botrytis resistance and bud structure

[Probiomer]

What is the connection between bud structure and mold resistance?

I always thought that airy/foxtailing buds are great for mold resistance because its always a problem in big dense buds. Also all the hemp varieties have very airy/fluffy buds and they don't have trouble with mold.

I thought we created the problem because we selected for bag appeal/dense nugs.



Researching resistant strains i came across the swiss erdbeeri strain, which is supposed to be one of the best for mold resistance. The reasoning is that the small dense buds don't allow the water to get in.


So are really dense or airy buds better for mold resistance?

Or is it mainly due to other factors?

 

[Creeperpark]

Hello friend. I see a lot of people make the misconception that the strain is at fault. Sometimes it can be a strain, but most of the time it's the environmental factors that cause blight diseases. It's the grower and not the strain. If you bend the rules like over-fertilizing or over-lighting, over-wet conditions, and over-crowding it can come back and bite one on his ass and it usually does.

You can grow desert plants in desert environments but not desert plants in tropical environments. If you do you are breaking the environmental rules. Before planting any strain, make sure you master the environment to match the strain first for mold-free weed.

 

[Probiomer]

I am growing outdoors so i cant control everything.
Of course the basics have to be right. Also silica, and SAR inducers.
I am asking because i am considering to force foxtailing with Lynchis viscaria and willow shoot extract.
I extract anyway so i don't care about bud structure.

 

[MROrganicGreenz]

You should have a quick look in the genetics that are in the catalogue of TRSC or landrace team or Khalifa or ACE. Those have loads of landraces. Like Creeperpark said it's mostly about the heritage and what climate the specific strains adapted to. But you cannot say: This is from Afghanistan, so it's really subsceptible to mold. There are quite good mold resistant strains in the afghani genepool. But in the end you could say:
- Plants from dry steppe or arid regions are often more susceptible to mold
- Plants from tropic/subtropic regions are more tolerant to mold issues

On the other hand afghani strains are often more tolerant to hard switches in night/day temperature while genetics from tropic/subtropic are really pissed about strong differences.

So thats for the landraces that are grown outdoors. When we go into modern hybrids we have another issue. 1. most modern strains are not stable. There is a few breeders that go through stabilisation and real breeding but most are pollen chuckers and white labeling seed banks. Those are imho often weak genetics towards biotic/abiotic stress and pathogens. There are polyhybrids all over the place that haven't been stable in generations. Those are often cranky and lack immune system and responses. You can see that all over agricultural topics. If you have a look at apple orchards and production, there is just a dozen or two that are in the shops. Those are mostly from 5 genetics crossed all over the place. What you got is huge orchards that need to be sprayed with fungizides every other week. If you go into traditional apple genetics (> 600 types) you can see, that those are often very tolerant towards mentioned factors. Thats coz they adapted over centuries and are stable. Same goes for cannabis. Especially when they started to grow in controlled environments where the resistances inside the plants were nearly obsolete since the stressors and pathogens were excluded. It often wasn't needed and couldn't come up, so it got lost while breeding for other traits.

There is way more information that I could give, but I need to be off atm. If you got some more questions just ask

Good reads would be : "Extinction by hybridisation and Intogression" by Rhymer and Simberloff

Regards

 

[MROrganicGreenz]

I am growing outdoors so i cant control everything.
Of course the basics have to be right. Also silica, and SAR inducers.
I am asking because i am considering to force foxtailing with Lynchis viscaria and willow shoot extract.
I extract anyway so i don't care about bud structure.

I wouldnt try to foxtail a genetic that isn't tolerant to mold. I wouldn't try to foxtail anything tbh. I don't exactly know what Lynchis viscaria does and how willow shoot extract would force foxtailing. Got any infos on that?

Problem is: Anything off the charts like excessive nitrogen or other stressors would lead to a weak immune system and higher suscebtibility towards disease and pathogen. I would consider going for maybe short flowering sativas that have a good tolerance towards mold. Or those that are really fast finishing. Have a look for semi-autoflower traits like in Lebanese or other sativa plants. Check the seed banks I mentioned above. There are some really promising genetics in there. But always consider, that those real landraces that are offered by TRSC and Landrace team are often not super stable and could tend to herming. I would go for Khalifa and ACE since those are mostly stable and there was a lot of work put in.

