Balancing Soil Minerals

[idiit]

Good questions, especially the second "why aren't we publishing mineral content of the produce, etc... to confirm that the minerals ( including trace minerals) are actually getting to the plants and not just lying in the soil in an unavailable form?"

The last worthwhile study of soil mineral content vs mineral content of crops grown, that I know of, was "Variation in Mineral Composition of Vegetables" by Bear, Toth, and Prince. The year was 1948. [this study can be found online, and is reproduced, along with comments, starting on p140 of The Ideal Soil 2014] I do not know of a single other published study comparing a broad range of soil minerals with mineral content of crops grown. is that a little strange, or what? With all of the awareness, interest, and concern about nutrition over the past 77 years since 1948, with all of the articles and studies bemoaning the loss of mineral nutrients in food and mineral depletion in the soil, not one single agronomist or nutritionist or researcher has bothered to test the soil, then test the crops grown in that soil for minerals and mineral-associated nutrients? What's with that?

A few years back I made an attempt; I put together a volunteer group who agreed to have their soils tested and send the reports to me. I would write a soil Rx, they would amend the soil to my recommendations, grow a crop, and then have the crop analyzed for minerals. Out of fifty or sixty free soil Rx's I wrote, perhaps eight people followed through. Rather disappointing, but the little data gathered was quite interesting. For example, Detroit Dark Red beets grown in mineral-amended soil measured, in comparison to USDA averages, an increase of

Protein: +193%
Calcium: +931%
Phosphorus: +77%
Magnesium: +122%
Zinc: +151%
Copper: +140%

Those interested can read more at nutrientdenseproject.com

^ thumbs up m astera for being the "one and only" to reply on this question.

here's the reason why we are not testing for soil fertility:

'they' are poisoning our water, our air and our food.

"they' are bankrupting every sovereign nation with usury (interest) on debt based money called fiat currency.

'they' are destabilizing every place in the world; south America, middle east, Europe big time atm.

there is a group of individuals that comprise less than 1/10th of 1% of the global population that own and control most of the earth's resources, most of the national military, legal, academic, political, and news medias.

big pharma wants us sick so they can make more money treating us for our symptoms. healthy food, air and water are essential to good nutrition. good nutrition is essential to plant and animal health. every organic farmer reading this thread knows the #1 defense for plants against disease is proper nutrition yet no one is focusing on the fact that unless the plant nutrients are available the plant can't access them for nutritional reasons.

there is absolutely no value to discussing plant nutrients if we do not focus on availability of these nutrients.

the only way to confirm availability of the organic soil mineral supplements is to run mineral content analysis of the produce ( bud in this thread).

 

[Ratzilla]

Being I have claimed myself Michael #1 fan.
Here is Michaels site "soil minerals"

http://www.soilminerals.com/Minerals_and_Fertilizers.htm

They carry most of every kind of mineral and lots of organic matter stuff.
Myself I think his prices are more then reasonable.
The fact you can get MOST of everything at good prices at one place works big for me.
Ratz

 

[idiit]

^ cool site. nice job Michael.

 

[trichrider]

working past my previous faux pas on calcium (brain fart), this was what i was suggesting...that without (-) sites to hold cations availability decreases, roots are unable to exchange exudates for nutrients, limiting potential.

 

[Ratzilla]

working past my previous faux pas on calcium (brain fart), this was what i was suggesting...that without (-) sites to hold cations availability decreases, roots are unable to exchange exudates for nutrients, limiting potential.

In the soil minerals handbook they refer to negative sites to holding cations.
Its liken to how big of a bucket is your mix's CEC.
The more negative sites the bigger the bucket.
Ratz

 

[VortexPower420]

So this talk of cec leads me to another question.

I know out container "soil' weighs less the garden soil so I understand the decreasing of the recommendation s given by labs but with our high cec don't we have a bigger wearhouse to store nutrients.

Or does the soil test already take that into account?

