Balancing Soil Minerals

[Lightweight]

Thanks for the info SurfdOut. I'm sure that's good stuff, but the shipping will kill me, ha ha. I don't think anybody on Maui has Malibu Compost and I'm not aware of any bulk EWC produces either. No worries, I can use bagged soil or make some my own. Thanks for the help again!

 

[maxmurder]

I don't think anybody on Maui has Malibu Compost and I'm not aware of any bulk EWC produces either.

i'm pretty sure i saw malibu compost tea somewhere, like a 1 pound bag, you could brew some teas and use your local bagged soil and still get the benefits of the 'bu's biodynamics. a small package shouldn't cost too much to maui.
https://www.amazon.com/Malibu-Compo...1472406955&sr=8-2&keywords=malibu+compost+tea

 

[m_astera]

Reply to a Troll, Part 1

Reply to a Troll, Part 1

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Much as I dislike the poor use of my time, it appears I need to address some of the erroneous statements from “slownickel's” posts in this thread. [/FONT]

“[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]I have his books. I am in the first one.”[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]False. Mike Kraidy has never been mentioned in any edition of The Ideal Soil. We do have a record of him purchasing the ebook of Ideal Soil v1, but no record of purchasing v2.0, and based on the naive and off-base comments it's unlikely he has read it. [/FONT]

“[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]I know Astera insists on this lab [Logan]” [/FONT]
“[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Their numbers are all over the place” [/FONT]
“[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Most of us use Spectrum in Ohio”[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]False, false, and false. Page 76 of Ideal Soil v2.0 has the only mention of Logan: “There are many good soil testing labs around the world. Soilminerals.com usually sends their samples to Logan Labs, in Ohio, USA.” Hardly insisting on one lab, merely mentioning the lab I often send samples to because I have found them to be inexpensive, accurate and reliable for the last 15 years. I also recommend Dairy One's agro lab for the Mehlich 3, and various other labs for other tests. I work with tests from all over the US and the world. What is important is that the lab have solid experience and consistent results with the Mehlich 3 test, and that the test includes Ca, Mg, K and Na. Sodium is an important component of base cation saturation and a frequent problem when deficient or in excess. [/FONT]

Six or seven years after I first heard of them, Spectrum labs still does not test for sodium as part of their standard M3 soil test. Nor do the operators at Spectrum seem to have a clear understanding of how to calculate CEC, as shown by the confusing and illogical 'explanation' of calculating CEC on their site library. See http://spectrumanalytic.com/doc/library/articles/cec_bph_and_percent_sat and scroll down to Cation Exchange Capacity Calculation.

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Personally I don't know anyone except Mike Kraidy who sends soil samples to Spectrum, so who “most of us” could be that use Spectrum is a mystery. I can't write a reliable Rx without M3 sodium, and I surely wouldn't trust their CEC estimates.
[/FONT]
“[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]...ask for 30 minute shake times”[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]This is just silly. The Mehlich 3 solution is the most acidic and powerful of all common soil mineral extractants. It has a pH of 2.5, and with it's content of fluoric acid and the strong chelator EDTA, it has an effective acidity of around pH 1.5. in addition, the sample is ground to a fineness of <2mm, and shaken thoroughly for five minutes after the M3 solution is added. Can plants grind soil and shake it in acid for five minutes? Anything that is potentially available to the plant is going to be extracted by this standard M3 test procedure. Shaking the sample for an additional 25 minutes could only skew the test results, and make it impossible to write a balanced soil Rx, by dissolving elements that would not be available under any normal growing conditions. [/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]If one desires to know the complete elemental analysis of a soil, the total acid digest (aqua regia e.g.) is the test to use, not a bastardized Mehlich 3 test.[/FONT]

