Odd that this product is not available n the USA. I wonder why?
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Boosting Terpenes! What Organically Sourced Product do YOU Use for Greater Quantity/Flavor/Aroma/Complexity of your Terpenes?
- Thread starter Douglas.Curtis
- Start date
Odd that this product is not available n the USA. I wonder why?
Gypsum (calcium sulfate) and insect frass are my 2 favorite inputs. Though I think it's more about genetics and keeping your environment dialed in (especially during drying and curing).
Sure, you can buy a bunch of products, and they may slightly change the expression of the plant, but I think that's a bit like chasing your tail. Better to find genetics you really like, dial in your environment, and go from there.
Keep in mind too, that hydrology plays a massive role in nutrient cycling and uptake. So how you water may have a bigger impact in how your plant finishes than what you add to the soil.
Sure, you can buy a bunch of products, and they may slightly change the expression of the plant, but I think that's a bit like chasing your tail. Better to find genetics you really like, dial in your environment, and go from there.
Keep in mind too, that hydrology plays a massive role in nutrient cycling and uptake. So how you water may have a bigger impact in how your plant finishes than what you add to the soil.
acespicoli
Well-known member
For plants we want unsulfured molasses
this component https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sulfur_dioxide# would not be added to it as a preservative
Thanks for pointing that sulfur thing out the molasses Sulfur Dioxide SO2
varies from the agricultural Sulfur,S that you would want in the mix
Just to recap buy only unsulfured molasses
You know the different sugars carbs starches etc all can be dissolved in acids
Roots produce many types of acids for weatherizing rock, shells etc
In a indoor or outdoor grow the energy available to grow is the limiting factor
Joule - Wikipedia
- The food energy (kcal) in slightly more than half of an ordinary-sized sugar crystal (0.102 mg/crystal).
light spectrum and mineral deficiencies a whole other rabbit hole
I have already learned alot from this thread thanks for sharing
Best >>>
Whatever you add and however you do process it, I do recommend vaporising finished product. You do literally burn >80% of the taste if smoke. Controlled vaporisation is the way if you do focus on the taste and effects.
Vaping Cannabis Produces Stronger Effects Than Smoking Cannabis For Infrequent Users | Johns Hopkins Medicine
Btw how do you recommend applying molasses if I grow in coco? Doesn't makes sens, does it?
Vaping Cannabis Produces Stronger Effects Than Smoking Cannabis For Infrequent Users | Johns Hopkins Medicine
Btw how do you recommend applying molasses if I grow in coco? Doesn't makes sens, does it?
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I have a problem believing that HA reduces thc content....products like AN ph perfect is a good example of having humic in it but never hearing people say any weed grown in it is less potent??the commonality of an underlying aroma throughout your multiple strains indicates to me that the humic acid is injecting a flavor and not eliciting a greater terpene profile. if it were creating a stronger terpene profile each strain would display it's unique profile, only stronger.
this is a paper by dr nirit bernstein
it discusses the impact of these substances on cannabinoids but she does not deal with terpenes here.
an excerpt from the discussion;
"Interestingly, HA significantly reduced the natural spatial variability of all of the cannabinoids studied. However, the increased uniformity came at the expense of the higher levels of cannabinoids found in the upper regions of the untreated plants (Figure 4). For example, following HA application THC levels at the top of the plant was reduced from 11.8 to 7.4%, and consequently concentrations throughout the plant height did not differ significantly (Figure 4A)."
Impact of N, P, K, and Humic Acid Supplementation on the Chemical Profile of Medical Cannabis (Cannabis sativa L)
Frontiers | Impact of N, P, K, and Humic Acid Supplementation on the Chemical Profile of Medical Cannabis (Cannabis sativa L)
Mineral nutrition is a major factor affecting plant growth and function. Increasing evidence supports the involvement of macro and micronutrients in secondar...www.frontiersin.org
her conclusion on humic acid supplements is that they reduce cannabinoids in the top levels of the plant.
what i have been doing is using perlite as the bulk of the media. to 6 gallons of perlite i have been adding 3 lbs of worm castings and 18 oz's of diatomaceous earth. not mixed throughout the medium but worked into the top few inches. the plants are watered from the top with a drip ring but applied in pulses of approx 1/2 gal every 3-4 hours.
to this, in the recirculating feed tank, i add 1ml fulvic acid per gal (mr fulvic) and a heaping teaspoon of maxi crop kelp powder per 20 gals.
i'm using jack's 3-2-1 as a base nutrient. this combination has noticeably increased the overall flavor but i'm not sure it's increasing the terpene profile.
fulvic acid has a smaller molecule than humic acid and i don't think it is reducing cannabinoids but i have not yet found any research on it.
just a heads up on humic acid. i think that naturally occurring humic acids such as forest floor types may not cause this reduction in cannabinoids but, again, i have not seen any research on the subject.
this is my last plant grown this way.
