What's new
  • As of today ICMag has his own Discord server. In this Discord server you can chat, talk with eachother, listen to music, share stories and pictures...and much more. Join now and let's grow together! Join ICMag Discord here! More details in this thread here: here.

Basic genetics explained

Only Ornamental

Spiritually inspired agnostic mad scientist
Veteran
Cannabis seems to be an extraordinarily adaptable and flexible species as you point out. I'm thinking there must be genetic coding for that adaptability. Probably not one single gene but it would be nice to nail this quality of the species??
First of all, please excuse if the following is a bit a mingle-mangle of ideas and thoughts...

It's not so much about what genes you have but what you make out of them ;) .
Cannabis, like dandelion and thale cress, is a generalist and grows easily in many places which necessitates flexibility. Look for example at specialists, e.g. a cactus, which grow in niches and extreme (micro-)climates. They force themselves upon nature and developed special 'skills' for the cost of adaptability. Change the environment and they wither. They don't necessarily need more or less genes but they use them differently.
Thale cress is one of the simplest plants. It has a pretty small genome and still grows everywhere because it has all that's needed. Like cannabis, it adapts quickly. Adaptation means, it reacts to changes, interacts with the environment, but becomes also very susceptible to external impacts. I think that's one of the reasons why cannabis is so prone to 'hermaphroditism'. It is an evolutionary advantage (or just unfinished evolution to true dioecy) which in some cases messes with what we want it to be.
From what I've seen, there are two main forms of 'hermaphroditism' in cannabis; very early and very late male flowers on females. Both types can be (I'm not saying that it really is that way) explained by hormonal changes, once during flower induction and beginning stretch, once when senescence sets in. Maybe cannabis as a generalist can't do anything against it without loosing it's flexibility but I think it also gives an evolutionary advantage. Think about it, early male flowers guarantee that there's pollen in the air when the female flowers open; case there are males around, these will be even earlier and out-compete the few 'hermie pollen' by simple number. Late male flowers usually only show on sinsemilla, non-pollinated, females which ensures that the respective plant can set seed. Once males show up again, they will again outnumber the 'hermie flowers' and the population goes back to 'normal dioecy'. And all that only because the plants react easily to fluctuations in their hormone household; no extra genes involved.

Nature is minimalistic, tries to reduce energy usage, time, and space. Create extra genes and hence extra enzymes needs a lot of evolution. That means time, trial and error, wasted energy, and finally the genes and proteins use up space within the cell.
I'm not sure how accurate the following comparison is but it surely comes close to reality: Imagine your house being a single cell. One room is the nucleus containing the chromosomes. These imaginary chromosomes are made of one single looong thread of twin. It would be roughly long enough to span once around the world! The information (genes) encoded on it are like a book written in one long line. Now, your job is to put that thread into said room. But you can't just roll it to a ball of wool but you have to organise it so that you can quickly and accurately access any information needed. Besides that, you also need space in that room to move around, do business and cleaning and such. And most importantly, whatever new you do in your house forces you to first read the corresponding 'chapter' on that thread. You want to cook a meal? Go check the twin. You want new dishes? Go check the twin... You'd soon realise that the less information you have on that thread, the quicker you are and the better everything works. Why waste space, time, and energy on a TV and a microwave oven when you could simply rewire the TV to fry your popcorn ;) .
All cells work like that. It's like Lego bricks; you only have a very few different ones but put them together in the right order and you can make nearly everything.
If you want to react to an external stimulus A, you could use receptor A to sense it, messenger A to get it to the thread (gene), and produce response A. Use B's for B's and C's for C's etc... Your house (cell) will burst or drown in chaos sooner than later. So you use receptor A for stimulus A, B for B BUT combine receptor A and B to sense stimulus C. Same for the messenger etc. Can you follow what I'm trying to explain?
The same goes with switching circuits: You have electricity or you don't. Simple yes or no; only two responses. If you combine two switches you can make and, or, not, nand, nor... to get even more, you could use three switches (which gets complicated), invent a third option (very rare because a lot of evolution), or you use what you have and start reacting to half-currents. Say, ON is 1 volt, OFF obviously 0 V, and the new thing is 0.5 V. You didn't invent something new, didn't generate new gene sequences or proteins or whatever, just adjusted what you already have. That's what nature does. Problem is (and was for quite some time also in electronics and microchips), that it is easy to distinguish between on and off state but half-responses become susceptible to fluctuations. What response do you get when you happen to have 0.25 or 0.75 V? Everything comes with a price :) . And cannabis pays it with 'undesirable' reactions under suboptimal conditions or environmental changes. We shouldn't complain though, most other plants wouldn't tolerate as much as cannabis does. A mistake that makes my cannabis plants stretch a little or loose some leaves kills my orchids right away.

