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Between Sun and Moon HPS/LED comparison grow.
- Thread starter hazy
- Start date
Who can argue with 85%+ of the hps yield at only 51.25% of the wattage.. and less heat to control doesn't sound like a serious issue to me either. 
Great results my friend, you've drawn a very clear picture for the group! Looking forward to seeing how the next round goes..
-Che
Great results my friend, you've drawn a very clear picture for the group! Looking forward to seeing how the next round goes..-Che
Wow ,, the comparison between wattage and yield has really put it in perspective .... very interesting results .....Ha how much would it be to convert my 4000 watt room to 4000 watts of LED .... ?? do you accept HPS returns for a led discount ??? ,,, HA HA !! i wont hold my breath ...
osecretgardeno
Member
Hey hazy, just wanted to chime in and say a big THANK YOU ...
You've done a top notch job of showing off the differences between the LED and HPS. I have to say that it looks like LEDs may just be the wave of the future ... nothing like nearly the same results with so much less power and heat!
As soon as the cost comes down and is a bit more comparable, I will be picking up some for myself.
Thanks again buddy, I can't wait for the next show
peace,
sg
You've done a top notch job of showing off the differences between the LED and HPS. I have to say that it looks like LEDs may just be the wave of the future ... nothing like nearly the same results with so much less power and heat!
As soon as the cost comes down and is a bit more comparable, I will be picking up some for myself.
Thanks again buddy, I can't wait for the next show
peace,
sg
Darth Fader
Member
Dry weight for Sugar Shack:
hps / led
34.2 / 29.1
hps/led
hps/led
hps/led
hps/led
34.2/29.1 = 1.175
HPS produced 17.5% more weight.
... but at what cost?
And the cost diff = about $200 for HPS vs $700 for LED?
or $700/29.1g = $24.05/g cost for LED
vs $200/34.2g = $5.85/g cost for HPS
I suppose its fair to note that energy cost is not figured into this, but w/ 17.5% higher yield from HPS, that should more than make up the energy cost. A 10 lb harvest under LED is great, but you'd still be giving up nearly 2 lbs!! ($6-8k!!)
One other thing. a single plant comparison is biased against HPS, since it has a much wider footprint. In a multi-light room, you would need 2-3x as many LEDs to cover the room since they have such a narrow penetration. That 10-12 lb harvest can be done w/ (5) 1k HPS lights or (12) LED lights.
Initial investment:
HPS: 5 x $500 = $2500
LED: 12 x $700 = $9600
If yields were identical it would be worth it, but giving up 1.75 lbs per harvest means losing 10 lbs per year!!! (6 x 1.75lbs). Now we're talking $30-$40k per year. Additional energy costs should come in around $5k per year.
Conclusion: Gram per watt contests are great for spec sheets and not much else.
Bottom line: LEDs are NOT worth it.
except you forgot to add all the fans required to cool the HIDs,the hoods and all the other stuff you need,and the real comparison is grams per kilowatt hour.
have fun with the old stuff,LEDS are clearly not for large scale commercial growers.
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G
grumblez
Darth Fader has good points, but for a small guy like me just trying to get my medicine on, things are very nice for LEDs. And lets not forget about having to change bulbs kids...no bulb changing needed...no bulbs...
Pros
=====
so no bulb cost
1/2 the energy consumption
no heat
potentially more potent and quicker ripened buds
cons
=====
higher buy in
smaller footprint
sounds perfect for the guys who are simply looking to fire their drug dealer(s) and DIY themselves into a better place...I dig!
Yo LEDgirl, get this 205W tech to where it costs 200 - 300 and I think there is a winner here for all the personal growers.
Pros
=====
so no bulb cost
1/2 the energy consumption
no heat
potentially more potent and quicker ripened buds
cons
=====
higher buy in
smaller footprint
sounds perfect for the guys who are simply looking to fire their drug dealer(s) and DIY themselves into a better place...I dig!
Yo LEDgirl, get this 205W tech to where it costs 200 - 300 and I think there is a winner here for all the personal growers.
Darth Fader really doesn't have any good points. When your talking about the revenue stream associated with a large op it is narrow minded to make choices based on capital investment costs alone. If your broke and starting a small op it might sense.