 

[Ratzilla]

This is the simplest explanation of the CEC.
From the soil minerals hand book.
http://www.soilminerals.com/Cation_Exchange_Simplified.htm

Ratz

 

[Microbeman]

This is the simplest explanation of the CEC.
From the soil minerals hand book.
http://www.soilminerals.com/Cation_Exchange_Simplified.htm

Ratz

The carbonic acids described are organic acids, of which there are many-many types, which are excreted/created by bacteria, archaea, fungi and plants.

(One might say hypothetically) The real beauty of this system is that the plant creates certain carbon molecules which feed specific bacterial/archaeal species which excrete (exudate) specific organic acids which release (trade for) specific and required (by the plant) nutrients.

The further genius and economics to this system is that specific species of flagellates and/or naked amoebae multiply in response to the bacterial/archaeal population to feed on them but as noted by Michael (et moi) in another thread, they utilize only a small portion of the specific nutrient while excreting the larger percentage as bio-available [ionic] to the roots. (e.g. avg, 30% - 70% respectively).

 

[idiit]

i'm still wanting microbeman and/or Michael to comment on the moringa leaf as an organic supplement. it looks to my naive, unskooled eye to be really special as an additional organic supplement:

https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?threadid=311411

here's a good scientific study with lots of data for a quick look:

THE INTERNATIONAL JOURNAL OF​

SCIENCE & TECHNOLEDGE​

Contributions of Moringa (​

​

​

​

Moringa Oleifera)​

Tree Foliage for Enrichment of Soil Nutrient Status

http://theijst.com/april2014/61.ST1404-133.pdf

 

[trichrider]

i would assume they are as new to moringa as you and i...but looks to have potential as an amendment.
have you sourced moringa yet?

 

[idiit]

The soil–plant system’s capacity to supply or absorb
nutrients is termed soil nutrient bioavailability,

Although extracts from parts of the plant are known to possess diverse medicinal and biological activity on human and animals which gave it the name ”miracle plant”, little is known scientifically about its effect as a bio-organic fertilizer on the hormonal, metabolic and antioxidant potential on plants

it's the fast bioavailability of moringa leaf that i'm so interested in and that almost no one is focusing on. bioavailability is critical; it's essential to plant nutrient uptake.

moringa leaf is high in a lot of minerals, trace minerals. it's got a good n/ca ratio and lots of other essential nutrients. it's got growth hormones par excellence. just go on and on 'cause moringa leaf is a stack of goodies.

it's super available off the 'net. pretty cheap too.

moringa leaf is the most nutritious organic substance on the planet according to many.

trichrider, there are lots of scientific studies with data to look at but i'm a blind pig on the techy stuff. I already see an improvement in my potted gals after 3 weeks. leaf is more like vertical and no browns, spots, etc. happy happy plants. take a look at the data for yourself and moi.

 

[Microbeman]

Sorry Idit, you probably know more about it than I do.

 

[VortexPower420]

Also according to a article I just read it is a good soil builder as it opens its stomates at night and close during the the day for better Photosythsins. I guess it has increased root sugars to increase soil carbon quicker.

If all this is true it is a very versatile plant with many use and could complement a living soil/holistic aproach to gardening and life well.

Only time will tell I guess.

I would be interested in what you find out idiit.

Timbuktu

 

[idiit]

I would be interested in what you find out idiit.

thanks, but i'm just not qualified. we have the talent here at icmag.

so far i'm very happy with results using 1 heaping tbs./gallon container of my rols ( my definition of gallon container is a container that will hold 1 gallon of water).

the moringa minerals are carbon (organic) based as opposed to unavailable inorganic ( rock based).

the bioavailablity issue is resolved by using organic carbon based amendments that are bioavailable much faster than rock based amendments.

this is why i'm a proponent of sea solids that are available in a nature balanced ( read proper proportions) already chelated ( read lithotrophs) by nature in the ocean.

Lithotrophic Bacteria - Rock Eaters

http://dwb4.unl.edu/Chem/CHEM869P/C...edu/microtextbook/metabolism/lithotrophs.html

conversations about organic supplements must emanate from the starting point of bioavailablity but it sure seems to me that this essentially critical facet is being ignored and renders all articles, conversations, tutorials on the subject invalid until they deal with the bioavailability issue.