“[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]---Tiedjen and Reams, both aimed at 85% Ca....Albrecht late in his career acknowledged that this was indeed where Ca needed to be brought to reach maximum yields.”[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Two-thirds false. Tiedjens does recommend 85%Ca saturation on p 76 of More Food from Soil Science. In stark contrast, Reams told his students to “Never pay attention to CEC”. Reams' recommendation for soil test results, using the LaMotte soil testing kit and the Morgan soiution, (which is not capable of measuring CEC) do not mention CEC. It is doubtful that Reams even understood the importance of the base cation saturation ratio that Albrecht, Bear, Mehlich and others were studying and measuring, perhaps because Reams' agricultural experience was mostly with the very low CEC (<3 meq)“sugar sands” of Florida. These soils do not have the ability to adsorb and retain even a minimum amount of calcium (750ppm). Regardless, Reams surely never gave a recommendation for Ca or any other element as a percent of CEC.[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Albrecht may have suggested an 85%Ca saturation as a possibility in high pH soils where it was unavoidable. His last published paper, “Soil Reaction (pH) and Balanced Plant Nutrition” (1967), is a tour de force of much of what he learned and taught from the 1920s to the 1960s. Albrecht's final recommendations in that paper were: “hydrogen l0% calcium 60-75%; magnesium 10-20, (7-15)%; potassium 2-5%; sodium 0.5-5.0%; and other cations 5%.” (Note that 10% exchangeable H+ is around pH 6.4). Earlier in the same paper, he emphasized the importance of exchangeable acidity:[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]>>”[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]By extensive tests using the refined acid-clay colloid on which various cations in varied quantities were adsorbed as plant nutrition[/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif] in conjunction with about ten percent of the clay's exchange capacity occupied by hydrogen,[/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif] it was demonstrated that the nutrient cations especially the increasing amounts of calcium offered were taken into test vegetable plants with a [/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]much higher efficiency than when the colloid clay carrying them was near neutral and had no hydrogen as their company (pH 7.0 or higher)”[/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]. [emphasis added][/FONT][/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Said simply, a significant amount of exchangeable hydrogen increases the efficiency of mineral uptake from the soil to the plants. 85% Ca saturation leaves no room for exchangeable H+ unless Mg, K, and Na are deficient or seriously imbalanced.[/FONT]

“[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]The only way to get quality is having more than 90%Ca”[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]False. More than 90% Ca saturation leaves less than 10% of exchange capacity to adsorb Mg, K, Na, NH4, and other nutrient cations, and no room at all for exchangeable H+. 90% Ca saturation would mean that much of the other nutrient cations could only be found in the soil-water solution, easily leached away and lost. The whole point of Albrecht's BCSR method is to have balanced and optimal amounts of the base cation nutrients in exchangeable position, not floating around in solution.[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]To be continued
[/FONT]

 

[m_astera]

Reply to a Troll, Part 2

Reply to a Troll, Part 2

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]More quotes from “slownickel” in this thread[/FONT]

“[FONT=Arial, sans-serif][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]From your posts Michael A., it would seem that you are selling fertilizer and “your” book, which from the reviews on Amazon don't seem very well received by the more educated and experienced.”[/FONT][/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Three editions of The Ideal Soil are listed on Amazon. There are a total of 31 reviews:[/FONT][/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]24 are 5 star[/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]1 is 4 star[/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]1 is 3 star ("good book, but needs an editor")[/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]5 are 1-star reviews, 4 of which were written by Mike Kraidy posting under two different names. The author of the other one star review admitted he didn't understand the book and was confused.[/FONT][/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Anyone who has read The Ideal Soil and goes on to read the 5 star reviews, contrasting them with Kraidy's one-stars on Amazon, can readily see that Kraidy isn't even addressing the material in the book. Humorously enough, Kraidy twice recommends that people buy Steve Solomon's Intelligent Gardener instead, while Solomon freely admits in the first chapter of his book that he learned about soil mineral balancing from Michael Astera.[/FONT][/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]As there are 27 reviewers who gave the book a positive rating, and only 2 reviewers who gave it a negative, one has to wonder who are the “more educated and experienced” Kraidy refers to. [/FONT][/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]FYI, and in the interests of full disclosure, Mike Kraidy posted a 5 star Amazon review of The Ideal Soil and left it up for two years, until he was banned from a forum I moderated for doing exactly what he attempted in this thread: Trying to hijack and divert the thread to his own ends, while slandering and libeling the original poster and thread author.. [/FONT][/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Finally:[/FONT][/FONT]

