BigTokes ~ "How-To" Of The Bio-Buckets 101

[the protege]

To my main man Big toke:
I searched through your writing but you don't seem to mention (or I don't read well enough) about the lights used and how many plants per light. I thought you said something abou 600's which is what I think I want to go with if I can fit 4 plants per 600. I was thinking about doing perhaps 3-4 600's if I get the place I am looking at now, and perhaps try to keep a perpetual harvest going with just a few bubble buckets in the veg room. The problem is I need to seperate 2 lights from the other two. so I can alternate the 12/12 periods so I am not using 2400 watts at once, rather a continual 1200 plus what ever I have in my veg, maybe some fluoros.
Does this sound ok, each 4 buckets would be designated a time slot like 4 week flower and 8 weeks flower, so I could just pick up the tops of the buckets and move them along as to keep the chain moving.This is strictly in the idea phase right now so I don't want you to sit down and waste alot of time, just wondering about the lights and I thought I would throw my idea out to you.

 

[BigToke]

Supp Protégé ~ lighting question: in my setup I have 6 to 8 buckets per 600watt.

Btw concerning the idea, just food for thought? I’ve been there and done that, on the perpetual grow thing ~ it was a lot of work!! But if you have the time to dedicate to it I guess it’s alright ~ myself I like to grow one big ass grow and then kick back and enjoy!!

 

[the protege]

Ok, so what do you think abou 400's instead of 6's over 4 buckets assumin I only veg till about 14-16 inches? I found a deal to get 400's much cheaper than the 600's like 600 dollars cheaper, so I would rather add an extra 400 and try to keep them a little shorter so the whole canopy can be penetrated by the 400.

Sorry if it's kind of silly question, but i like to make sure, never thought about a grow like this before

 

[BigToke]

what do you think abou 400's instead of 6's over 4 buckets assumin I only veg till about 14-16 inches?

Sounds good to me.

 

[Getawaymonkey!]

Congrats BT on the mentor status...couldnt happen to a nicer guy.


I keep reading that scrogging + bio-buckets= NOPE...not happening.

Why?
I know that growth is going to be super fast in bio??
But surely a determined grower could make it work. Right??

Just out of curiousity.....Ive been vegging in my own hybrid biosystem for about 2 weeks now, and growth is TOTALLY UNBELEIVABLE.
aRE THE buds going to grow that fast and huge too???
If thats the case...a SCROG grow wont even be needed for me to get what I need

Thanks to all the personal bio-bucket pioneers that have given me so many ideas to steal and use for my own personal benefit
I look at my plants alot more than I used to with recirculating DWC..Just to see how frigging huge they are now !

 

[BigToke]

For all related subjects about SCROG in the Bio-Buckets I would say to you , I have no first hand experience with SCROG in the Bio-Buckets.go-here!!

 

[Guest]

Dropping in to say hello and see what's cookin', Big Toke. :smile:

I see many information hungry folks here....y'all some lucky people to have found this thread I send all of the folks who ask me about hydro in Big Toke's direction.

I see your real busy BT, just wanted to say hi :smile:

 

[rule35sub1]

Hey BT. I flushed my system and all is well, I let the water sit overnight to lose the chlorine before I flushed. I will keep in touch if anything else comes up. I am very happy so far, thinking about adding another pump maybe, we'll see.

 

[BigToke]

Thanks for dropping in xxbluevelvetxx, your always welcome!! I think we all know what’s cookin’ around here, it’s that sexy new photo of yourself you posted ~ your going to make a whole lot of guys have some restless nights with that pic!!

Thanks for the prop’s, :wink: yea I try to help as many as I can ~ btw I just got done watching “under the Tustin sun” great move, kinka’ makes me want to make a trip!! And enjoy the scenery.



Hey rule ~ good to see everything is going well my friend ~ another pump?

 

[cannakid]

hey BIG T i read all 12 pages on this bio bucket system and maby its becaus i read it all at once or becaus i had a few bongloads in the prosess. but i missed when you talked about how to get the benificial bacteria you speak soo highly of. im seariosly leaning towards just tossing my pots and geting official. just wondering how much you think you invested in you opp. you know a general coast of the whole set up, if you could.

 

[BigToke]

Information!!!

Information!!!