@dubi maybe got some recommendations for you

 

[Creeperpark]

I am growing outdoors so i cant control everything.
Of course the basics have to be right. Also silica, and SAR inducers.
I am asking because i am considering to force foxtailing with Lynchis viscaria and willow shoot extract.
I extract anyway so i don't care about bud structure.

You need to learn about your growing environment. When is the first and last frost and how long the growing season is. Annual rainfall per season. If you are planting in the ground you can amend and raise beds to maximize drainage. The planting area is very important to ensure the plants are in full Sun with maximum airflow. You ask a question but ignore the reply. Good luck friend.

 

[MROrganicGreenz]

Since you are german speaking I guess you sit around 53° and something 48° like. This means you are kind of limited in the genetics. Most Sativas won't finish and this would mean maybe lebanese or some other fast finishing strains. Have a look at "ErdPurt" from Ace or the Purple Satellite and stuff. Those are quite fast and mold resistant. Erdbeerli is also an option. Maybe also look for Friesian and other stuff in the KWIKseed catalogue. There is some promising stuff in there

 

[Probiomer]

Thanks for the detailed response and reading suggestion.

I also believe that there must be some sort of epigenetic degredation happening with indoor breeding. Its alarming how fast indoor breeding can produce plants that are not able to work in its natural environment anymore.

They contain gibberellins and brassinosterioids, which promote stretching/foxtailing. Its not stressing but regulating the growth patterns. Its the principle KNF fermented plant juices are based upon.

I am at 52°
I will definetly grow erdpurt or a erdpurt hybrid next year. I am even considering monk - hfh instead.
Balung Nepalese seems to be even faster than Purple Satellite and should be strong enough for me.

 

[Captain Red Eye]

Concerning botrytis, bud structure might be a factor, but it's worth mentioning other entry points.

Botrytis likes decaying matter to get a toehold. Dangling aged leaf petioles and leaf styles that allow decaying leaf entry into buds are mold starting points. They can be cut out, sprayed etc. Hopefully before they get into the buds.

Stem and branch lacerations can provide a mold toehold too. Can't really cut your stem out though. When I have stem or branch mold happening, I dust or spray the wound and tape it closed. Trying sulfur now, but other substances might work too.

Botrytis is aerobic, don't give it any air! Smother it or bathe it in something it doesn't like and don't allow wind to blow spores! If a mold spot looks like it's producing active spores, might be a good idea to spray it first, then cut it out, to prevent giving spores a chance to get airborne.

 

[MROrganicGreenz]

Ah Captain Red Eye got some quite interesting points there. I just want to add: I got to know some people that said, when you are taking out fan leaves that are at the higher parts of the plant, you shouldn't cut/snap them at the base of the stem but rather at the base of the leaf and leave the leafstem on the plant. The wound at the stembase could be an entrance for budrot, especially when the inflorescense starts to overgrow the wound it could create a milieu that benefits mold. I cannot really show a picture but I think its self-explanatory

Regards

 

[Orange's Greenhouse]

Morning dew settles all over the plant, no matter how dense the buds. Airy buds tend to dry quicker so that's a plus but not resistence. This year has been particularly bad though. Can't really do much other than selecting better genetics next year.
Breeding in a controlled environment does not select for mold resistance. Those genes can quickly be lost if the breeder is not conscientious. In a way you want a bad grower to breed resistant plants.

 

[Probiomer]

Concerning botrytis, bud structure might be a factor, but it's worth mentioning other entry points.

Thats the feeling i was getting after reading many anecdotes on the forums. Often you have budworms in the thickest top buds that gives botrytis a head start. If you have good genetics in prime health, botrytis should really have a hard time penetrating the thick cell walls.

In forestry they use trichoderma on tree wounds to prevent parasitic fungi from growing. Trichoderma in general something i will try get more into in the future. The right strains as a foliar should also fight against botrytis.
But i haven't found a product for foliar in my area. I would probably have to make it myself. The ones for soil have saved one of my plants from dying to fusarium this year.

 

[MROrganicGreenz]

In orchards they also use Clay for closing wounds. But I dunno if you can reproduce that to cannabis. A treebark is quote different from cannabis stem

 

[foomar]

In my experience the looser fluffier pheno , if it exists , is much less effected by budrot than the denser type from the same cross.
Almost always it starts a third of the way down the main colas , if caught fast a clean excision of anything looking remotely dodgy usually saves whats left.

