Breakers getting hot and tripping...

[allouez]

Install a new dist box?
240v is pretty convenient to me. You're using a circuit dedicated to the ballasts anyway. Though I suppose in your case you'd just be using two ballasts on each of three 240v breakers if you switched anyway? Which would theoretically cause the same amount of heat?

 

[seeyouaunty]

Have you got any non-digital ballasts to try? Digital ballasts can sometimes throw out a bunch of power harmonics, i'm not sure how likely it is but maybe they're reacting with your breakers in a weird way.

Have you used the ballasts successfully before or is this their first run?

 

[the_extremist]

I love how quick you all are to jump all over me on this one. One at a time now...

EclipseFour20: Thanks for the suggestion. I already mentioned though that I replaced the breakers once.

real_ting: I actually already had one of my really good friends, who is an electrician come over and take a look at it. He said everything looks setup just fine, and that he has no idea whats causing the heat...and to try bigger and different breakers. (which, I did)

Iron_Lion: All the breakers are balanced. There are only 6 spaces...and I understand how to balance a breaker box...

As for the 80% rule, its more for wiring......and as a general guideline for general purpose use. Modern Day circuit breakers are safe to their full rating. Running a breaker to 90% isn't going to start a fire, running a load on an underrated wire will. Worst case you pop the breaker. 99.9% of the time it will just trip when it gets to its rated current.

I believe the NEC recommends something like 70% or something on a constant load anyway...Despite that suggestion I'd feel safe running 40amps full load through an 8ga wire for 5 feet anyway.

My wiring to my box is rated to 40amps. The 30amp breaker is on the main because I want it to trip if my ballasts draw more than 30 amps...it lets me know that something up there is wrong...I wouldn't want 6 1k watt ballasts tripping at 40 amps EVER..

For example, say the volt drops a bit for some unknown reason... then the ballasts compensate by pulling more current, more heat is generated...the digital ballasts become less efficient in the extra heat drawing even more current...So if I go with the next size up the NEC recommends, the best case is that my ballasts all die or break the fuse they have in them. Worst case is that they start a fire.

With a 30 amp breaker theres only about 600-1000 more watts before the main breaker trips. I do this in all my rooms and have never had a problem... Actually, one time the AC died in an attic grow of mine. The room started cooking in the lights. The ballasts drew a shit ton more power in the heat and the breaker on the main panel flipped. It probably saved the entire grow. When I got up there it was 110 degrees with no lights on.

I guess my point is that the NEC is there for general use...there may be cases where if you really understand what your doing, it my be better to design the circuit yourself. I know some utterly stupid people who are electricians....people with high school diplomas only. I wouldn't want them designing anything for me. I'm not saying electricians are stupid people. There experience and practical working knowledge is invaluable, and a lot of them did go to school for awhile...but that doesn't mean they understand electricity as well as someone who went to school to study circuits and electricity for 4-5 years. Electrical Engineering is 3/4ths my degree...also my original focus. We need something like the NEC to govern how houses are wired and whatnot, its not the end all rule to everything though. Do I think someone who has no real understanding of all the factors at play when designing a circuit should modify a single part of the NEC? No, definitely not. So..I do understand when people quote it. Its always annoying though when someone thinks its you that has no clue what they are doing when actually...that person is just parroting a rule they read.

As for your last comment. Suck on my donkey balls bitch.


Weezard: Yeah, thanks for the suggestion. I checked the bus when I switched breakers. All the breakers and the box are brand new though so its perfectly clean.

Lol, so you get to supercede what the NEC says just because you have a degree that has literally nothing to do with line voltage electrical installations? Gimme a break. Just because you understand theory doesn't mean you understand practical applications of it and how they relate to electrical construction.

 

[Snagglepuss]

Have you got any non-digital ballasts to try? Digital ballasts can sometimes throw out a bunch of power harmonics, i'm not sure how likely it is but maybe they're reacting with your breakers in a weird way.

Have you used the ballasts successfully before or is this their first run?

I would give a different ballast a try,my htg digital gave me some strange electrical issues..Eventually burning out....just a thought...mileage may vary...

 

[growshopfrank]

Not a bad point! My digital ballasts seem to do pretty well for being the cheap digital greenhouse ones from HTG. The cords barely get warm.

I hadn't thought much about it really. I just like that if I ever need to move something temporarily to another room...like one light or something I can just plug it into the wall outlet.