I use azomite that had been soaked two years in a Lithotrophic solution; read partially pre-chelated rock dust amendment in my recycled organic living soil aka rols. I still use sea-crop. I now use moringa as well.

it's about the bioavailability ppl.

 

[Cep]

If you're dying to know how valuable it is as a supplement you could start by submitting a sample for mineral analysis. Knowing the hormonal content would also be good but I don't know where you could have that assayed. I think you're in the wrong thread though, for that topic at least.

 

[Eighths-n-Aces]

this might be a dangerous question to ask but ......

even if you got a plant sample tested would it mean much? i know it would give you a starting point and thats a good thing, but how consistent could the product be?

FWIW i know fuckall about moringa so it's a very general question

i've read in more than one place that the tests of hay and animal fodder prove that what you harvest in spring and fall have different content because the plant is doing different things at different times, and that every plant will have different nutrient and mineral profiles depending on the soil it's grown in. so will testing one moringa/nettle/comfrey plant give you any more than a general idea of what you are dealing with

i started growing comfrey and nettle years ago but i have always wondered how different the nutrient content is between what i planted and what grows wild in other places

or am i over thinking ?

 

[idiit]

If you're dying to know how valuable it is as a supplement you could start by submitting a sample for mineral analysis. Knowing the hormonal content would also be good but I don't know where you could have that assayed. I think you're in the wrong thread though, for that topic at least.

the links I posted on moringa from scientific studies post all the data and more.

moringa is very high in organic carbon based mineral and trace mineral content.

the hormone content and descriptions are also posted.

moringa has been extensively tested and documented re good stuff content; not just typical nutrient related either. all kinds of good stuff that warrants the pros to get a good look at her.

moringa is a stacked brick house when it comes to nutrition. it is the most nutritious organic source on the planet. this is why in addition to it's other content besides npk and mineral content it is so potentially appealing as a great organic supplement.

everything is documented gentlemen and ladies. that's why I want the experts to get a good look at her and post back what they think. check out the links. I just gave a few. there are countless articles documenting the potential beneficial content of moringa that could be beneficial as an organic soil supplement. I posted a few scientific studies on moringa as an organic soil supplement.


it also emphasizes the bioavailablity factor which is essential to an intelligent discourse on organic supplements.

what's the point of discussing organic supplements including minerals and trace minerals without discussing their bioavailablity?

 

[trichrider]

the mention of CEC brought to mind another question.

Micheal, if you will, the amount of SOM (soil organic matter) optimal for sequestering nutrient cations/anions?....and does elevated SOM reduce need for Albrecht calcium ratio?

i know you didn't come here to dole free advice, so we appreciate anything you happen to just drop....

 

[Cep]

If you’re getting a dry supplement from one source, how do you know it has the same nutritional content as the source used in the study? Are you also able to source fresh material at a reasonable price? The plant is from Nepal, most of us in this thread are in the western hemisphere. What I’m trying to say is that
1.) the fresh material in the study you posted showed a much better growth response and it doesn’t seem easy to source
2.) it would probably be a costly amendment for most of us compared to something like alfalfa
3.) it would be environmentally less friendly than something like alfalfa

Furthermore, microbiology will make nutrients bioavailable with the exception of soluble salts that already are. This is why bringing soil minerals close to ideal levels with basic inputs, then inoculating or feeding existing microbes leads to healthy plants.

It would be great if there was data showing Moringa leaf material containing 50X triacontanol than alfalfa. The answer to the question of whether it is a good amendment or not seems to be yes. How good though? Good enough for me to spend $40 for a pound of dry leaf or spend the same amount on 100 lbs of alfalfa or enough cobalt sulfate to treat an acre? I'm just skeptical.

 

[milkyjoe]

In fact I avoid highly bioavailable or soluble. I want my microbes to act as the stomach of my plant. A high soil ec is not a good thing