This year the only plants untouched by PM and budrot are revegged from last year , flowered out after giveing a lot of clones.

If you are sure you will extract with icebags you could spray with sulphur and bordeaux till harvest and wash the taint away.

Used this trichoprotect stuff recently and it seems to have worked , 2% unspecified microbials in a filler that looks like starch or powdered milk.

 

[handwerker]

 

[Dime]

In orchards they also use Clay for closing wounds. But I dunno if you can reproduce that to cannabis. A treebark is quote different from cannabis stem

My father used to paint tar on pruned tree wounds.

 

[CharlesU Farley]

Stem and branch lacerations can provide a mold toehold too. Can't really cut your stem out though. When I have stem or branch mold happening, I dust or spray the wound and tape it closed. Trying sulfur now, but other substances might work too.

A photograph to illustrate your point:

From that point on, I remove fan leaves with scissors instead of ripping them off.

 

[CharlesU Farley]

What is the connection between bud structure and mold resistance?

I always thought that airy/foxtailing buds are great for mold resistance because its always a problem in big dense buds. Also all the hemp varieties have very airy/fluffy buds and they don't have trouble with mold.

I thought we created the problem because we selected for bag appeal/dense nugs.



Researching resistant strains i came across the swiss erdbeeri strain, which is supposed to be one of the best for mold resistance. The reasoning is that the small dense buds don't allow the water to get in.


So are really dense or airy buds better for mold resistance?

Or is it mainly due to other factors?

I'm not going to be able to help you because I grow indoors and not out. But this is what I've done indoors to counteract botrytis.

I'm altering and developing the pheno/physical structure of Northern Lights to provide smaller buds but _many_ more of them... without topping, fimming, or otherwise decapitating a cannabis plant.

I found that bud structure most assuredly affects the chance of botrytis infecting buds. When you have big donkey dick size buds like these:

Indoors, with high temp and high humidity, during a summer flowering, plants like these are almost guaranteed to get botrytis in my tents downstairs in the basement.

By using techniques I've learned, this is what the plants look like now:

Smaller buds, with the intricate branching pattern, give me the same yield I used to get with the massive bud size of the original, with no botrytis or PM at all.

Now, it's not only the plant structure, because I also found when treating PM with potassium bicarb, suddenly the botrytis problem went away as well.

More info in case you're interested, warning it's a Wall of Words / long read.

How You Can Develop Cannabis To Do What You Want

The topic today is going to be competition and why it's good for cannabis. We used to call cannabis _weed_ back in the '60s for a very good reason, that's what it is. Weeds, by their very definition, are competitive, thrive and in fact, do best when they are in that type of environment. From...

www.icmag.com

 

[Dime]

I'm not going to be able to help you because I grow indoors and not out. But this is what I've done indoors to counteract botrytis.

I'm altering and developing the pheno/physical structure of Northern Lights to provide smaller buds but _many_ more of them... without topping, fimming, or otherwise decapitating a cannabis plant.

I found that bud structure most assuredly affects the chance of botrytis infecting buds. When you have big donkey dick size buds like these:



View attachment 19065189
Indoors, with high temp and high humidity, during a summer flowering, plants like these are almost guaranteed to get botrytis in my tents downstairs in the basement.

By using techniques I've learned, this is what the plants look like now:

View attachment 19065194

Smaller buds, with the intricate branching pattern, give me the same yield I used to get with the massive bud size of the original, with no botrytis or PM at all.

Now, it's not only the plant structure, because I also found when treating PM with potassium bicarb, suddenly the botrytis problem went away as well.

More info in case you're interested, warning it's a Wall of Words / long read.

How You Can Develop Cannabis To Do What You Want

The topic today is going to be competition and why it's good for cannabis. We used to call cannabis _weed_ back in the '60s for a very good reason, that's what it is. Weeds, by their very definition, are competitive, thrive and in fact, do best when they are in that type of environment. From...

www.icmag.com

Cinnamon works well too

 

[Douglas.Curtis]

Nutrition is the baseline defense for the plant. Regardless of strain choice, you want densely available micro nutrients and the right amount of calcium to give them the best chance of success. Adding rabbit manure to your outdoor holes will do wonders for the health and quality.

Edit: I would not be surprised to find strains with higher resistance to also have higher absorption ability of those same micros.