Anyone else experience reduced potency from it's use?
I've always felt it helped intake of nutrients and should add terps and potency if anything.
Douglas.Curtis
Autistic Diplomat in Training
@PoweredByLove Cannabis is a bit different than most plants, and a number of things can influence the flavors and aromas it will produce.
1. Cannabis is a dynamic accumulator. This means it has more than the 'passive ionic' uptake method all other plants use to absorb "Stuff" in the root zone. This also means it can (and most often does) absorb molecules and elements it has ZERO need for when building new plant structures. With cannabis, this means things which can affect flavor. As @goingrey mentions, there is something in AN pH Perfect Sensi Coco with a honey flavor to it the plants are absorbing.
2. Genetics of the plant are a shotgun of variables controlling terpene expression. When a plant is given exactly what it needs, the genetic expression of the terpene profile will be the best and most complex version of those genetics. When you don't have enough of a micro-nutrient or are missing a bit of a needed element (sulfur is common), the terpene profile is going to be different.
You can look at it as each plant is a house builder with blueprints. Depending on the quality and quantity of the materials and tools they're given, the resulting house will be different, no? Imagine if a part of the lumber required for the house was replaced with plastic pink flamingos. lol
3. Environmental factors have an effect on terpene complexity and production. Terpenes are a result of chemical reactions which are mostly assisted by enzymes. The thing about enzymes is they create different terpenes from the same materials, with the differences occuring because of changes in temperature, pH and hydration levels. So the same clone grown in the same hydro setups will have different terpene profiles, simply by keeping the pH the same in one res while allowing a healthy pH swing in the other. The variable pH clone will have much more complex terpene production than the steady pH clone.
@greyfader I don't understand why she is applying HA as a foliar in the middle of flowering? The very nature of humic substances means there will be interaction and destruction of what's there. *sigh* Humic substances lock out heavy metals while making nutrients we want more absorbable, which is why they work so awesomely in the ROOT zone. lol Keep in mind your nutrient/supplement strengths need to be reduced when you start using humic substances with them. I'll bet if you used your same setup without the HA you would notice the difference.
@Rocket Soul Yes! I have read several references to some terpene production working better with certain wavelengths of light. Looking forward to seeing more info on that in the future. The sulfur is a needed part for building the house. Without enough sulfur the house will look odd. (The cannabis will smell/taste/grow differently)
@chilliwilli Companion planting is an interesting subject. There are a number of plants which produce organic molecules in their root zone and, as I stated above, cannabis is capable of absorbing at least some of these molecules. I have no doubts you would see some changes with the right setup and plants.
@acespicoli Good share. I always use a bit of epsom for the magnesium and sulfur. I've noticed a definite terpene boost from the sulfur over many different strains. Carbs and sulfur! (Thanks for participating!)
At the end of the day, I'm only interested in what cannabis can produce as flavors/aroma purely through genetic expression. With cannabis being able to absorb and lock in non-cannabis flavors, the quest involves figuring out which flavors/aromas are from the plant genetics itself, and which of them are actually coming from something absorbed from outside the plant.
While I still need to do further testing, my use of rabbit poo has not carried a flavor with it across strains. Rabbit poo has humic and fulvic components with a very high micronutrient availability. I've only noticed an increase in overall terpenes, along with a much more complex aroma/flavor to them.
Have you noticed any other products/amendments with a persistent flavor like AN pH Perfect Sensi Coco or seabird/bat guano?
1. Cannabis is a dynamic accumulator. This means it has more than the 'passive ionic' uptake method all other plants use to absorb "Stuff" in the root zone. This also means it can (and most often does) absorb molecules and elements it has ZERO need for when building new plant structures. With cannabis, this means things which can affect flavor. As @goingrey mentions, there is something in AN pH Perfect Sensi Coco with a honey flavor to it the plants are absorbing.
