoor gardening community.

 

[FCDobbs]

This would be true if the connected load was not a continuous load. A continuous load is defined as a load operating continuously for three hours or more. Grow lights are unquestionably a continuous load, as are many other appliances we use in the garden.

A connected continuous load exceeding 80% of overcurrent protection is most certainly a violation of the NEC. His connected load is 6000VA. Balanced properly, this will give us 25 amps flowing on the ungrounded conductors of the feeder. 25 amps divided by the overcurrent rating will tell us our percentage used. 25 amps divided by 30 amps is .83. 83% That exceeds our 80% max allowed by the NEC for a continuous load. Is 3% negligable? Maybe. Is it a code violation? Definitely. Would upsizing to a 40 amp breaker satisfy the code? Yes. Is this okay using #8 wire? Yes. Seems cut and dried to me.

This is very simple shit that any second year apprentice could tell you. 80% max on a continuous load is sacred. Please stop spreading misinformation. The continuous load rule is one of the most often violated areas of the code in the indoor gardening community.

Dont be so eager to jump on the hate wagon, it shows youor ignorance. 80% of the 30 amp breaker is 24 amps certanly his 40amp wire is capable of carrying 24amps. Upsizing of wire goes on daily. Usually it is done to accomidate voltage drop. Look it up if you own a current code book. The 80 percent rule you are throwing about is to make sure you dont put 20 amp wire on a 100 amp breaker NOT to make sure you dont put 100 amp wire on a 20 amp breaker. when you get to second year they will explain it for you. I just finished a 400k sft building that had #8 on 20amp breakers, apparently they didnt talk to you when they did the building design. Please stop with all the numbers and techno bable used to impress the more ignorant,the code isnt even that complicated. I dont mean to be harsh, but when people parrot things without knowing what they are talking about, it just confuses the issue.

To the op, good luck in solving your problem.

 

[the_extremist]

Dont be so eager to jump on the hate wagon, it shows youor ignorance. 80% of the 30 amp breaker is 24 amps certanly his 40amp wire is capable of carrying 24amps. Upsizing of wire goes on daily. Usually it is done to accomidate voltage drop. Look it up if you own a current code book. The 80 percent rule you are throwing about is to make sure you dont put 20 amp wire on a 100 amp breaker NOT to make sure you dont put 100 amp wire on a 20 amp breaker. when you get to second year they will explain it for you. I just finished a 400k sft building that had #8 on 20amp breakers, apparently they didnt talk to you when they did the building design. Please stop with all the numbers and techno bable used to impress the more ignorant,the code isnt even that complicated. I dont mean to be harsh, but when people parrot things without knowing what they are talking about, it just confuses the issue.

To the op, good luck in solving your problem.

Lol. Yeah okay.

For the record, I'm not trying to impress anyone. I just hate it when people spread misinformation. Plus I actually enjoy educating people.

I'm a journeyman electrician, well past second year, bro. I know about voltage drop and upsizing conductors to compensate for it. 2KDI/CMA, yeah yeah yeah. Too bad that has nothing to do with what I'm talking about. I think you're showing your ignorance here.

I'm not even talking about wire size, really. I'm talking about overcurrent protection rating vs a connected continuous load. You want me to break out the book? Fine.

Per 2011 NEC:

Article 215.3

"Feeders shall be protected against overcurrent in accordance with the provisions of Part I of Article 240. Where a feeder supplies continuous loads or any combination of continuous and noncontinuous loads, the rating of the overcurrent device shall not be less than the non continuous load plus 125 percent of the continuous load."

Wow. Lookie there. Right in the NEC.

And you're right, 80% of 30 amps is 24 amps. And his connected load is 25 amps. Which exceeds 80% of his overcurrent protection rating of 30 amps. Which violates 215.3, plain and simple. And since his feeder's ungrounded conductors are #8, it's 100% okay to upsize to a 40 amp breaker, which btw would satisfy the code.

For a guy who works huge commercial buildings, I'm surprised you don't know about continuous loads. But hey, who can blame ya, right? It's not on the print.