Why invent a new substance to determine the sex of a flower when you could just use the hormones you have. In some species, auxins result in stamen formation and gibberellins in anthers. All you need to do is redistribute the corresponding hormone to where you want stamens of anthers formed. Distribute it to a part of the flower and you get a perfect flower, distribute it to different bud and you get male and female flowers on different branches, or do it to the whole plant and you have 'invented' dioecy.
Look at catchfly (Silene sp.), the sex chromosomes are basically hormone susceptibility switches. There's not even a need to adjust hormone concentrations or proportions; the X gene can even be silent. XX would be 'ground state' or susceptibility to auxins whereas the Y introduces susceptibility towards gibberellins. In both cases you may have one part auxins and one part gibberellins. The XX will perceive it as auxins YES, gibberellins NO whereas XY (Silene acutally have two Y) results in no perceived auxins but much gibberellins. I suspect that cannabis does something similar. Just that it has been found in hemp that females actually contain about 30 times more auxins than males.

And now I think I deviated too much from whatever I originally started to say...
 
Last edited:

oldchuck

Active member
Veteran
Certainly a lot of stuff to think about there, OO, but I'm confused. Did you answer my question? Was that with a yes or a no?
 

Only Ornamental

Spiritually inspired agnostic mad scientist
Veteran
Adaptability isn't the genetic make-up per se but what the organism does with it. There's more than nuclear DNA, mitochondria and chloroplasts have DNA too, there are regulatory mechanisms (i.e. epigenetics) which more or less directly affect DNA, and then there's the whole 'enzyme machinery' which, though encoded by DNA, has some sort of life of its own.
Take a chimpanzee out of his forest and put it on a snowy mountain, in marshlands, on a prairie... it will die. Take a human and do the same; he will simply go on and do what he does best. Where's the difference? 96% (others state ~99%) of our genetic code is identical. Is it the remaining few percentages or something else? BTW these 4% are to a good part 'silent mutations' or are even non-coding sequences and hence don't change anything. Could we make a chimpanzee adapt better or become 'intelligent' by changing some gene sequences?

Got to go, one dog has some troubles... ???
 

Sam_Skunkman

"RESIN BREEDER"
Moderator
Veteran
Cannabis seems to be an extraordinarily adaptable and flexible species as you point out. I'm thinking there must be genetic coding for that adaptability. Probably not one single gene but it would be nice to nail this quality of the species??

I have no proof but I suspect it is many different genes or genes expressions that allow Cannabis to adapt and flourish or at least survive from the Arctic to the Equator from the desert to the jungles, from below sea level to 10,000+ feet. It is almost one of the plant equivalents of the rat, cockroach, or humans, found with/near people and almost everywhere, almost impossible to get rid of. Thanks for that, at least in the case of Cannabis....
As the Cannabis genome projects reveal more and more secrets, maybe we will find out sooner then you think.
-SamS
 

Only Ornamental

Spiritually inspired agnostic mad scientist
Veteran
Knowing the genome is like having a list of the pieces in a computer. Though you still don't know if, where, when, and how many to use. In case of a computer, knowing how many of each piece you need and where to put it suffices to make it run (after proper software installation). In biology, the what is where and when changes all the times... there are a lot of positive and negative feedback-loops too. The best supercomputers still can only simulate a fraction of it. These things are also so difficult to grasp that it gave rise to a bunch of research fields.
To make things simpler for me; here's a quote from Wikipedia
One of the challenges of systems biology and functional genomics is to integrate proteomic, transcriptomic, and metabolomic information to give a more complete picture of living organisms.
Even with all these fields put together, we have so far only caught glimpses of 'reality' and the secrets of life.
'It's difficult' is an understatement. Mendel's rules and general genetics help to understand only for a friction of 'what makes life' or, concerning our mutual interest, cannabis breeding.
 

Payaso

Original Editor of ICMagazine
Veteran
Good morning growers! My apologies for not noticing last evening that we had a troll create some controversy in this thread... who basically insulted everyone on site. I have cleaned up the offending and off-topic posts... so this thread can stay open and a valuable reference for others in future.