Yea well I’m not really into all that pricing business, besides that those how know me know that I don’t discuss two things and if I do it’s a very rear thing indeed ~ and they are pricing and yield ~ and it’s for two good reasons imo; I have found over time that people that just want to discuss yield are mostly full of bull-shit!! And as for the other one, I have found that the people how are at this level of growing are here because they understand the math-yield-ratio thing ~ I have pre-built entire Bio-Systems before and delivered them to some local newbes and even to this day they do not understand how to run it, it is a constant hassle to tell them and show them how it works!! So as you can see there are many deferent reasons way I do not discuss those issues. Yield and math ratios are the most simplest to workout, if one can work those out on there own THEN there ready to take the next step into building and growing what they want, these two principals will apply to any method of growing ~ as I have said before Plain Your Work, And Then Work Your Plain and the rest will come to you!!

And also before you start asking questions about how something works in a system you should check your tone in how your asking the question. I usually am a nice guy and will answer most any question but when some one pops on here and wants to know about something that I speak soo highly of” and doesn’t put forth any effort to say to in the right, and makes no effort to search for something that I have already spoken about.

The Bio-Bucket Concepts:
• beneficial bacterium
The Use Of Beneficial Bacteria For Water Quality Control
I well try to explain some of the concepts of growing in a bio-bucket system, and sense a lot of people have never heard of "bio-buckets" I'll start with what makes it "bio," I am not referring to the nutrients! I am referring to the beneficial bacterium, there is good and bad bacterium, the good bacterium if put under a microscope is a "short chained bacteria" which are the good one's and feeds off of the bad bacteria which is a "long chained bacteria" which grows when something is non moving and steal and stagnate, that’s way they say to only drink out of fast moving streams because long-chained bad bacteria well build up in a non moving system, so the idea here is to have a recirculating system.
The use of beneficial bacteria populations that can decompose organic sludge as well as bacteria that can convert ammonia and nitrites into nitrates, reduce BOD (biochemical oxygen demand), bind excess phosphates, prevents algal blooms and maintains a microbiological equilibrium in the system. This process has been studied for many years in the water treatment industry and recently has been introduced in aquaculture with very encouraging results. (I well discuss this in more detail later on) so that there is NO DEAD SPOTS in the design of your system.
Now how do you get the beneficial bacterium started in your system, well that's the essayist part of all, you need to give them a home to live in, sense this is a DWC type of system in the bottom of my lid I use an 8" net-pots, DO NOT USE CLAY BALLS, the beneficial bacterium cannot penetrate the heard clay balls, so you won't to use something like "lava rock" or some kind of pumice rock that has tiny little holes in it were the good bacterium can live, Now that you have that just fill up your system with tap water or RO water and live your pump running 24/7 for one week, NOTE: (any thing over 100 gallons, live for two weeks) mine is a 205 gallon system so I fill the system and let it run and in the min time I take my cutting's and by the time thy are rooted the system is ready!

Here’s other one!!!

I am a farm believer in the bio-filled of the system, the beneficial bacterium or "bio-filled" is supported in my system by 8" Net-Pots, I have mounted these net-pots underneath the lids, that way they would be submerged in water as far as possible, which is about an inch from the top, and they are full of Lava Rook, this gives the beneficial bacterium and place to live, this good bacterium well keep your systems water clean and healthy, and there is no need to do a change-out of the systems res.....So I kept the bio-principles and they have preformed great for me!!

and those are just a few ~ if you, go-here!! you will find one of the very first threads that I done here at IC and it was almost entirely devoted to the discussion of beneficial bacterium……….have fun!!!!

However this thread was made entirely for the discussion of the many deferent types of Bio-Systems that there are and the designs thereof and I started off with my design ~ so if it’s a design question that you have I’ll be glad to answer if you ask nicely!! This thread was primarily designed to help those who were interested in this type of growing and to help them put there priorities first ~ as I said this thread was designed to help folks Plain There Work!! and that’s ALL!! If you would like to see how that I work that plain then, go-here!!

 

[cannakid]

ya sorry man like i said i was kind of stoned and pritty tierd, i appoligize for my tone too i fully understand just about avery aspect of you system. im just a bit fuzzy on how it is i aquier this bacterium, does it naturally occure in watter as does the bad types of bactera. i gues id should of narrowed my question to what i actually needed to know but hey im new and always learnig. i realy hav spent more time then just last night reading this post its more like ive been ceeping an eye one it over the last few months. i just last night got registerd

 

[BigToke]

does it naturally occure in watter as does the bad types of bactera.

Your on the right track now!! You do not have to add anything to get good or bad bactera in your system ~ the good and bad bactera are air borne!! Here’s a little something for ya ~ ALL forms of Beneficial Bacteria are much more stronger then the bad, the reason that the Bad Bacteria are winning in other hydro system of growing is because there are not designed to sustain/colonize the Beneficial Bacteria as the air borne spores come into contact with H20/water it transforms itself into Bacterium and therefore the word Beneficial Bacterium ~ just give them a suitable place to live/colonize and they will do the rest……..

