Autoflower Orgy!

[arcticsun]

Oh lol myman chefboy.. im so sorry didnt mean to ignore you, just got so caught up in the other posts i forgot all about it.. Its what happens when one sits too long by the computer and smokes the bloodsugar too low hehehe


The ssh/pkrs are first generation offspring between, so they probably will not auto fully. If you veg them on 22/2 or 20/4 however, I think they should show preflowers but not fully start to flower on you so you can continue vegging them.


I have not grown the ssh/pkr before, be careful with filpping too much with lights because they may go hrm on you. These should be "semi" auto, they may have properties from both parents, some should show preflowers even under 24 hours light while others may need closer to 12/12 regime like the ssh. There will be loads of phenos, if you incross however there should be some fully automatic plants in the next generation.

My advice would be to try to veg under 22/2 or 20/4, I think most males should reveal themselves.

 

[arcticsun]

Strain 313 lol could be real cool if it kept those unique atributes.

hehe yeah idd, but doubt it would

Arctic, you have outdone yourself, my man...brilliant

I believe your thesis may hold merit, and you ruined my hopes for sleeping in this morning...was up early to medicate my aching ass, and thought a short read may help me go back to sleep, but no.

Im glad if I can get some convincing feedback on it myself and put myself to rest about this stuff. Trust me there has been many a sleepless night my friend hehe..

Thank you for the info on the Metasequoia....I have been around this plant since the 80's, when I was a young lad working on a tree farm...planted 5000 of em in the summer of 86...hated the tree at the time, but love it now

hehheehe, Ive never seen it, it stands as sort of a mythical creature in my mind.. If I ever get to see it I just may hug it, become a real treehugger hehehe...

....Metasequoia, Larix and Taxodium have long puzzled me about the deciduous conifer thing....but never puzzled me enough to read why, and now I have...of course it makes perfect sense that the deciduous nature would be an adaptation to polar environments.

They also have an uncommon hardiness to them rapid growth in tough environments...tough as nails...hearts like lions, much like ruderalis.

Ive often found inspiration in reading about old forests. The Metasequoia is simply called "primal tree" in my native tongue, it is one fantastic creature and I think we can learn a lot from studying its shape and behavior.

Interesting read on senescence m8, care to elaborate? Are you saying it is the senescence response to UV light that triggers trich and cannabinoid production to impart protection and hence remission of the senescence trigger???

I dont think even modern science fully understands the complex mechanisms that revolves around senescence. But take one example that we have infront of us in this grow. The leaf mutation in my plants. Ill show you guys that it seems like the plant wants to split the leaf into two different leaves. Which makes sense, because they were given very high wattage of hps light from birth.

Its a very intricate complex process that happens in the plant where information regarding the growing conditions is stored in the genes and expressed in the new growth. There is a certain intelligence to the plant which makes it able to instantly start adapting to the environment. Measuring light levels and angles, temperature, wind even, nutrient and water access..all this is stored in the genes and expressed in the new growth which continuously helps the plant to
adapt. And this happens from seed to death, as long as the cells continue to divide the plant is always adapting.

The point isnt tho how they adapt, the point is that they do. We may not realize how quickly and efficiently they take shape.

Nutrient levels in the meristematic regions also play a role in leaf senescence...particularly low N levels trigger immediate senescence of the lower fans, and mobilization of the the nutrient content to the meristems...curious if the nutrient status of the plant, and the accompanying senescence process can play a role in cannabinoid content? Is N starved weed more potent? I believe it is as I note differences in potency and effects with proper flush....When I really get a girl cleaned out, she not only tastes better, she feels better...better high and effects.

I am curious if this holds any water...

Love the discussion m8, keep it comin

wow very interesting question, we may have to investigate into what happens during down regulation.

Well starved weed starts eating off its reserves just like humans do.

You are twisting my brain something awful here, im no scientist hehehe just a stoned peasant. But let me see if we can find some relevant information on the carbon fixation process to see what happens when a plant is starved.

mossy said autos are more prone to mold if given nutes and that he swears to not using much..

 

[chefboy6969]

Oh lol myman chefboy.. im so sorry didnt mean to ignore you, just got so caught up in the other posts i forgot all about it.. Its what happens when one sits too long by the computer and smokes the bloodsugar too low hehehe


The ssh/pkrs are first generation offspring between, so they probably will not auto fully. If you veg them on 22/2 or 20/4 however, I think they should show preflowers but not fully start to flower on you so you can continue vegging them.