 

[tokenbanker]

Also, if you have a meter with an amp clamp, check current flow on your feeder wires, even the neutral. Yes, in theory the loads are balanced so no current should be flowing on the neutral. But, when using electronic equipment like computers, fluorescent lights, or digital ballasts, the return current can be increased due to those loads functioning on a higher order of harmonics. Especially if you're using cheaper digis that are built with cheaper components. Amp clamp every wire in that panelboard to see if anything is wonky. You never know.

<Ding> A true RMS ammeter will likely reveal harmonic currents coming together on neutral while all six ballasts are running. The #8 ground probably isn't enough.

 

[Cam]

Problem Solved:

Added 6 surge protectors. One for each ballast. Too much noise on the line I guess.

Running cold now.

 

[growshopfrank]

Problem Solved:

Added 6 surge protectors. One for each ballast. Too much noise on the line I guess.

Running cold now.

So some MOV's suppressed whatever harmonics were heating up your breakers? (scratching head)

 

[Stress_test]

Aw I wouldn't worry about it none. If they get too hot just toss a bucket of water on em and cool em down so they don't start a fire.

 

[Marquis de Sod]

glad you fixed your problem although i could not understand for the life of me why in the hell surge surpressors would have anything to do with your breaker heating up. maybe when you unplugged them and re connected them you had a loosely fitting plug in an outlet that you fixed by re-seating?

token banker, a ground or neutral never has to be larger than the hots.

extremest: the size of the OCD determines the size of the circuit, NOT the size of the wire. by telling you to make the breaker capable of handling 125% of the load it is telling you to make sure you use wire big enough to handle it. in this case the 8 is fine.

the breaker is not going to trip just because you are running that extra amp thru it, or, if operating properly should not even trip at 30A. it is perfectly fine to put a 30A breaker on #8 or even a 20A breaker, as long as it will operate. i have bid a job to put a 200A breaker on 500MCM, likewise just for voltage drop.

since o.p. has solved his problem w/o changing breakers, it obviously was not the breakers smaller size that was causing the problem. i have never seen a breaker get hot anyway, regardless of amount of current (usually because they trip), unless there was a loose connection that caused the amperage to jump up to bypass the extra resistance, such as pins on the back of the breaker or busbar, usually loose connections in the back of an outlet somewhere in the circuit. i have seen very very hot breakers from the wire in the breaker or main lug, not being tight as well.

the important thing is that your WIRE has the capability to handle the continuous load, NOT the breaker, as breakers are supposed to handle whatever they are rated at for any amount of time in my book. if you can site me an article similar to the above that flat out tells me i can't put a smaller breaker on a larger wire, i will have to agree.
the article you mentioned i suppose would have to be taken very literally, and BY ITSELF, to be read the way you are interpreting it. the REAL danger of fire comes from the wire melting inside your wooden walls, not so much from a breaker melting inside a metal panel. the wire is the most important thing to size correctly for continuous loads. i do have to agree with you that the article does say what it says, but when you keep reading it goes on to state that the same goes for the conductors as well, at their listed ampacities at the temperature rating of the circuit breaker, usually 60C but some are 75C. (type CH for example). in other words, i would have to find an article to back up my statements, since you have found an article that backs up yours, but i am not willing to spend that much time looking for it. it would however, make a great topic over at www.mikeholt.com

 

[tokenbanker]

Perhaps some folks should do some reading on the effects of harmonics. Nuisance tripping of breakers is a cited symptom of harmonics generated by switching power supplies overloading the neutral.

http://www.mikeholt.com/technical.php?id=powerquality/technicalpowerqualityharmonics

http://www.copper.org/applications/electrical/pq/issues.html

 

[seeyouaunty]

glad you fixed your problem although i could not understand for the life of me why in the hell surge surpressors would have anything to do with your breaker heating up.

The surge surpressors likely have a harmonic filter, and power harmonics from the ballasts were probably heating up the breakers.

The more i learn about digital ballasts the more i love my good ol reliable magnetic ballasts.

 

[Cam]

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produ...belkin_surge_protector-_-12-107-188-_-Product

using that. Not a Harmonic filter but the EMI/RFI noise filter had some effect on it.

