Balancing Soil Minerals

[m_astera]

Mr A ( if I may call you that) I agree about the filling, it has a porpus in outdoor ag soils but do you still have the same problem in 16" deep pots?

I know I have a problem of to many roots in my pots sometimes.

Just wondering your thoughts.

Timbuktu

"I agree about the filling, it has a purpose in outdoor ag soils but do you still have the same problem in 16" deep pots?"

My experience has been that minerals always tend to stratify, Ca at the bottom, P at the top. I think the only way one could get around that is by using highly soluble sources of Ca and P to keep them evenly distributed in the growing media, and I think that poses the danger of "salt" buildup.

Really all I can say is time, soil tests, and plant performance will tell. If it turns out that one can grow large crops of excellent cannabis in the same potting media for say 5 years without tilling or mixing the soil, then I was wrong. Based on what I have seen and heard from those growing annual vegetables using permaculture, I doubt it.

Nature does not till the soil, but nature does not grow vegetable gardens or fields of wheat, either.

 

[m_astera]

So do you see ammonium phosphate (ignoring organic cert concerns) being a valuable spring amendment? Or is it so reactive that it will become totally unavailable before the crop finishes? Does chelating it with fulvic acid make it less reactive and therefore available longer?

I would personally love to use it in cool spring soil to get my roots off to a faster start but have always feared the tie up problem

Any soluble phosphate (an anion) is going to react with available cations, probably within a couple weeks of application. As long as the soil is biologically active, the microbes and fungi can and will keep P available as needed. An optimum level of Zinc is also necessary.

 

[m_astera]

Okay, if adding nitrogen in the spring is best for outdoors, how would you add it (type) and in what quantities.

When aiming for maximum growth of annual vegetables I use a ballpark number of 100 lbs/acre [100 kg/ha] added N. This works out to 50 ppm N in the top 6-7" (15-17cm) of soil. To apply that to container growing media, one needs to know the oven dry weight of a given volume, extend that to a cubic measure (cu ft, cu yds, cu meters) and add 50ppm by weight. 1ppm = 1 mg/kg

Ammonia N sources like fish meal or feather meal need bacterial action to "nitrify" ammonia NH3 or ammonium NH4 and make it plant-available, and warm soil (above 50*F) is needed to get that bacterial nitrification working.

If one is growing early spring vegetables, a great N source is nitrate of soda (Chile nitrate), because it is immediately available for plant takeup. USDA organic rules allow the use of mined nitrate of soda for up to 20% of the year's N supply.

Cannabis isn't planted out until the soil is warming up, so I would suggest adding both the ammonia N sources and the nitrate together, perhaps 2 weeks before planting.

 

[neverforget4/20]

Michael,

Thanks for sharing your thoughts on this thread.

I have been recycling my peat based mix for 2 years. I grow year round in 5 to 15 gal fabric pots.
I never tested for siclica but assumed that after several grows it would be depleted. I used some rock dusts and agsil. I believe my approach was effective in increasing Si but when I soil tested K was about 4x recommended content.

In researching silica products I came across studies at Rutgers showing positive outcomes using calcium silicate amendment. I obtained a sample of this type of product. It is refined from slag and the product contains Ca, Si, Mg, Fe. It is sold as a turf, ag and horticultural amendment.

I'm curious about your thought on silica in general and whether the product I'm describing would be useful in a soil utilizing a balanced mineral approach.

Also interested in life on isla Margarita !

 

[Robrites]

m_astera,
Your book got here last week and I have made a start on reading it. Thanks for presenting this information to the world. My soil test revealed an N deficiency, what would you suggest for a late season method of bringing it up? 6.4 ppm...35ppm recommended. Thank you in advance.

 

[oldskol4evr]

were would one purchase this book mentioned,im not college educated and understanding all these mathematical equations is blowing my mind .i love growing my girls in soil and want to create a ideal soil for them and my veg garden,i also want to understand how to amend as needed to acomplish that .it this book explained in layman terms ,that your average village idiot can understand.teaming with microbes was a great book but i had to read it twice to have way understand it

 

[idiit]

there are numerous soil remineralization threads here at ic mag. there have been numerous inquiries into how long it takes for amendments like rock dust ( glacier, volcanic) to be broken down by the microherd so that the minerals are actually available for the plant's nutrient uptake. those questions remain unanswered to my knowledge.

we can discuss mineral supplement proportions ad nauseum but it does not address the critical question; availability.

according to my research it can take at least 10 years before rock sourced minerals are even partially available for the plants nutrient uptake.