“[FONT=Arial, sans-serif][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]A lot of what is in his books is not his”[/FONT][/FONT]
“[FONT=Arial, sans-serif][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Many have a hard time with his guessing when there is so much good science around.”[/FONT][/FONT]
“[FONT=Arial, sans-serif][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Apparently you have plagiarized most of what you have written and then “best guessed” the rest?”[/FONT][/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Completely false and libelous. There is no plagiarism in The Ideal Soil or any of my writing. If I reference or quote someone's work, they are given full credit. The Ideal Soil chart is based entirely on original and independent research and experiments that I did between 1999 and 2008, when v1.0 was published.[/FONT][/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]William Albrecht's last published paper, in 1967, listed the following base cation saturation ratios as desirable for high yields of healthy, nutritious crops:[/FONT][/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Hydrogen 10%[/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Calcium 60-75%[/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Magnesium 10-20 (7-15)%[/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Potassium 2-5%[/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Sodium 0.5-5%[/FONT][/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]I am indebted to Gary Kline of Black Lake Organic garden center in Olympia, Washington for introducing me to Albrecht's work in 1999. Once I understood its importance, I set out to read all I could find on the subject of CEC, base cation saturation ratios, soil mineral balancing, and growing highly nutritious crops. Other than Albrecht's work, there wasn't all that much, but I read what was available, mostly published by Acres USA: Charles Walters, Neal Kinsey, Gary Zimmer, Graeme Sait, Arden Andersen, Dan Skow. After reading all of the pertinent literature that I could find, I felt frustrated. In the thirty two years between Albrecht's last paper and 1999 when I started reading on soil mineral balance, it seemed no further progress had been made in finding desirable ratios for any elements besides H, Ca, Mg, K, and Na. Charles Walters, founder and editor of Acres USA, noted in the 1990s that he was aware of the slow progress of integrating more of the important minerals with Albrecht's work and remarked that at this rate it would take another 300 years.[/FONT][/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Equally frustrating: Though all of these authors did a great job of convincing the reader of the importance of soil minerals, not one of them clearly explained how to read a soil test and develop an amendment plan to balance even the base cations.[/FONT][/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]So I took it on as a mission to see if I could figure out desirable ratios for the other seven elements measured on a quality soil test: S, P, B, Fe, Mn, Cu, and Zn and also figure out how to read a soil test and use that info to write a mineral Rx. There were few clues. The consensus seemed to be that though the ratios of Ca, Mg, K, and Na were extremely important and their desired amounts per acre were dependent on CEC, the rest of the elements could get by with minimum amounts that didn't vary regardless of soil type or exchange capacity. I knew that couldn't be right, and started experimenting with various ratios of the metals, boron, phosphate, and sulfur. I tried different amounts of minerals in my own gardens and orchard and on the gardens, orchards, lawns, and pastures belonging to friends. At the same time, experiments with container soil and greenhouse trials were ongoing at Black Lake Organic. By 2005 I had gained enough knowledge and experience to confidently prescribe ratios and amounts of the additional 7 elements based on CEC as calculated from a Mehlich 3 soil test. Gary Kline had a line of nine organic fertilizer blends that he had been selling since the 1980s. Gary knew they could be better, and hired me to rework the formulas so that the minerals were balanced according to what I had discovered. These new mineral-balanced organic fertilizers became Black Lake Organic's BLOOM line. To the best of my knowledge they are still being made using the same formulas worked out in 2005.[/FONT][/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]From 2005 to 2008 I continued experimenting, applying various mineral ratios to different soils and crops, from garlic to pasture to Christmas holly. At the same time, the Bloom fertilizers were being trialed by countless gardeners in the Puget Sound region. Gary's fertilizers were a big hit; all of them performed as advertised and no changes were needed in the ingredients.[/FONT][/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]By 2008 I had gained enough success and confidence with the ratios that I felt it was time to share them, so I wrote the first edition of Ideal Soil and published v1.0 in December of that year. To the very best of my knowledge, v1.0 was the first time anyone had published suggested ratios for P, S, B, Fe, Mn, Cu, and Zn relative to CEC. In the eight years since the first edition, no one has written, called, or shown up on my doorstep to inform me of anyone who had previously published any list or chart or even suggestions of desirable ratios for these elements based on soil exchange capacity. Nor, to the best of my knowledge, had anyone previously written a book that explained how to read a soil test and calculate desired amounts of these eleven minerals to apply to soil based on the soil's exchange capacity. Again, to the very best of my knowledge, the 2008 publication of The Ideal Soil was the first time anyone had written and published something clearly explaining how to do either of these things.[/FONT][/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Plagiarism is a very serious charge. One can be sued and prosecuted for plagiarism. Many careers, scientific, journalistic, in military, government, medicine, academia, and the arts, have foundered and crashed for no other reason than that an author has been shown to have taken other people's work and claimed it as their own. Plagiarism is both stealing and lying, and no honorable or wise person wants to be associated with a liar and thief. Falsely accusing someone of plagiarism, on a public forum such as ICMag, as well as on the world's largest book sales venue, amazon.com (which is arguably a permanent record), is malicious libel; intentional and deliberate libel with malice aforethought. Mighty dangerous territory to be playing in, especially when it is easily provable that all of the critical statements Mike Kraidy has made about The Ideal Soil book and chart and me personally are entirely false, and that he knew they were false at the time he posted them.[/FONT][/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Michael Astera[/FONT][/FONT]

 

[Robrites]

I learned quite a bit from the book and from m_astera's willingness to help members of our forum that read this thread.