I have not grown the ssh/pkr before, be careful with filpping too much with lights because they may go hrm on you. These should be "semi" auto, they may have properties from both parents, some should show preflowers even under 24 hours light while others may need closer to 12/12 regime like the ssh. There will be loads of phenos, if you incross however there should be some fully automatic plants in the next generation.

My advice would be to try to veg under 22/2 or 20/4, I think most males should reveal themselves.

Thanks buddy,I currently have them in a greenhouse where they receive 13 and 11 but days are getting longer every day almost at 14/10...so I think i will keep them in the greenhouse and see what they do under natural(sun) light..if they don't show sex by end of May(which will mean at least 12-13 weeks of growth from seed)
I will be forced to put them under an HPS for 12/12 to sex them...but I think I will be able to distinguish

thanks for your help
peace
Chefboy

 

[arcticsun]

no probs mate glad to have you with me in the thread hehe, got a little baked last nite and forgot about answering you

Im certain they will show sex before 3 months has passed.

Good luck, keep me posted on the progress m8

 

[arcticsun]

Hey all there is a need to correct some things or specify some things. Had an educational conversation toady with some clever individuals and realized that there is need to clear some things up here.. Basically there has been some stoned babble hehehe

You all saw me saying im not worried about being wrong, dont let the cocky attitude deter you from stepping up and slapping some sense into me. In fact thats the reason for the cocky attitude, to provoke response.


Here we go with some self editing and self critique, please step in yourself and correct me further.

Criticism from any and all angles are highly appreciated btw..

The plants are however very intelligent beings, they adapt very quickly to the environment, this is visible in its great amount of forms. The process of adaption is called leaf senescence. What happens is that the cells that cannot handle the stronger sunlight dies, these cells are replaced in a very systematic and intelligent order in the leaf senescence process by new and better cells.

Leaf senescence is the programmed restructuring and dismanteling of a cell following its maturity..



... or something of that order lololol...

The plant is thus "reprogrammed" and cells are replaced... this process creates genetic diversity.

Ok so its not senescence that creates genetic diversity per se', its mutations, however senescence is an adaptive mechanism in the end that allows for evolutionary survivability.

Its important to realize that senescence is a continuously ongoing process, even in clones, so an old clone passed around for generations will suffer a fair bit of genetic transformation as a result of being grown indoors.

What I mean to say here is that mutations is an ongoing process, mutations provoked by environmental factors. Senescence is the ultimate consequence.. the cellular dismantling and death. However its an ongoing cycle

Senescence shows enhanced expression of two genes, one exhibiting sequence homology with cysteine proteases oryzain y from rice and the other with the protein-processing enzyme of castor bean seeds. It is likely that these genes participate in degradation of proteins and then mobilization of the breakdown products in transportable form from senescing leaves to other parts of the plants

...

Ok so that is the process..

Im sorry abut the misunderstanding regarding causes and effects.



Hope this clears some things up..

 

[UnNatuReal]

Hi arcticsun,

Cool discussions about genetics last days on some threads by you and others.. I have been lurking.

You can still think plants as intelligent being.. They might just get sometimes confused because of mutations

Most likely those leaf structures are just phenotypes caused by environment, not mutations..?

I have given some of my own thoughts about mutations at my ongoing diary, so thats interesting subject to me, even almost all genetics stuff is interesting for me to try to learn more

Been thinking that are mutations just random, or could different sources to mutations give different mutations...

 

[arcticsun]

Hi arcticsun,

Cool discussions about genetics last days on some threads by you and others.. I have been lurking.

hehehe yeh ive learned some things, and im still holding some views despite more educated people then me disagreeing. I think ultimately one needs to express ones level of understanding in order to really learn something. In a way one has to dare to be wrong, one cant really just sit around and go yes yes i agree and i understand when one doesnt
It comes across as a tad arrogant sometimes, but in the end one often sees some type of result. Im an instigator hehehehe, and I love it

You can still think plants as intelligent being.. They might just get sometimes confused because of mutations

Well the question is tho whether the leaf anomalies in my plants is a result of adaptations to the very strong light in the environment. Honestly it looks to me like the leaf is trying to split in two and become two leaves.