"back in the day" they did trace mineral content analysis of the produce, meats, poultry, etc... this is no longer the case (again from what I've gleaned).

brix tests from what I understand do not give out the trace mineral content of the material being tested.

so the questions begging to be answered are:

why aren't we addressing mineral availability to the plants nutrient uptake? not just limited to trace minerals.

why aren't we publishing mineral content of the produce, etc... to confirm that the minerals ( including trace minerals) are actually getting to the plants and not just lying in the soil in an unavailable form?

 

[Robrites]

were would one purchase this book mentioned,im not college educated and understanding all these mathematical equations is blowing my mind .i love growing my girls in soil and want to create a ideal soil for them and my veg garden,i also want to understand how to amend as needed to acomplish that .it this book explained in layman terms ,that your average village idiot can understand.teaming with microbes was a great book but i had to read it twice to have way understand it

I got v2.0 here http://www.amazon.com/Ideal-Soil-20...TF8&qid=1441807755&sr=1-1&keywords=ideal+soil

 

[milkyjoe]

Michael...is your feather meal free of antibiotics and hormones?

And if it is do you sell 50 lb bags.

 

[heady blunts]

i suggest checking the site mentioned in the first post before resorting to amazon.

when purchasing books, i'd rather my money go straight to the author if possible

i'll admit i do have an amazon prime problem tho.

 

[milkyjoe]

Hey Bamboo...if you do the math on the coot mix...crab, neem and kelp you get around 0.5 lb N per yard. 400 lbs per acre furrow slice. Factor on it weighs about a qtr of what field soil weighs and you dumped the equivalent of 1600 lbs N per acre.

Less, of course, my math is off.

100 ppm total N is plenty in my experience. I would love to see yr end N on the coot mix

 

[Ratzilla]

Michael
If I may
Zeolites, I have been using this aluminosilicate for its high CEC and other attributes for years.
I look at it as a condominium with food service for the bacteria that are inclined to set up house in its many porous surface areas.
A friend that I tried to introduce to Zeolite told me that he was afraid of the aluminum that is half of the clay particle. I think it would take a atomic reaction to break the AlSi bond. heh heh heh
It does not come apart very easily is ones of the things I remember .
He said at low levels of pH that aluminum is taken up.
I personally think the pH would need to be around 4 for any aluminum to be taken up and the plant would be looking pretty bad at pH4 or less.
I am also of the opinion that aluminum is one of the most prevalent element in most of our natural soils.
Zeolite holds much NH4 and other cations setting up a plant driven natural cycle of nutriment release.
I had a paper that I did all about Zeolite it had everything I could find about it.
It was like 3-4 pages long. I did it years ago.
I looked and looked and could not find it.
So , I am hoping you know of this high negative charged clay particle and maybe give your take on it.
Thanking you in advance.
Ratz

 

[milkyjoe]

Ratz...I use 20 lb per of bear river zeolite. I see it as a guarantee against a big bloom of nitrate. I want my N to be released by microbes

 

[VortexPower420]

I feel the same way Ratz. I use it all the time and in my soil mixs.I also use it in my compost to hopefully capture some gases during decomp.

I could be wrong but I try and counteract the K with extra Ca.

Timbuktu

 

[Ratzilla]

Ratz...I use 20 lb per of bear river zeolite. I see it as a guarantee against a big bloom of nitrate. I want my N to be released by microbes

I am remembering more about Zeolite.
It has a affinity to attracts NH4+ and K++ the most so by natures way of potassium being instrumental on nitrogen uptake being plant driven.
Its there if the plant wants it.
A condominium with room service.
I find that the zeolite I use is neutral in pH and aids in drainage.

Another question for Michael
Soft rock phosphate
Is it true that with new mining regulations SRP is on the way out.
Something radioactive in the SRP.
I use some so that nitrogen doesn't escape as gas but I cant remember what in it that helps with N gassing off?
I also think of SRP as a favorite food for the fungi.
I bought enough to last a lifetime it wasn't much being I 'am 72.
LOL
Ratz

 

[trichrider]

I feel the same way Ratz. I use it all the time and in my soil mixs.I also use it in my compost to hopefully capture some gases during decomp.