FWIW if you wanted to run your ballasts 240v all that they need is the 240v cord there is no switch on the ballast it will run 90v to 260v out of the box

 

[growshopfrank]

I would give a different ballast a try,my htg digital gave me some strange electrical issues..Eventually burning out....just a thought...mileage may vary...

What input voltage were you running? the reason I ask is that I have seen a fair number of fried 1000w digital ballasts that were running 120v in but I cant remember any that were operated at 240v and fried Food for thought for anyone running 1000w digital ballasts 750w and down digi's don't seem to have this issue

 

[Cam]

Lol, so you get to supercede what the NEC says just because you have a degree that has literally nothing to do with line voltage electrical installations? Gimme a break. Just because you understand theory doesn't mean you understand practical applications of it and how they relate to electrical construction.

All I am doing different is using a smaller main breaker then they want...and for a very good reason. The rest is wired correct. Did you even bother reading the entire post?

 

[Yes4Prop215]

9a@120 frank. 120 is more portable for me...my house is filled with 120v plugs if I ever need to move something...i don't understand why anyone would use 240v ballasts?

240v is the shit because you use less amps....4.1 amps for a 1k in 240v versus almost 9amps for 120v....plus i like to keep my ballasts on their own dedicated circuit i run all the equipment and extras off the 120s...

 

[chefro420]

240v is the shit because you use less amps....4.1 amps for a 1k in 240v versus almost 9amps for 120v....plus i like to keep my ballasts on their own dedicated circuit i run all the equipment and extras off the 120s...

you use the same amps I thought? Isn't a 240 breaker on 2 poles ? ANd a 120 on just 1 pole?

 

[Cam]

The lights turn back on in about 2 hours.

I have had 5 of the ballasts for almost 2 years now. I've never used more than 3 together at a time though. I am wondering if they are reacting strangely to each other.

I'm not positive what I'm going to do just yet...possibly a new box tonight.

 

[Darkstarlive]

Wow, the guy asks a simple question and just because He mentions that He has Degree the derogotory comments come flying.

Are you really that intimidated by someone with a colloge degree?

IMO, that is whats fucked up about ICMAG, too many haters and not enough helpers..remember thats what this site is supposed to be about, sharing info and helping people grow.

Good luck CAM.

 

[Cam]

The current is essentially the main heat producer here. 4.1amps at 240 in terms of our household currents means you'll have two lines pulling 4.1amps each. The two 120 lines are 180 degrees out of phase with eachother...at any one moment there will only be 4.1amps going through each line...It won't get as hot. The first circuit the input cord will hit is the power supply. I've never opened a ballast before but I'd damn well bet all of the half way decent digital ballasts use a switching power supply. There would be absolutely no gain in efficiency if that is the case. 240v would be a little easier on the internals but it doesn't matter much after it hits the first transformer, which will be pretty much the first thing that it tries to do. like i said though, ive never opened one up.

 

[the_extremist]

You stated that you believe that the NEC says 70% for a continuous load, which is wrong. It's 80% of overcurrent device rating. And then you said you think newer breakers are fine for loading up to full capacity regardless of what the NEC says, also wrong. 80% of overcurrent device rating for a continuous load is sacred in the code, brother. Bottom line. Doesn't matter what you think. NFPA doesn't give a shit about your degree either. They care about safe installations wired to code in order to prevent damage to person and property.

Here's the deal. Breakers don't detect current flow. Breakers detect heat. They are manufactured to certain specs to trip at a specific temperature which is combination of current flow, ambient temperature, and circuit resistance. Breakers will only trip at their overcurrent rating at 40*C or 104*F, look on the side of the breaker, you'll find this rating stamped on there. This temperature rating has an inverse relation with current flow; i.e. as your ambient temperature (at the breaker, inside the enclosed panelboard) drops below 104*F you can flow more current than it's rated for without that breaker tripping and as you exceed 104*F the breaker will trip at a lower current flow than the overcurrent rating.

The reason the 80% max load for continuous loads is in the code is because of this. When you have a significant load running for an extended period of time, it's going to generate some extra heat, period. No way around this. So you can imagine that as you flow more current and this current flow gets closer to the overcurrent protection rating, coupled with a warmer than normal ambient temperature (grow room, anybody?), it might trip a breaker a bit easier than you may think.

And don't forget about our little buddy resistance. Once you take all the above info and combine it with the possibility that you may have a high-resistance fault somewhere, problems like yours become a reality. Having resistance where there shouldn't be any will cause unwanted heat and possibly a fire.