Have you noticed that sometimes the plants will not make 7 or 9 fingered leaves, they will only make 3 or 5 fingered leaves. This has to do with how much light is available. If not given enough light they will not produce leaves with a higher number of fingers on.

My plants skipped the 3 fingered leaves entirely and went directy into making 5 fingered leaves.

How does the plant know how many fingered leaves it needs to shoot if it doesnt store information intelligently and adapt. It cannot be reacting mechanically. Naturally it reacts to the environment.

Most likely those leaf structures are just phenotypes caused by environment, not mutations..?

Im not sure I understand, so this is not a mutation?

I have given some of my own thoughts about mutations at my ongoing diary, so thats interesting subject to me, even almost all genetics stuff is interesting for me to try to learn more

It is interesting indeed..

Been thinking that are mutations just random, or could different sources to mutations give different mutations...

I dont think mutations are just random tbh.. imagine the number of flawed alternatives that would have to fail before one succeeds.

 

[paulo73]

Hi there ArticSun!
Brilliant thread!
Much respect for your work.
If you need testers in the UK or Portugal drop me a line. The time is now!
In the meanwhile keep us posted please
All the best for your auto-adventures and everything else
Peace and Harmony

 

[arcticsun]

Hi paolo. Sorry mate, dont need any test growers right now


It seems the leaf mutations are recessive traits in the Indica. They say the expression of this trait is triggered by the strong light.
The indica is as mentioned closely related to the ruderalis that accounts for the trait popping up in different strains. They are naturally related, only not in the more recent generations.


The adaptive mechanisms of the plant is very interesting to me, im not sure I quite understand the circumstance around how these works. Or I know I dont understand it.

The plants adapts quickly to the environment, how exactly is this information stored in the plant?

 

[UnNatuReal]

...

How does the plant know how many fingered leaves it needs to shoot if it doesnt store information intelligently and adapt. It cannot be reacting mechanically. Naturally it reacts to the environment.

That is exactly what I believe genetics does, feel environment by different ways and build up plant based on this knowledge. Mutations mess up their data source.

Im not sure I understand, so this is not a mutation?

...

Pointing at my previous thought, genetics can build plant by many different ways depending on environment. Weird looking things don't have to be mutations.

 

[arcticsun]

Great stuff bro, im coming along, thanks for your time

So just because the form of the plant is different, it doesnt mean the dna sequence is changed in any way. In order for there to be a mutation there must be a change in the dna as far as ive understood. But then the dna must have some sort of cashe memory that it can retrieve information from and store info in. Unless there are other places a plant can store such environmental information other then in the dna.

 

[UnNatuReal]

DNA could be cache memory by itself while RNA being affected by mutations..? You see, there is always DNA behind RNA and older DNA could try to correct errors on new DNA...? Not sure if that work like this, new cells being linked to old cells...

 

[arcticsun]

i think you are right mate, the mutations may occur on the replication process


Here is where im stuck.. the plant is itself reactive to the environments, we all know to put a small fan on seedlings to strengthen the stem...

What mechanisms or terms are used to describe the environmentally reactive process in the plant?


hope that is not a bad choice of words or a bad question..

 

[UnNatuReal]

Well, how about phenotype? Same genotype can give several different phenotypes (I think you know that already, but maybe think things too complicated or something ).

 

[paulo73]

Hi there

Hi there

Hi paolo. Sorry mate, dont need any test growers right now
The adaptive mechanisms of the plant is very interesting to me, im not sure I quite understand the circumstance around how these works. Or I know I dont understand it.

The plants adapts quickly to the environment, how exactly is this information stored in the plant?

No worries ArticSun!
It´s awesome just to be able to watch and learn!
I´m very interested in the adaptive mechanisms of the plants and how long do they take to store those adaptations on their genes.
IMHO it depends from strain to strain. Some take longer to adapt and store adaptations. Some take longer to adapt but are very fast in storing and passing the adaptation to the next generation.
Others are very fast to adapt but they seem to forget to store/pass the adaptation to future generations.
This is all based on experience and observation, so no big scientific supportAlso through experience i´m starting to see a connection the more stable the strains are the easier they adapt to a new set-up/environment and store those adaptations.
If the strain is less stable, more phenos and traits, it´s harder for the plants to adapt and evolve
Maybe the mutations are just adaptations that went wrong but were essential to put the plant in the right path...Am i making any sense?
But then again i will watch and learn from your brilliant work.
Much respect ArticSun!