BUT

I got ahead of myself. It didn't entirely fix the problem. I went and checked on them just before the lights turned off and all the breakers were pretty warm...One of the hot lines seems to make the breakers on it a lot hotter than the other line. I tapped one of the breakers and it tripped.

I am pretty sure this is a harmonics problem. I don't have a true RMS ammeter, and I don't really want to buy one since i'm pretty sure this is the problem anyway.

Not sure if I'm gonna run a bigger wire or downsize this panel and add another right next to it.

 

[Avenger]

I'd still like to see a picture of this clusterfuck.

 

[growshopfrank]

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produ...belkin_surge_protector-_-12-107-188-_-Product

using that. Not a Harmonic filter but the EMI/RFI noise filter had some effect on it.

BUT

I got ahead of myself. It didn't entirely fix the problem. I went and checked on them just before the lights turned off and all the breakers were pretty warm...One of the hot lines seems to make the breakers on it a lot hotter than the other line. I tapped one of the breakers and it tripped.

I am pretty sure this is a harmonics problem. I don't have a true RMS ammeter, and I don't really want to buy one since i'm pretty sure this is the problem anyway.

Not sure if I'm gonna run a bigger wire or downsize this panel and add another right next to it.

1000w ballasts operating @120v will melt that power bar, plastic power bars do not play well with 1000w ballasts check and you will have 2 very warm plugs after a couple of hours operating and no doubt not not doing your main breaker any good
PS just a suggestion but as a last ditch plan purchase a decent meter from a big box store with a liberal return policy use it gently and return it

 

[the_extremist]

glad you fixed your problem although i could not understand for the life of me why in the hell surge surpressors would have anything to do with your breaker heating up. maybe when you unplugged them and re connected them you had a loosely fitting plug in an outlet that you fixed by re-seating?

token banker, a ground or neutral never has to be larger than the hots.

extremest: the size of the OCD determines the size of the circuit, NOT the size of the wire. by telling you to make the breaker capable of handling 125% of the load it is telling you to make sure you use wire big enough to handle it. in this case the 8 is fine.

the breaker is not going to trip just because you are running that extra amp thru it, or, if operating properly should not even trip at 30A. it is perfectly fine to put a 30A breaker on #8 or even a 20A breaker, as long as it will operate. i have bid a job to put a 200A breaker on 500MCM, likewise just for voltage drop.

since o.p. has solved his problem w/o changing breakers, it obviously was not the breakers smaller size that was causing the problem. i have never seen a breaker get hot anyway, regardless of amount of current (usually because they trip), unless there was a loose connection that caused the amperage to jump up to bypass the extra resistance, such as pins on the back of the breaker or busbar, usually loose connections in the back of an outlet somewhere in the circuit. i have seen very very hot breakers from the wire in the breaker or main lug, not being tight as well.

the important thing is that your WIRE has the capability to handle the continuous load, NOT the breaker, as breakers are supposed to handle whatever they are rated at for any amount of time in my book. if you can site me an article similar to the above that flat out tells me i can't put a smaller breaker on a larger wire, i will have to agree.
the article you mentioned i suppose would have to be taken very literally, and BY ITSELF, to be read the way you are interpreting it. the REAL danger of fire comes from the wire melting inside your wooden walls, not so much from a breaker melting inside a metal panel. the wire is the most important thing to size correctly for continuous loads. i do have to agree with you that the article does say what it says, but when you keep reading it goes on to state that the same goes for the conductors as well, at their listed ampacities at the temperature rating of the circuit breaker, usually 60C but some are 75C. (type CH for example). in other words, i would have to find an article to back up my statements, since you have found an article that backs up yours, but i am not willing to spend that much time looking for it. it would however, make a great topic over at www.mikeholt.com

Goddamn this thread just keeps going. lol

First thing's first, you're right that in the NEC a neutral never has to be bigger than the ungrounded conductors. However, when it comes to designing, especially nowadays with data centers, call centers, server rooms, etc. where there is a large harmonic load returning on the neutral conductor, it's a good idea to upsize your neutral on feeders and branch circuits if you're installing in places like those mentioned above. Why? Because of increased harmonic load.