My educated guess is that it's either your ambient temperature @ your load center and/or a high resistance fault fucking with you. Bottom line is, heat is your problem, one way or another. Check your connections, clean your bus bar, and your neutral bus also. Loose neutral connections are also high resistance faults and will generate heat. Check and clean every connection in your subpanel and use an anti-oxidant gel on your main lug connections, neutral lug too. If that doesn't do the trick, then you should probably hire one of those stupid electricians that knows the code that doesn't really apply to do the work for you.

Also, if your feeder wires are #8 AWG, you should be using a 40amp breaker to feed the subpanel, not a 30. Your branch circuit overcurrent protection @ the subpanel will keep current flow in check for your lighting, there's no need to undersize your feeder breaker for this purpose. Again, you are violating the 80% rule and if the ambient temperature at your main panel where that breaker is terminated ever exceeds 104*F, which is common considering all the other breakers drawing current in that panel, that breaker will trip and kill the power to your grow.

 

[Cam]

Wow, the guy asks a simple question and just because He mentions that He has Degree the derogotory comments come flying.

Are you really that intimidated by someone with a colloge degree?

IMO, that is whats fucked up about ICMAG, too many haters and not enough helpers..remember thats what this site is supposed to be about, sharing info and helping people grow.

Good luck CAM.

Yes, thank you. The only reason I even mentioned the degree was so that in hopes someone who has a lot of experience wouldn't be afraid to ask the technical questions to help me find the solution to this problem.

 

[Snagglepuss]

What input voltage were you running? the reason I ask is that I have seen a fair number of fried 1000w digital ballasts that were running 120v in but I cant remember any that were operated at 240v and fried Food for thought for anyone running 1000w digital ballasts 750w and down digi's don't seem to have this issue

Mine was a htg 600 ,maby lasted 6 months..Switched to a Galaxy and 2 yrs now without a hiccup..Im convinced they are very cheaply made..but again....your mileage may vay

 

[the_extremist]

Also, if you have a meter with an amp clamp, check current flow on your feeder wires, even the neutral. Yes, in theory the loads are balanced so no current should be flowing on the neutral. But, when using electronic equipment like computers, fluorescent lights, or digital ballasts, the return current can be increased due to those loads functioning on a higher order of harmonics. Especially if you're using cheaper digis that are built with cheaper components. Amp clamp every wire in that panelboard to see if anything is wonky. You never know.

 

[Cam]

http://ecatalog.squared.com/pubs/Circuit Protection/0600DB0101.pdf

The rule is 75% on cont load...except for 100percent rated breakers.

I already had a certified electrician come look at it. I already said that.

The ambient temp is 75. I've been leaving the cover off while this has been a problem. Everything has been bought brand new (breakers and box). I also gave it the once over with steel wool and acetone.

Still, the heat is coming from the bus bars i'm pretty sure so there must be some resistance on the bus bar's of some sort i'm thinking. They are super clean so I don't really get it. Maybe humid air? I have my doubts if that would cause any problems though...


The breaker everyones getting pissy about hasn't got shit to do with the problem anyway.

anyway..i'm getting more shit then help at this point so i'm done here...

 

[Rednick]

All I am doing different is using a smaller main breaker then they want...and for a very good reason. The rest is wired correct. Did you even bother reading the entire post?

I agree with the other guy.
At least rule out the breaker sizing.
Smaller breaker, larger wire = not good IMO.

 

[the_extremist]

http://ecatalog.squared.com/pubs/Circuit Protection/0600DB0101.pdf

The rule is 75%...except for 100percent rated breakers.

"In short, this article says that a standard-rated circuit (circuit breaker and
wire) can carry 80% of the circuit breaker and conductor current rating. In
contrast, 100% rated circuits can carry 100% of the circuit breaker and
conductor current rating.
When applying 100%-rated circuit breakers, there are several UL and NEC
restrictions which must be kept in mind. If any of these restrictions are not
met, the 100% rated circuit breaker becomes a standard- or 80%-rated circuit
breaker. "

That's from the pdf you posted. Where are you getting 75%? I'm reading 80% both in the NEC and your Square D pdf.

 

[the_extremist]

Also, yes your feeder breaker is a different issue, but it may give you problems down the road, not to mention it's fucking code violation. You don't make it very easy to help you out man. Your attitude sucked from the git-go, why do you think everyone jumped on you? It's a coincidence and everyone else in the world is a jerk? Yeah, okay.