So, thanks - good to see you posting again.

 

[idiit]

I am indebted to Gary Kline of Black Lake Organic garden center in Olympia, Washington for introducing me to Albrecht's work in 1999. Once I understood its importance, I set out to read all I could find on the subject of CEC, base cation saturation ratios, soil mineral balancing, and growing highly nutritious crops. Other than Albrecht's work, there wasn't all that much, but I read what was available, mostly published by Acres USA: Charles Walters, Neal Kinsey, Gary Zimmer, Graeme Sait, Arden Andersen, Dan Skow. After reading all of the pertinent literature that I could find, I felt frustrated. In the thirty two years between Albrecht's last paper and 1999 when I started reading on soil mineral balance, it seemed no further progress had been made in finding desirable ratios for any elements besides H, Ca, Mg, K, and Na. Charles Walters, founder and editor of Acres USA, noted in the 1990s that he was aware of the slow progress of integrating more of the important minerals with Albrecht's work and remarked that at this rate it would take another 300 years.

cool.

I've just started working with quartz minerals. the plants seem to like 'em.

so much to learn.....

 

[chilliwilli]

Hi folks
Thanks for the interesting thread.

Searching it i didn't find much about nickel. So what is the roll of Ni in soil?

I tried my first soilmix and added 2 cups of this product



That means i added about 20mg of Ni to about 85 liter soilmix.

One single german homepage about different brands of stone flours calls this product similar to nil mudd in it's compounds, but i didn't find a confirmation for that.

Thx willi

 

[slownickel]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Much as I dislike the poor use of my time, it appears I need to address some of the erroneous statements from “slownickel's” posts in this thread. [/FONT]

“[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]I have his books. I am in the first one.”[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]False. Mike Kraidy has never been mentioned in any edition of The Ideal Soil. We do have a record of him purchasing the ebook of Ideal Soil v1, but no record of purchasing v2.0, and based on the naive and off-base comments it's unlikely he has read it. [/FONT]

Here is the copy of what you send me Michael and what is in your first book.

Anyone caring to read that first book, feel free to PM me.

As for your second book, yes, I bought a copy from Amazon just to make sure you took my name out of it.

 

[slownickel]

Michael, lay off the azomite, the aluminum is affecting your memory.

 

[slownickel]

Good to see you back Michael. Heard you were back in the states.

 

[EastBayGrower]

just picked up the ebook, just waiting for the paypal to clear and get the download, cant wait to get reading!!!

thanks for posting and dont worry about the haters/drama, shits like high school sometimes or grumpy old men lol

keep preachin' the good word, its getting through some thick heads...

 

[MountZionCollec]

Of all the books on soil I have read, the ideal soil has been the most beneficial without a doubt. Astera's recommendations plus a light organic spray every few weeks and things are going perfect on my 9000 square feet of cannabis, 180' of watermelons, 200' of melons, 200' in tomatoes, 70' in squash, and 60' in pickling cucumbers.

 

[slownickel]

Mounted,

I will take my hat off to Astera in getting the calcium message out and about. As well, he did pick up on Reams and high P.

He is quite good at grabbing good information and taking his best guesses at the rest.

If you want a good read, try "More Food from Soil Science". It is out there for free in PDF on the net and copies are around as well.

 

[m_astera]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Much as I dislike the poor use of my time, it appears I need to address some of the erroneous statements from “slownickel's” posts in this thread. [/FONT]

“[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]I have his books. I am in the first one.”[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]False. Mike Kraidy has never been mentioned in any edition of The Ideal Soil. We do have a record of him purchasing the ebook of Ideal Soil v1, but no record of purchasing v2.0, and based on the naive and off-base comments it's unlikely he has read it. [/FONT]

Here is the copy of what you send me Michael and what is in your first book.

Anyone caring to read that first book, feel free to PM me.