 

[bigtower]

nice grow man am watching planning something simular after my outdoor grow this year keep it green!

 

[HighHead]

You are the man Arctic.....great work.

Det skal gro i nord en sommer......

 

[arcticsun]

Well, how about phenotype? Same genotype can give several different phenotypes (I think you know that already, but maybe think things too complicated or something ).

hehe yeh i may be over complicating things, I found an article regarding how plants adjust to the climate in just a year. I guess im thinking about spesifically what mechanisms are these climatically adaptive mechanisms. Its of some relevance to me as the climate in my area is very hard.

No worries ArticSun!
It´s awesome just to be able to watch and learn!
I´m very interested in the adaptive mechanisms of the plants and how long do they take to store those adaptations on their genes.
IMHO it depends from strain to strain. Some take longer to adapt and store adaptations. Some take longer to adapt but are very fast in storing and passing the adaptation to the next generation.
Others are very fast to adapt but they seem to forget to store/pass the adaptation to future generations.
This is all based on experience and observation, so no big scientific supportAlso through experience i´m starting to see a connection the more stable the strains are the easier they adapt to a new set-up/environment and store those adaptations.
If the strain is less stable, more phenos and traits, it´s harder for the plants to adapt and evolve
Maybe the mutations are just adaptations that went wrong but were essential to put the plant in the right path...Am i making any sense?
But then again i will watch and learn from your brilliant work.
Much respect ArticSun!

you are making very good sense my friend, thanks for the input. I have learned that not all plant shapes are a result of mutations. One may have two very different phenotypes from the same genotype. Each phenotype may have adapted to its environment to the point of where its hard to recognize it as the same genotype. I wonder if climatic stress over time will trigger an increased number of mutations. Im guessing maybe it will.

nice grow man am watching planning something simular after my outdoor grow this year keep it green!

Cool bigtower, good luck on both the outdoor and the project. Go for it mate, its good fun and very educational to dive into such a project. Im glad I did, even tho the results from this grow seems to be miniscule in terms of actual genetics that I can work with. However I feel im learning a lot. Im very greatful to those that takes the time to explain things to me, despite that im so opinionated.

blessing mate

You are the man Arctic.....great work.

Det skal gro i nord en sommer......

hehehe ohh yess highhead my friend... they say it will be a good summer this year







By the way everyone, I have had one of my cheese/ssh/pehkuruders flip from male to female on me. Its a full reversal. It was a very interesting male tho because he was fully automatic in the first generation offspring between an auto and a non auto. It was also the largest and fastest of all the plants in this grow.

I had at it with a knife.


Cheese/SSH/PKR male to female hermie..






I also have a pehkuruder that has flipped male to female on me. It has much less developed male flowers tho, hardly recognizable at all, ill put up some pics of that on the next update.



If anybody else out there is seeing herm traits in pehkuruders or any other test beans they've received i'd like to know about it. Im afraid i have also found a single banana in the SISU, it may be caused by a light leak i had on that room for a couple of days. We will see how bad it gets, im not panicked about it if its only that single one.

But i have mentioned before repeatedly that the Finx has thrown herms so it doesnt really shock me in any way. Ive been expecting it, it remains to be seen how fruity does she go on me.


The female F1 room has come nicely into flowering now, ill get pics of that up soon aswell. I can see the start of trichs on some of them forming just now.


What comes to my mind at this point is im wondering whether I will rather start over with a more stabile auto base strain then the pehkuruder. Also ive learned that the indicas and ruddies are closely related, so I may decide to go a different way then the one ive started on. I have a nice fully male pehkuruder, im thinking ill cross it to the auto ak47 to see if I can work the herm tendencies out of it.
There is due to be some long hours studying hermafrodism in the months to come. There is a nice thread on it in the breeders forum.

It would be a shame to discard the strain at this point, another thing is what would I have learned unless I learn to tackle this problem when it arises. I know much of the original breeding material was hermed to begin with.


mmmk all, ill get back with a proper picture update as soon as my ass will let go off this couch.

peace

 

[ThcInfused]

simply fantastic.

 

[arcticsun]

hey thcinfused thanks for dropping in


Regarding heritability of intersex traits, here is a very nice thread discussing the subject: http://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=137117