I could be wrong but I try and counteract the K with extra Ca.

Timbuktu

iirc, calcium is providing a home to potassium. you're storing K on the calcium ...is that really counteracting K, or just providing a parking spot till K is again needed?

zeolite does the same thing.

from wiki...

Agriculture

In agriculture, clinoptilolite (a naturally occurring zeolite) is used as a soil treatment. It provides a source of slowly released potassium. If previously loaded with ammonium, the zeolite can serve a similar function in the slow release of nitrogen. Zeolites can also act as water moderators, in which they will absorb up to 55% of their weight in water and slowly release it under the plant's demand. This property can prevent root rot and moderate drought cycles.

 

[VortexPower420]

How can I store K+ on the Ca++. I doesn't work that way. They they would repel each other.

The clay is negativity charges so it stores all elements with a positive charge.

Where it comes from is high in K so that is what it is loaded with but I feel with some gypsum ( S to knock off some of the K and Ca to take its place) all will be balacenced.

Of course this is all speculation and I have no research to back this up I figure it acts like regular clay in the soil. Zeolite is just has more benefits as mentioned.

Timbuktu

 

[trichrider]

you are so right and i am so corrected.

but high Ca isn't fussing with K, perhaps P is.

At a soil pH above 5.5 most of the phosphates react with calcium to form calcium phosphates. Below pH 5.5, aluminum (Al3+) is abundant and will react more readily with the phosphates. Calcium phosphates are relatively more water-soluble than aluminum phosphates. The lack of water solubility of aluminum phosphates means that these compounds are not readily available for plant use. In other words, in strongly acid soils, most of the P is bound and not released. This means the warehouse is locked and no P can get out. Liming to raise pH will open the warehouse and reverse this reaction by supplying carbonates to neutralize acidity and calcium to react with phosphorus. Calcium, when supplied at adequate rates, "knocks off" the aluminum and replaces it with calcium, rendering the phosphate water soluble once again.
You may be asking yourself what this all means.
The nuts and bolts are this: When the P soil test index indicates a deficiency, then the likelihood of response to P fertilizer is high. Choosing not to soil sample or to ignore soil test recommendations for P means missing out on potential yields. If your soil test P level is only 50 percent sufficient then you can only achieve 50 percent of the maximum potential yield. This is before any other yield-limiting factors are encountered. Lack of rainfall only exploits deficiencies. In drier years, it is important to apply fertilizer to eliminate deficiencies to take full advantage of the moisture that is present.


http://www.noble.org/Ag/Soils/PhosphorusBehavior/

 

[Ratzilla]

I didn't even stay at a Holiday Inn
I see Ca ++ competing with K++ for a spot on the negative charge.
I mean calcium is like fat Alpert its huge and takes up much space.

I see the cations that are attracted to the negative charge of the Zeolite
drawing themselves Anions like phosphorus to their + charge.
Ratz
Michael if your inclined to think that I am taking YOUR thread into the unknown just give me a wink.
Again I am going for your #1 fan. ;>)

 

[Ratzilla]

How can I store K+ on the Ca++. I doesn't work that way. They they would repel each other.

The clay is negativity charges so it stores all elements with a positive charge.

Where it comes from is high in K so that is what it is loaded with but I feel with some gypsum ( S to knock off some of the K and Ca to take its place) all will be balacenced.

Of course this is all speculation and I have no research to back this up I figure it acts like regular clay in the soil. Zeolite is just has more benefits as mentioned.

Timbuktu

One other thing that comes to mind about Zeolite.
It is mined in only two places on earth , one of them is in New Zeeland the other in America.
These zeolites are million years old dried lake beds.
One of these has more salts associated then the other because it was from a salt lake.
Thinking NZ.
The other was from a fresh lake and had less salt.
We all know how salty potassium is.
A few thoughts on K
Potassium can get poorly absorb when having to much calcium or ammonium nitrogen, to much sodium.
It seems to me that to much calcium affect almost every other element according to the"Mulders"chart

Another thing is that K oxidizes rapidly in air and that K ions are extremely water soluble.
K competes with calcium and Magnesium and sodium competes with K for uptake.
I mean K gets no respect. lol
Ratz