It's like this, the dog makes a mess on the floor, you clean it up! :)
 

Only Ornamental

Spiritually inspired agnostic mad scientist
Veteran
It's like this, the dog makes a mess on the floor, you clean it up! :)
With bleach, tarpaulin, and a shovel? That was drastic... :fright: (no critic or judgement intended)

Hope you don't mind me posting an adapted part of my last post (not the dead horse, the other one :) ), might help re-focussing on the topic. Thanks!
_____________________________________________________

There was some trouble regarding the topic 'basic genetics' which, in personal opinion, implies 'basic breeding' and not what folks out there actually do or should do (i.e. clones and cuttings).

From what I see, there are several ways and combinations thereof to make money selling seeds:
- Become a legend by being one of the first to introduce an indoor-suitable hybrid
- Become famous by selling books
- Become hyped by using sophisticated marketing strategies
- Bed yourself on the laurels of others (use for example clones)
- Bet on numbers
- Become a real breeder by use your gut feelings, sixth sense, and mostly your experience

Now, point 1 has already been taken, I didn't get a dime for my publications (scientific ones), I'm not the marketing guy (besides, my findings were deemed as good but non-marketable), I've no knowledge of great clones in my area (I'd have to travel halfway through Europe to get some), I can't count on numbers (no land to grow thousands of plants, no money for a big indoor grow), and
I have not much experience with cannabis breeding. What does that leaf me with? Pollen chucking in my rewired terrarium with seed lines and counting on luck (which may take years or centuries I don't have)...
Knowing the basics of cannabis breeding (not only genetics, but applied growing and crossing 'science') might help me tweak my luck.
No matter if breeding corn, strawberries, or cannabis, there are 'rules' (more from observation and experience than molecular biology and alike) which might help a private grower/breeder on his way to what he considers 'quality genetics'.
We think to know (1 publication, Finola v.s. Purple Kush) that it's not the number of gene copies but the expression levels of enzymes involved in cannabinoid synthesis that distinguishes industrial hemp from drug type cannabis. This implies that an elite clone compared to a 'common' drug type cannabis plant doesn't have more of a certain gene either but regulates them differently. But that's only when looking at a single trichome and at cannabinoids; elite plants/varieties have a higher trichome coverage than usual, something special about their essential oil composition, and some advantages in their growth pattern too. The latter one, in my estimate, can be obtained with basic, traditional breeding. The former two though...
If you don't want to reinvent the wheel, sure enough, you go with elite cuts but 'hobby & home closet breeders' like myself do dream about reinventing the wheel ;) . So how do we do that? I could look at what's been done already: famous hybrids contain (most?) often varieties from Mexico, Columbia, Thailand, and Afghanistan. Does using these in my breeding adventure increase my chances? Or should I simply take good weed (which BTW came from said locations when modern drug marijuana breeding and hybridisation started)? The good plants nowadays would be elite clones... that is, if one doesn't wanted to start from scratch with 'landraces' or possibly un-hybridised local varieties. Now, I'm one of those 'back to the roots' guys (silly, I know, but I missed the 70s) and I can't and won't help it. So what do I do when I want to breed quality? Most genes are linked to a specific chromosome and hence there should be some kind of 'marker' (there always is, though more often on a molecular level invisible to the naked eye) to look for. That's maybe the question many here are looking forward to be answered and not what others do for a living. Besides them making a better one than me with a 'normal' job, I'm not after money or fame, I'm after my own little personal seed line cross for fun and friends.
Hypothetically speaking, if these friends I don't have yet would take cuttings from my 'invention', then it wouldn't be breeding what they do, but maintaining the plant.

That said, lets focus on breeding, phenotypical expressions, and the genes behind, and hopefully we're not starting to run again in circles ;) .
 
I understand things got a bit out of hand. But we just took Ole yeller outside shot him buried him and told everyone to not speak it again. It's a shame too, inside all those deleted pages was real information that could have progressed humanity/medicine had the right person read it. Maybe it was too much against the powers that be. No disrespect a decision is a decision it's just sad to see information deleted. In any respect. The Chinese military burned endless amounts of libraries because of altered beliefs or "vulgar" words.
 
I knew I should have screen captured the thread. I stayed up until 3 am reading and rereading it though. I knew it would happen. But then I had faith it would still be up this morning.
 

gaiusmarius

me
Veteran
I understand things got a bit out of hand. But we just took Ole yeller outside shot him buried him and told everyone to not speak it again. It's a shame too, inside all those deleted pages was real information that could have progressed humanity/medicine had the right person read it. Maybe it was too much against the powers that be. No disrespect a decision is a decision it's just sad to see information deleted. In any respect. The Chinese military burned endless amounts of libraries because of altered beliefs or "vulgar" words.