 

[Guest]

Greetings bigtoke! Great read, by the way. You and So Quick keep me entertained lately, it seems that's all I read. :smile:

I'm a 40 year dirt farmer, and 5 year sativa farmer in soil - good results but not impressive like you big fellas!

Hydro has always gotten my curiousity up - but your bio systems up the ante. Being a lifelong aquarium enthusiast I got aquainted with bio systems and beneficial bacteria environments, and it seems natural to be able to apply it to our favorite hobby.

That out of the way - I had a little shopping spree at Home Depot:


I have a dozen Rubbermaid Tote tubs laying around, and got a day off to tinker in the shop. One thing led to another and I ended up with this:








I had a couple of live-well airators (360 GPM with foam sleeve filter) so I put one in the res. I picked up a pond pump (130 GPM with flow valve) and attached 3/8" tubing ran to the 10" net pots (2 nozzles per pot). I then attached clear 1/2" tube to one end with a director valve for fluid height/level adjustment and drain. Last was filling the netpot with lava rock.

The tub is 31 gal - 15" fluid depth possible, the net pots are 5 1/2" deep leaving 9 1/2" between the bottom of the net to the bottom of the res.

Okay. Think I got it all. Now, IYHO have I wasted my time? I guess I need to get advice to see if I am on the right track or way off base here. It's not E&F - possibly drip - hoping bio assisted. If we haven't chatted in the room before, those that know me know I only grow personal meds for my wife and me, usually 2 plants (sativa) flowered under dual 400 HPS from seed in soil. I clone and veg under the workbench in shop with two 100w MH and a 150w HPS. I offer that for an understanding of the scale (small) that I am hoping this tub will accomodate. A sample of my last harvest:


A few years ago I got the opportunity to partner with a friend on a seed purchase from a med grower in the Rockies, and was told that our seeds were the now legendary Neville's Haze (supposedly from a Haze male crossed with a NL#5 Haze female, 3/4 Haze). Of course we don't know the validity of this story, but they are definitely sativa with a 120 day flower period in soil, and produce that energetic head buzz that lasts forever (been buzzed for up to 10 hours at times). Is it feasible to try a strain like this in your system, and would that flower time be shortened? I'm thinking of harvest times like So Quick has documented in his threads, keeping a mom going for clones and flowering in this tub to shorten the time between smokable bud harvests.

Your advice and thoughts on my progress or lack of it would be greatly appreciated. I'm either full of it or on the right track?

Sorry for the long post, us old farts get long winded and forgetful.

 

[cannakid]

well im just the average joe but i think this could of gone ben posted in the main indoor hysdro forum seeing as this is a bio-bucket only thred. but hay whatever you know. you probly havent thought of this but aside from the drip method their is an ultra sonic fogger avalable frome sunlight sheds. it basically turns your water and nutrients into a 10-20 micron fog that inreases plant growth by up to 20% and realy lets thoes roots go nuts. it is a great comanion to your standord drip system, if one method failes then you have somthing to fall back on you know

http://www.sunlightsheds.com/fogger_parts.htm

 

[Guest]

Hye cannakid How ya doing with the grow!

Well, my questions are more geared to bio but I may have to alter my reasoning and head back to the drawing board after more research - I was hoping The Master will be able to evaluate my progress and give me a yay or nay! Us grasshoppers need a lot of encouragement & guidance.

Guess we also need a DIY forum for the engineering stoners (er students)!

 

[BigToke]

Sup 1toke ~ after going thru and reading and seeing what you have done, I haven’t much to say on your choice of design at this time ~ so imo after looking and turning this thing over and over in my head {clone, veg, harvest,} and looking down the road with my minds eye of what you mite run into with this particular design ~ and I know you would have me to be honest about this, so in the effort of helping you, let me just point out some of the obvious things that I thank mite give you some trouble:

Here are some of the things that mite be a thorn in your side on this design.