As for your second book, yes, I bought a copy from Amazon just to make sure you took my name out of it.

I remember when you wrote to me whining that "your" ideas about calcium weren't attributed to you. Though it was obvious to me that both Albrecht and Tiedjens had covered high Ca saturation much better than you, in order to shut you up I agreed to mention you on one page, but that never made it into print.

"Anyone caring to read that first book, feel free to PM me."

You are offering to send out free copies of my copyrighted work? Truly you are one fucked up individual, and willing to prove it to any and all.

 

[Robrites]

I remember when you wrote to me whining that "your" ideas about calcium weren't attributed to you. Though it was obvious to me that both Albrecht and Tiedjens had covered high Ca saturation much better than you, in order to shut you up I agreed to mention you on one page, but that never made it into print.

"Anyone caring to read that first book, feel free to PM me."

You are offering to send out free copies of my copyrighted work? Truly you are one fucked up individual, and willing to prove it to any and all.

STOP the bullshit - Both of you. The title of this thread is Balancing Soil Minerals. Lets stick to that.

 

[m_astera]

Hi folks
Thanks for the interesting thread.

Searching it i didn't find much about nickel. So what is the roll of Ni in soil?

I tried my first soilmix and added 2 cups of this product

https://www.icmag.com/ic/picture.php?albumid=69080&pictureid=1643342View Image

That means i added about 20mg of Ni to about 85 liter soilmix.

One single german homepage about different brands of stone flours calls this product similar to nil mudd in it's compounds, but i didn't find a confirmation for that.

Thx willi

As I recall, mainstream agronomy recognizes 16 soil minerals as essential for plant growth and reproduction, and Nickel is one of them Humans and animals need at least 31 minerals besides C, H, O and N. see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mineral_(nutrient)

My general rule for micro (trace) minerals in the soil is 1/2 to 1 ppm. As it is difficult and expensive to measure those, and we really don't know optimal levels anyway, I recommend adding several trace mineral sources such as kelp meal, sea salt, Azomite, rock phosphate, fish bone meal, and rock dusts, on the premise that a combination of those will likely provide enough of the traces to provide full nutrition for both plants and animals.

Assuming your soil mix weighs 400g/liter, 85 liters would weigh 34 000 000 mg, and if my math is correct, 20 mg of Ni would equal 1.7ppm. I'd say that's fine.

"Function of Nickel: Nickel is a component of some plant enzymes, most notably urease, which metabolizes urea nitrogen into useable ammonia within the plant. Without nickel, toxic levels of urea can accumulate within the tissue forming necrotic lesions on the leaf tips."

www.pthorticulture.com/en/training-center/role-of-nickel-in-plant-culture/

 

[m_astera]

STOP the bullshit - Both of you. The title of this thread is Balancing Soil Minerals. Lets stick to that.

Hey Robrites-

The subject of the thread was balancing soil minerals until this single troll came in and started slandering and libeling me, and is now offering to give away copies of my copyrighted work. If you don't think I have a right to defend myself against lies, slander, and theft, I suggest you go to a different thread where you are more comfortable.

Michael A

 

[Robrites]

Hey Robrites-

The subject of the thread was balancing soil minerals until this single troll came in and started slandering and libeling me, and is now offering to give away copies of my copyrighted work. If you don't think I have a right to defend myself against lies, slander, and theft, I suggest you go to a different thread where you are more comfortable.

Michael A

This has been a great thread - I purchased your book and have been a consistent supporter of you and the book. I have previously messaged slownickel and told him to stop the shit.

This thread has turned into two school boys arguing over who has the bigger dick.

 

[Madjag]

"Without nickel, toxic levels of urea can accumulate within the tissue forming necrotic lesions on the leaf tips."

Wait, wait, wait........

 

[oct]

I'm friends with Mike K... But also own and dig your book Mike A... so much about plant health is unknown, I sure as shit wouldn't want to be the guy(s) trailblazing the path. I'm big into weight lifting. This is another thing with countless unknowns. Form, nutrition, cardio, intensity, volume. People are continuously trying to seek what is the "right way." You could have two different guys who are both very elite, yet follow oddly different methods.

The problem is, you guys aren't hashing this one out. You'll clash and clash and clash some more. There won't be a real winner in the end and this thread will end up closed.

I have to ask though Mike A, it took somebody "trolling" you for you to start posting again? This thread was rocking and then you quit logging on.