2. Genetics of the plant are a shotgun of variables controlling terpene expression. When a plant is given exactly what it needs, the genetic expression of the terpene profile will be the best and most complex version of those genetics. When you don't have enough of a micro-nutrient or are missing a bit of a needed element (sulfur is common), the terpene profile is going to be different.
You can look at it as each plant is a house builder with blueprints. Depending on the quality and quantity of the materials and tools they're given, the resulting house will be different, no? Imagine if a part of the lumber required for the house was replaced with plastic pink flamingos. lol
3. Environmental factors have an effect on terpene complexity and production. Terpenes are a result of chemical reactions which are mostly assisted by enzymes. The thing about enzymes is they create different terpenes from the same materials, with the differences occuring because of changes in temperature, pH and hydration levels. So the same clone grown in the same hydro setups will have different terpene profiles, simply by keeping the pH the same in one res while allowing a healthy pH swing in the other. The variable pH clone will have much more complex terpene production than the steady pH clone.
@greyfader I don't understand why she is applying HA as a foliar in the middle of flowering? The very nature of humic substances means there will be interaction and destruction of what's there. *sigh* Humic substances lock out heavy metals while making nutrients we want more absorbable, which is why they work so awesomely in the ROOT zone. lol
Keep in mind your nutrient/supplement strengths need to be reduced when you start using humic substances with them. I'll bet if you used your same setup without the HA you would notice the difference. @Rocket Soul Yes! I have read several references to some terpene production working better with certain wavelengths of light. Looking forward to seeing more info on that in the future.
The sulfur is a needed part for building the house. Without enough sulfur the house will look odd. (The cannabis will smell/taste/grow differently)@chilliwilli Companion planting is an interesting subject. There are a number of plants which produce organic molecules in their root zone and, as I stated above, cannabis is capable of absorbing at least some of these molecules.
I have no doubts you would see some changes with the right setup and plants.@acespicoli Good share.
I always use a bit of epsom for the magnesium and sulfur. I've noticed a definite terpene boost from the sulfur over many different strains. Carbs and sulfur! (Thanks for participating!)At the end of the day, I'm only interested in what cannabis can produce as flavors/aroma purely through genetic expression. With cannabis being able to absorb and lock in non-cannabis flavors, the quest involves figuring out which flavors/aromas are from the plant genetics itself, and which of them are actually coming from something absorbed from outside the plant.
While I still need to do further testing, my use of rabbit poo has not carried a flavor with it across strains. Rabbit poo has humic and fulvic components with a very high micronutrient availability. I've only noticed an increase in overall terpenes, along with a much more complex aroma/flavor to them.
Have you noticed any other products/amendments with a persistent flavor like AN pH Perfect Sensi Coco or seabird/bat guano?
What would be your recommended sulfur nutrient addition, enough in order to make a difference in smell?@PoweredByLove Cannabis is a bit different than most plants, and a number of things can influence the flavors and aromas it will produce.
1. Cannabis is a dynamic accumulator. This means it has more than the 'passive ionic' uptake method all other plants use to absorb "Stuff" in the root zone. This also means it can (and most often does) absorb molecules and elements it has ZERO need for when building new plant structures. With cannabis, this means things which can affect flavor. As @goingrey mentions, there is something in AN pH Perfect Sensi Coco with a honey flavor to it the plants are absorbing.
2. Genetics of the plant are a shotgun of variables controlling terpene expression. When a plant is given exactly what it needs, the genetic expression of the terpene profile will be the best and most complex version of those genetics. When you don't have enough of a micro-nutrient or are missing a bit of a needed element (sulfur is common), the terpene profile is going to be different.
You can look at it as each plant is a house builder with blueprints. Depending on the quality and quantity of the materials and tools they're given, the resulting house will be different, no? Imagine if a part of the lumber required for the house was replaced with plastic pink flamingos. lol
3. Environmental factors have an effect on terpene complexity and production. Terpenes are a result of chemical reactions which are mostly assisted by enzymes. The thing about enzymes is they create different terpenes from the same materials, with the differences occuring because of changes in temperature, pH and hydration levels. So the same clone grown in the same hydro setups will have different terpene profiles, simply by keeping the pH the same in one res while allowing a healthy pH swing in the other. The variable pH clone will have much more complex terpene production than the steady pH clone.