He's assuming the ratio of HPS wattage to LED like in this thread is about 2:1. All one has to do to make up for that difference of 17.5% is change that ratio by adding additional LED units even if they have to be mounted vertically around the edges of a grow.
Also just looking at the LED unit you can see there are some gaps between the actual diodes so intensity can be increased by lessening the gaps.
With LEDs the penetration isn't as good, but instead of wasting a bunch of vertical space with HPS one could have two layers or grow chambers with LEDs instead of one.
Considering LEDs use half the power they pay for themselves relative to a HPS in a short period of time. Less heat produced from the LEDs means less investment and less power cost to run ventilation.
Now if you can't afford the capital investment of LEDs, think installing and operating a HPS setups is easier, and don't want to adapt your grow style... then stay with the HPS.
He's assuming the ratio of HPS wattage to LED like in this thread is about 2:1. All one has to do to make up for that difference of 17.5% is change that ratio by adding additional LED units even if they have to be mounted vertically around the edges of a grow.
Also just looking at the LED unit you can see there are some gaps between the actual diodes so intensity can be increased by lessening the gaps.
With LEDs the penetration isn't as good, but instead of wasting a bunch of vertical space with HPS one could have two layers or grow chambers with LEDs instead of one.
Considering LEDs use half the power they pay for themselves relative to a HPS in a short period of time. Less heat produced from the LEDs means less investment and less power cost to run ventilation.
Now if you can't afford the capital investment of LEDs, think installing and operating a HPS setups is easier, and don't want to adapt your grow style... then stay with the HPS.
G
grumblez
yo catman, props brother...was trying to be a good boy in the sandbox...you know I'm down with the D baby...
Darth Fader
Member
You'll still need fans & a scrubber w/ LED grow.
Wrong! If growing is your business, the ONLY comparison is net revenue. That's Business 101 my friend.
Darth Fader
Member
First, nice grow Hazy. I had/have no intention to threadjack, but I've grown tired of some very biased and one-sided comparisons for the purposes of marketing. For the record I'm no hater of LEDs; I'm all for new technology and in many respects it depends on individual requirements and circumstances on whether LED's are a better choice. It's the tactics being used regarding the information and the evaluations/analysis that bother me. Not just the removal of all posts that aren't up to "marketing spec" (propaganda), but the fact that words are put into people's mouths and that the official cost comparisons are very apples & oranges comparisons. To me, the most valuable comparison considers a full room, not a single plant.
To illustrate the value, or lack thereof, of a single plant comparison, consider the following:
This should raise some questions.
The High-Pod
6 x 65 watt CFLs = 390 watts
total of $150 for ballasts, bulbs, and bulb sockets.
This grow yielded 159.6 grams/ 5.7 ounces off a single plant w/ NO VEG period (12/12 from seed)
159.6g (cfl ) / 34.2g (hps) = 4.67 = Four and three-quarters more yield using cfl over hps
159.6g (cfl ) / 29.1g (led) = 5.48 = Five and one-half times more yield using cfl over led
This is obviously a tremendous grow, but when you reduce it to g/watt it's not all that impressive at 0.4g/watt. And who would run a room full of cfls? But yeild-wise, for about a fifth of the cost of the LED panel, you getting 5.5x as much bud.
Guys, analysis is one of the things I do best. All I'm looking for is fairness and open-mindedness. I'm comlpletely ethically opposed to stacking the deck and misinforming people. You have to look at data from several different perspectives to really understand it. But right now, there is a palpable effect to prevent that. So please don't attack me for my desire to add some additional perspective.
If you want to do a cost comparison, stabilize yield b/w the two sides so that revenue is identical.
If you want to do a yield comparison, utilize the same wattage for both grows so that energy costs are identical
Otherwise, from a business perspective where cost and net revenue are what counts, compare net revenue and/or cost per gram.
Hazy, I understand it's not your goal for this grow to do this type of comparison.
Catman, to say I'm the one who is narrow-minded requires a lot of denial and begs a good look in the mirror. If I truly have "no good points", then simply demonstrate that with numbers rather than magically waving your hand to dismiss them. I'm no ideologue, I can be convinced to change my assessments.
To illustrate the value, or lack thereof, of a single plant comparison, consider the following:
This should raise some questions.
The High-Pod
6 x 65 watt CFLs = 390 watts
total of $150 for ballasts, bulbs, and bulb sockets.