I knew I should have screen captured the thread. I stayed up until 3 am reading and rereading it though. I knew it would happen. But then I had faith it would still be up this morning.

lets be serious, all that was binned was off topic rantings. the offending party was given some time to cool off and the thread is back on track.
 

Payaso

Original Editor of ICMagazine
Veteran
Yes indeed. I made sure to leave CONTENT, and removed rants. If all you want is to read rants... then this may not be the best place.

I do have to say that overall the ICMag members are super-respectful, kind and helpful!

I truly appreciate how many WONDERFUL people we have on this site that LOVE to talk story and share their experiences...

I spend so much TIME cleaning house and shuffling papers that I rearely get the time to come on here and state the obvious... that you are a great bunch of growers and I'm happy to know you!

Peace is the answer, pot is the medicine!

Yesterday I was AMAZED to see how real trolls operate over there at Fakebook. An astrologer I follow is ill, and her page is filled with over a thousand nasty comments from her regular readers who are totally addicted to her free monthly forecast.

Imagine that, vilifying your astrologer because she is too ill to right a report that you get for free, something which you probably spend about two minutes on.

Hence, the new signature below :)
 

Infinitesimal

my strength is a number, and my soul lies in every
ICMag Donor
Veteran
here,

I think, for anyone taking this seriously, that this stuff is pretty basic...

Polygenic Inheritance, Quantitative Traits
http://www.wisegeek.org/what-is-a-polygenic-inheritance.htm


Plant breeding using genotypic markers, marker assisted selection
[YOUTUBEIF]9fSRav3kpRw[/YOUTUBEIF]

fwiw, one mans rant is another mans lecture, if you get what I am saying (trash/treasure)... "certain people" can be hard to understand and difficult for some to communicate with. I learn from many different people... and I found some value in some of the things that were being discussed (besides the personal attacks and trash talking of course) the other night. I tried my best to keep things on topic and pertinent and kind of felt the baby got tossed with the bath water... but no big deal, it is what it is, and that is all I have to say on it. I appreciate the work you Mods do! :tiphat:
 

Dropped Cat

Six Gummi Bears and Some Scotch
Veteran
I try to keep up with the new posts, but sometime I fall behind in my reading.

Going through this thread it seems not much was lost in the clean up,
however, I'm no scholar, so if something really important was deleted,
I hope it can be re posted sans bullshit.

Good thread.
 

Only Ornamental

Spiritually inspired agnostic mad scientist
Veteran
I try to keep up with the new posts, but sometime I fall behind in my reading.

Going through this thread it seems not much was lost in the clean up,
however, I'm no scholar, so if something really important was deleted,
I hope it can be re posted sans bullshit.

Good thread.
I've read the last posts (approximately 80 two-liners written in one night!) literally seconds before they got deleted and if I haven't overlooked something, nothing of importance, really nothing at all apart form the repeatedly mentioned 'cannabis breeding is like breeding strawberry and not maize', was lost.
 

gaiusmarius

me
Veteran
yeah that was the gist of if. cannabis is like strawberry breeding not like corn. except there was a bunch of casual insults and some slightly incoherent bits mixed in. maybe Tom can give us a bit more of a coherent version, one of these days. i for one appreciate having knowledgeable members like Tom on the site, they are some of our best resources as a site, but we do have to be aware of the general impression that it would create leaving such turbo posting sessions of the above mentioned nature, up. we don't want people to think thats the normal way to operate here, hence the clean up. it doesn't mean we don't know the value of such members, specially on a good day.
 

Dawn Patrol

Well this is some bullshit right here.....
Veteran
Most of this is way above my pay grade and understanding of breeding and genetics but I had some really high hopes for this thread. In my mind Tom has added a lot to ICMag over the years and I hope he continues to contribute in the future.

Hopefully he gets in a few good sessions at his home break, and comes back refreshed and ready to contribute again.
 

Dropped Cat

Six Gummi Bears and Some Scotch
Veteran
I did my first cross 3 years ago.

Nothing special, but shared seeds with other local growers
for feedback. I was excited at the prospect and continue
to this day with the program.

It was the girl I had from storage that was crossed with
sensi star x nycd. With info from cool threads like this I
am able to continue with this project.

I dusted my first hermie a couple weeks ago with pollen
from one of the boys I keep. Contrary to conventional
methods, I know, but the way I see it, why not?
 
Top