@greyfader I don't understand why she is applying HA as a foliar in the middle of flowering? The very nature of humic substances means there will be interaction and destruction of what's there. *sigh* Humic substances lock out heavy metals while making nutrients we want more absorbable, which is why they work so awesomely in the ROOT zone. lol
@Rocket Soul Yes! I have read several references to some terpene production working better with certain wavelengths of light. Looking forward to seeing more info on that in the future.
@chilliwilli Companion planting is an interesting subject. There are a number of plants which produce organic molecules in their root zone and, as I stated above, cannabis is capable of absorbing at least some of these molecules.
@acespicoli Good share.
At the end of the day, I'm only interested in what cannabis can produce as flavors/aroma purely through genetic expression. With cannabis being able to absorb and lock in non-cannabis flavors, the quest involves figuring out which flavors/aromas are from the plant genetics itself, and which of them are actually coming from something absorbed from outside the plant.
While I still need to do further testing, my use of rabbit poo has not carried a flavor with it across strains. Rabbit poo has humic and fulvic components with a very high micronutrient availability. I've only noticed an increase in overall terpenes, along with a much more complex aroma/flavor to them.
Have you noticed any other products/amendments with a persistent flavor like AN pH Perfect Sensi Coco or seabird/bat guano?
Douglas.Curtis
Autistic Diplomat in Training
@acespicoli Good share.
greyfader
Well-known member
@Douglas.Curtis "@greyfader I don't understand why she is applying HA as a foliar in the middle of flowering? The very nature of humic substances means there will be interaction and destruction of what's there. *sigh* Humic substances lock out heavy metals while making nutrients we want more absorbable, which is why they work so awesomely in the ROOT zone. lol Keep in mind your nutrient/supplement strengths need to be reduced when you start using humic substances with them. I'll bet if you used your same setup without the HA you would notice the difference. "
i just presented the paper as a point to discuss. i don't spray any foliars on my plants. i agree that her use of it in flower in this fashion may have influenced the outcome.
i have been using and experimenting with the PPK system for 15 years. with 13 years of roots in the water hydro before that. i have tried many things and yes, i have tried it with and without fulvic acid. i do get a better aroma when using fulvic but the question remains; "is the aroma from increased terp production or simply an "injected" one? in oregon, i leased a building in a large storage facility that was full of growers. we saw one another daily coming and going and became friends in some cases. in oregon we all had to have our products tested to sell them. often we were growing the same cuts from the same sources. such as oregon pineapple, a very popular cut there. we had people growing the same cut in soil, soilless, and straight hydro. recirculating and drain to waste. the different methods produced plants with slightly different aromas but, when lab tested, had remarkably similar terpene profiles. so, it seems we were affecting flavor and aroma but not actually changing the terpene profile much at all.
there is a huge difference between researchers and commercial growers. most good growers can grow circles around most researchers. researchers are focused on points in the process whereas growers are looking at the whole picture. i take all research papers with a grain of salt and healthy skepticism.
i realize that fulvic acids are a subset of humic acids but there are striking differences between them. the first is molecule size. they cross cell membranes more easily than humics. fulvics function at all ph ranges not just alkaline ph as do humics.
fulvics are better chelators and i did need to drop my overall nutrient strength using it.
recirculating soilless and soil are two different animals and these products may not behave the same in both.
as @KIS mentioned, hydrology plays a huge role in uptake.
but here is a little article on the differences between humics and fulvics that some may find interesting.
www.earthgreen.com
Keep in mind your nutrient/supplement strengths need to be reduced when you start using humic substances with them. I'll bet if you used your same setup without the HA you would notice the difference. "i just presented the paper as a point to discuss. i don't spray any foliars on my plants. i agree that her use of it in flower in this fashion may have influenced the outcome.
i have been using and experimenting with the PPK system for 15 years. with 13 years of roots in the water hydro before that. i have tried many things and yes, i have tried it with and without fulvic acid. i do get a better aroma when using fulvic but the question remains; "is the aroma from increased terp production or simply an "injected" one? in oregon, i leased a building in a large storage facility that was full of growers. we saw one another daily coming and going and became friends in some cases. in oregon we all had to have our products tested to sell them. often we were growing the same cuts from the same sources. such as oregon pineapple, a very popular cut there. we had people growing the same cut in soil, soilless, and straight hydro. recirculating and drain to waste. the different methods produced plants with slightly different aromas but, when lab tested, had remarkably similar terpene profiles. so, it seems we were affecting flavor and aroma but not actually changing the terpene profile much at all.