This grow yielded 159.6 grams/ 5.7 ounces off a single plant w/ NO VEG period (12/12 from seed)
159.6g (cfl ) / 34.2g (hps) = 4.67 = Four and three-quarters more yield using cfl over hps
159.6g (cfl ) / 29.1g (led) = 5.48 = Five and one-half times more yield using cfl over led
This is obviously a tremendous grow, but when you reduce it to g/watt it's not all that impressive at 0.4g/watt. And who would run a room full of cfls? But yeild-wise, for about a fifth of the cost of the LED panel, you getting 5.5x as much bud.
Guys, analysis is one of the things I do best. All I'm looking for is fairness and open-mindedness. I'm comlpletely ethically opposed to stacking the deck and misinforming people. You have to look at data from several different perspectives to really understand it. But right now, there is a palpable effect to prevent that. So please don't attack me for my desire to add some additional perspective.
If you want to do a cost comparison, stabilize yield b/w the two sides so that revenue is identical.
If you want to do a yield comparison, utilize the same wattage for both grows so that energy costs are identical
Otherwise, from a business perspective where cost and net revenue are what counts, compare net revenue and/or cost per gram.
Hazy, I understand it's not your goal for this grow to do this type of comparison.
Catman, to say I'm the one who is narrow-minded requires a lot of denial and begs a good look in the mirror. If I truly have "no good points", then simply demonstrate that with numbers rather than magically waving your hand to dismiss them. I'm no ideologue, I can be convinced to change my assessments.
Darth Fader
Member
I was actually trying to be both conservative in my estimate and fair. In reality, to match wattage, you'd need (25) 205watt LEDs
25 x $700 = $17,500 (LED)
vs
5 x $500 = $2,500 (HPS)
-$500/ yr for bulbs, you still have to make up $14,000 in energy savings. If you can produce higher yeilds, then you're on to something.
Fader: it doesnt seem like ppl are arguing that LEDs are better for commercial or LARGE shows. more for small tents and cabs.
some other shit ppl are not putting on the table as far as proLEDs go is
Plug and Play, smaller fan ie duct booster or bath fan attached to SMALLER CARBON FITLER...IOW less noise and cheaper (these are all savings on the back end tho). Notheing like a fan to ruin an otherwise stealthy set up. Easier to add SIMPLE DIY CO2 cause of not needing to ventilate... so Cab growers can go CO2 crazy and help boost yeilds....
there's so much shit that no one is talking about when comparing these lights as if it's only about #s and math equations. Im one to ask for numbers too, I want to see results just like anyone else... but Hazy just showed us that there is no front'n on the abilities of LEDGirls lights...
My pennies have been tossed.
Quaity
some other shit ppl are not putting on the table as far as proLEDs go is
Plug and Play, smaller fan ie duct booster or bath fan attached to SMALLER CARBON FITLER...IOW less noise and cheaper (these are all savings on the back end tho). Notheing like a fan to ruin an otherwise stealthy set up. Easier to add SIMPLE DIY CO2 cause of not needing to ventilate... so Cab growers can go CO2 crazy and help boost yeilds....
there's so much shit that no one is talking about when comparing these lights as if it's only about #s and math equations. Im one to ask for numbers too, I want to see results just like anyone else... but Hazy just showed us that there is no front'n on the abilities of LEDGirls lights...
My pennies have been tossed.
Quaity
dubbalicious
Member
Hey hazy
, again thanks for taking the time to do this for us, I APPRECIATE IT!!! I found your thread to be enjoyable and interesting to watch unfold. Happy smoking and stay safe! peace dubba
, again thanks for taking the time to do this for us, I APPRECIATE IT!!! I found your thread to be enjoyable and interesting to watch unfold. Happy smoking and stay safe! peace dubba
Growing with LEDs does nothing to require a smaller carbon filter... unless you have less smell because of smaller plants
less heat= less need to ventilate=smaller fan
a good closed system needs almost no ventilation..
Growing with LEDs does nothing to require a smaller carbon filter... unless you have less smell because of smaller plants
:yahthat:unclefishstick said:
The only thing that sucks is that the best way to vent with LEDs with co2 would be to add a thermostat controler for the fan. That could be a)expensive and b) more dificult to resell if you needed to.
This would require an entirely new way of looking at growing.... a completly different shopping list. Some of which can easily be had at the shop.