This is even being tackled by manufacturers in the industry. Crack open a catalog for an MC Cable manufacturer and I'll bet you could order an armored cable with three #12 phase conductors, a #8 neutral conductor and a #12 equipment ground. Super-Neutral Cable I believe is one manufacturer's product name, I forget the wire manufacturer at the moment.

Also, there have been incidents of tech companies opening up data centers with server rooms and just lots of electronic equipment in general, and burning up the neutral at both load centers and utility transformers. It happens. Why? Undersized conductor for the amount of harmonic load returning on the neutral. The industry is just now catching up to this.

Okay. First of all, I never claimed that his overcurrent rating on his feeder was the source of his problem. I simply pointed out that it's a code violation and should be fixed.

Back to whether or not his feeder overcurrent rating is a code violation. It is. To me, or anyone else, Article 215.3 is very clear on this. I don't have my codebook in front of me right now, but one page back, 215.1 or so, covers feeder conductor size. It basically says the same thing, but to me it would seem 215.3 has wire size covered too. Our overcurrent rating, along with any applicable correction factors, will dictate minimum conductor size anyway.

The code says OCD rating shall be 125% of connected load for a continuous load. Why? Because that extra 20% margin you give on the load is supposed to compensate for the extra heat generated by a continuous load, not only on the conductor, but also at the breaker. This is in the code because, like you mentioned above, there is more heat and that has to be accounted for not only in the conductor inside your walls, but also at that conductor's termination at the breaker. Remember, breakers trip because of a set temperature witch is a function of current flow @ whatever the temp rating is on the breaker, usually 40*C. Not because they can magically sense current flow in amperes no matter the ambient temperature. That heat must be accounted for and that's why 215.3 is in the code book. Otherwise, you could make sure your wire was sized at 125% but load the breaker right up to capacity. And mark my words, if you do this in a lighting distribution load center or any other load center where most of the branch circuits are continuous loads, you will have breakers tripping. Why? Those breakers need that extra 20% capacity to compensate for that extra heat from the continuous load. Once those breakers reach a certain temperature, they trip regardless of current flow.

30 amps is only 120% of his 25 amp connected continuous load. According to 215.3, this is a code violation. Plain and simple. Is it close? Yeah. Am I nit-picking? Yeah. But any electrician knows that a lot of the code is all about nit-picking. Regardless of whether or not I'm nit-picking, is this still a goddamn code violation? Affirmative. Call an inspector out to look at it and if he's good he'll call you on it. Because why? Because it's a friggin code violation and that's his job.

 

[Cam]

Man, this is a pain in the ass. Before wiring in another panel I decided to try and add a 10ga neutral onto my 8ga. Ghetto yes..but I wanted to see if it would make any difference.

I took off the surge protectors and fired everything back up. Two of the breakers tripped in about 10min.

The symptom seems to be induction heating of the breakers...Nothing else gets hot. ALL of the wires are cold. Once I flip off the power the neutral bar is barely warm. The bus bars actually aren't that hot either.

My current plan is to just add another panel and have them wired so they *could* run 4 lights each. This panel seems to be happy enough with 4 lights.

what a PITA. Any other ideas for a quick fix?

 

[the_extremist]

btw, I think the best solution to this is to use core and coil ballasts.

Reliable, cheap, and no harmonics fucking with you.

 

[the_extremist]

Also, you should be upsizing your neutral for the harmonics, if indeed that is your problem. Try a #6 or even #4. Assuming of course that harmonics are your problem.

 

[Stress_test]

How many monkeys are humpin this hot breaker anyway?

Fuck the orchestra and all the high fluting harmonics...

Oversize the breaker by 10% and oversize the wire by a blonde hair, tighten the ground until the nuts squeak and if it doesn't work then call a damned electrician.

All that BS about Beethoven and them harmonicas is a load. You're talking about mechanical breakers and ballasts with a few fans. People have been using them for years without having to hire a damned orchestrator to keep the harmonicas corked.

Use your heads. You're pipin crap and it's gonna start stinkin if it gets much deeper.

 

[BYLROY]

Why don't you just try running them at 220v and see if that fixes it?