there is a huge difference between researchers and commercial growers. most good growers can grow circles around most researchers. researchers are focused on points in the process whereas growers are looking at the whole picture. i take all research papers with a grain of salt and healthy skepticism.
i realize that fulvic acids are a subset of humic acids but there are striking differences between them. the first is molecule size. they cross cell membranes more easily than humics. fulvics function at all ph ranges not just alkaline ph as do humics.
fulvics are better chelators and i did need to drop my overall nutrient strength using it.
recirculating soilless and soil are two different animals and these products may not behave the same in both.
as @KIS mentioned, hydrology plays a huge role in uptake.
but here is a little article on the differences between humics and fulvics that some may find interesting.
Humic vs Fulvic Acids — Earthgreen Products
Humic and fulvic acids are both humic substances (along with humin). However, there are a few key differences that impact their benefits and how each are best applied.
www.earthgreen.com
No, I haven't, because I only have the one flowering room, and everything is watered from the same reservoir. Also, I have so many strains to get through before I die, I only grow one plant of each kind. I work out of town and have to do my watering remotely, so I'm unable to give the attention it would deserve, but it seems to work well enough!
I suppose that if I were to luck out and find that one plant that REALLY does it for me, I would stop going through my collection and just grow that particular plant, then something like you propose could be done. I often wonder if all the additives ( chitosal,microbial mass, dynomyco) are worth the money, but I do regularly get about a pound per plant in 7 gallon pots, so I'll keep on keeping on!
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It is manufactured in BC, maybe it is something to do with cross border shipping? I don't think it is drastically different than a product that was offered by AN, I think it was called scorpion juice or something like that.
I've ordered it from Canada and a local hydro shop stocks it regularly
greyfader
Well-known member
yeah i have some info on manipulating spectrum to enhance terps and cannabinoids, but this thread is about organically sourced inputs so i didn't want to go off topic too much. i'm also studying manipulation of npk mineral ferts or should i say, the withholding of them in ratios at key points in the plants life to enhance terps and cannabinoids. and inducing abiotic stress at a key point to achieve the same thing.
of course, intense light also affects the expression.
i think that we will ultimately find that these secondary metabolites are affected together and simultaneously by the same factors.
Douglas.Curtis
Autistic Diplomat in Training
Jadam is great tech, and a 100% cannabis JLF would be rather awesome indeed. When using clean plants, you would definitely know you were only introducing cannabis tastes/aromas.
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xtsho
Well-known member
Jadam is great tech, and a 100% cannabis JLF would be rather awesome indeed. When using clean plants, you would definitely know you were only introducing cannabis tastes/aromas.
Made with trim from pruning, harvest, and spent males. It didn't smell bad. It had more of a sweet smell unlike some of the really smelly JLF made with other plant material. I know many are intent on purchasing some product with a silly name from one of the many cannabis nutrient companies but I'm not one of them.
I get people attempting to ridicule me for not buying into the specialized cannabis specific nutrient scam but would scoff at using a fertilizer that's actually made from cannabis. Probably because it doesn't come in a shiny bottle. You make it in a bucket for free. People are sure in a hurry to part with their money unnecessarily.
From my research and practice I found that rock dust makes the biggest impact on health and flavor. Granted it takes time to break down but once that happens and it is mixed with humus, flavors and potency reaches full potential 
🪷Om Mani Padme Hum🪷
🪷Om Mani Padme Hum🪷
Douglas.Curtis
Autistic Diplomat in Training
xtsho
Well-known member
Just leaf mold from my backyard sourced from under trees and pieces of decaying wood. I didn't make any this year but I'll use the trim from this years harvest and let it sit until next year.
To make JLF, you need three main ingredients: leaf mold, organic material, and water. The process of making JLF is simple:
- Fill a plastic container with organic material.
- Fill with water.
- Add a handful of leaf mold.
- Cover and leave to process for 3 to 6 months.
- After the material has broken down, you need to filter out the liquid.
- Dilute the liquid before applying to soil or plants
How does your vinegar supplementation looks like? At what state of the grow do you use it?