1. Dissolved Oxygen ~ mechanically supplied air 02/bubbles in an enclosed growing environment posses several problems but if one has an watchful eye it can be controlled ~ supplying enough DO for your plaints are the lest of your worries in this type of environment ~ there are two ways one can approach DIY growing systems ~ 1-) is can it be done? And in most cases it can, mj is a very adaptable plant. ~ 2-) is this the best way of doing it? And that depends on the design of it? I am very unfamiliar with what your trying to do?
2. Root Clogging ~ you could get by in cloning stage, veg, and maybe a little of flowering but those two plants are going to have some big roots ~ the problem here is that when the roots are small the air-bubbles can circulate the water but as the roots get larger those big ass roots prevents adequate circulation in the system, the roots will also grow down and around wherever the 02 is coming from ~ those roots are craving DO and they will not grow away from the sour but rather grow towards it!! Thus clogging up your supply or even slowing down the effectiveness of the circulation there of.
3. Water Level ~ this will pose a constant problem as long as you have to fill and re-fill the system ~ put a float valve in it!! That way the water level will remain the same ~ for the Beneficial Bacterium to be the most effective in your system the lava rocks need to always stay submerged under the water ~ the key to making the Beneficial Bacterium happy is to submerge your lava-rock-net-pots almost all the way under, live one inch un-submerge!! That top one inch layer of lava rock must have access to the rooms atmosphere!!
4. Exchange Rate ~ each bucket in my system is filled and empted (exchange rate) eighteen times an hour!! You can get buy with 7 to 10 time an hour ~ with your setup there is no exchange rate so and that adds to more problems that I’m not getting into.

Now let’s focus on the positive side of this: here are some of the modifications that I would recommend if your going to use this system for growing and possibly sustain a bio-field.

• first off I would defiantly modify that tub and outfit it with an float valve!! I would then have that float valve connected to a line that was tap-water!! This will defiantly insure your success rate.
• I would put two PC-Fans in the top led, were the net-pots are ~ I would have one blowing fresh air down into the system and the other pulling the excess gases out of the system, put the fans on the opposite sides of the led from each other. (this would be the biggest key of your success)
• I love the pump idea!! Lol ~ And how you have it going thru those net-pots ~ it would seem very piratical but it’s not!! The Beneficial Bacterium needs surface water!! The pump is supplying water from the bottom of the tub and shooting it directly into the net-pots from the bottom? I don’t think this is a good idea ~ I have never helped any one make a Bio-Bubbler before so you’re the first ~ the biggest problem that I see with this is the surfaces of the water, the top two inches are so important!! Hint: the reason and success behind the Krusty Buckets were that he only filled up the bucket to like 6” to 8” and therefore the bubbles were able to churn the top layer/surface of the water/nutrients ~ but what you have done is filled your tub all the way up and unknowingly made it more difficult to reach that top layer of the water and efficiently churn it ~ and as the roots get larger and larger they will finely block out all bubbles from reaching the surface and therein lies the problem with what your trying to do with your tub!! there was a grower that I new that had a bio-tub like your trying to do and I think his name was nimbe? Anyway he may still be at OG I don’t know? He is the only person that I have every seen do what your trying to do successfully.
• If it were me and that was mine, I would put air-stones in the bottom and one to two power-heads on the opposite sides to fully churn and aureate the surface of that tub, if this is designed right it should grow your plants like crazy!! But imo I will take a little work.

sorry if I’ve sounded like a stick in the mud, but you did ask. Good luck with this and let me know what you diced on………………….if I can be of any other help to ya just let me know.

 

[Guest]

Great stuff BigToke and thank you thank you thank you!
That's exactly what I was hoping for - what looks like it would be a pain and what would work.

First to clear up any misconception/misunderstanding to make sure I understand what you're saying and we're on the same page.

~ after going thru and reading and seeing what you have done, I haven’t much to say on your choice of design at this time ~ so imo after looking and turning this thing over and over in my head {clone, veg, harvest,} and looking down the road with my minds eye of what you mite run into with this particular design ~ Okay - my reasoning was this: could we have a tub that contained the elements of all systems that one could grab and use when needed no matter what system U are currently running - you wouldn't have to take time to build something or run around looking for tools, etc - this would be a stand-by ready and waiting. In other words, if you were E&F or whatever you could grab this "shotgun tub" and use it in a pinch for E&F. If you were DWC, U could grab it in a pinch and use it for another DWC -and so on - sort of a "backup". We wouldn't necessarily have to have it always set up for any certain kind of system, but rather have an immediate backup utilizing only the elements we currently needed for our current system. Of course I was hoping that all of the types could be set up and ready to use to accomodate whatever system you used, and personally I wanted a self-contained portable unit that could be relocated with minimum disruption on your current grow - not having to disconnect/reconnect/attach pumps & lines, etc - and I want the best bio-system possible, hopefully combining the best parts of all systems in one. It could also suffice as a 2-pot test system for troubleshooting and in an emergency type situation maybe save a mom or two if your grow went down. Am I way off base here in my thinking, and am I explaining it sufficiently?

Root Clogging ~ you could get by in cloning stage, veg, and maybe a little of flowering but those two plants are going to have some big roots ~ the problem here is that when the roots are small the air-bubbles can circulate the water but as the roots get larger those big ass roots prevents adequate circulation in the system, the roots will also grow down and around wherever the 02 is coming from ~ those roots are craving DO and they will not grow away from the sour but rather grow towards it!! Thus clogging up your supply or even slowing down the effectiveness of the circulation there of.
I was hoping this would be an all-purpose tub. This concern is going to have to be revisited.

Water Level ~ this will pose a constant problem as long as you have to fill and re-fill the system ~ put a float valve in it!! That way the water level will remain the same ~ for the Beneficial Bacterium to be the most effective in your system the lava rocks need to always stay submerged under the water ~ the key to making the Beneficial Bacterium happy is to submerge your lava-rock-net-pots almost all the way under, live one inch un-submerge!! That top one inch layer of lava rock must have access to the rooms atmosphere!!
I wasn't counting on the tub completely filled - thought just so the bottom of the net pots were touching -DOH!!! It could be filled that high and with the tub lid design, the net pots are about and inch below the rim - but that's an awful lot of water weight on this gauge plastic. If filled to that level the water would be about 3-4 inches below the lip of the tub and the top 1" of the lava rocks would be above the water - but the "fluid level gauge" tube would have to be lenghtened to avoid overflow there. This would amplify the water surface problem. This project may have to be expanded with a control res incorporating float valves and large return waterfall tube per your original specs, and this tub would have to be the flow table or bucket - a dual pot bucket? In that case the pump and airator should be relocated to the control res, leaving just the net pots and tub - basically a large dual bucket?

Exchange Rate ~ each bucket in my system is filled and empted (exchange rate) eighteen times an hour!! You can get buy with 7 to 10 time an hour ~ with your setup there is no exchange rate so and that adds to more problems that I’m not getting into. And this was set up to circulate to the pots like a drip system (a timer is in the parts list but not mentioned, sorry). So again here, the best recommendation would be to revamp this tub into a simple dual bucket? A control res and drain pvc would need to be added for a complete system?

Now let’s focus on the positive side of this: here are some of the modifications that I would recommend if your going to use this system for growing and possibly sustain a bio-field.
first off I would defiantly modify that tub and outfit it with an float valve!! I would then have that float valve connected to a line that was tap-water!! This will defiantly insure your success rate.Yep - control valve(s) are a given at this point no matter what other design changes need to be made.

I would put two PC-Fans in the top led, were the net-pots are ~ I would have one blowing fresh air down into the system and the other pulling the excess gases out of the system, put the fans on the opposite sides of the led from each other. (this would be the biggest key of your success) Got this on the to-do list - check.

I love the pump idea!! Lol ~ And how you have it going thru those net-pots ~ it would seem very piratical but it’s not!! The Beneficial Bacterium needs surface water!! The pump is supplying water from the bottom of the tub and shooting it directly into the net-pots from the bottom? I don’t think this is a good idea ~ The feedlines to the netpots aren't going in from the bottom - they are on each side at the top and 2" tubes directing to the center of the pots. In the pic it might look like the bottom - sorry - basically it is the net pot and a feed line (drip/flood?) on 2 sides (rather than a drip-ring) directed to center over the lava rocks. I used the T-connectors to lock the pots into the lid by snapping them into the pot under the lid, that's why they probably look like they are feeding in the bottom?

Now this is getting long! Time to cut to the chase. The rest of your answers addressed water level, surface, circulation and pumps. The live-well airator is basically a bilge pump with a vertical tube capped with a multiple spray nozzle - it should stick up out of the water spray down onto the surface. Don't know if this was understood or not by your comments I thought this should be clarified. It sticks out of the water and sprays 10 jets down into the surface to provide oxygen for the fish.

Well that's more than enough to ponder and chew up - now to evaluate all of your info and see what gets spit back out!

Again - thanks mate for all your thought and help on this, it appears that all of the components are here but need to be reconfigured to accomodate a revisit of the form and function which will ultimately determine usefullness.

Hats off again to the biobucket guru! :friends:

 

[Guest]

As an after thought mrwags provided this link in a thread and I was surprised at the similarities. Maybe what I actually have is and E&F table hybrid? In any case modifications will be needed for bio - so off to the shop - will take the drawing board with me just in case!


Would help if I put the damn link here!

http://www.landmsales.com/ebb and flow.htm
:friends: :friends: :friends:

 

[BigToke]

I think that I have some what of a better of an idea of what your trying to do know and I wish you the best of luck, ~ hope that there was something that I said that was of use to ya………….good lock!!!!.